A question re faster lens options for shooting Marching Bands

[DisneySuiteFreak]

Hi all,
I've been away for a while. Long story short I ended up canceling my Disneyland trip at the last minute.
My son is in the marching band and I have been taking picures of them using my Nikon D80 and 70-300VR lens. First off, I was surprised that even though it has VR, the pictures (handheld) weren't coming out as clear as my Pansonic TZ3 w/ OIS. The manual says the Active mode is for when you're in a moving vehicle, so I use normal mode. (However I did try a few test shots using Active it it came our worse.) I know that the quality between the 2 cameras is supposedly not the same, but it did surprise me, and I didn't really know what to say when my husband questioned this very same thing. So I thought I'd post a question regarding this problem and seek suggestions for what I can do to take better pictures involiving a moving target, long distances and variable lighting conditions. (Some stadiums are not as well lit as others and requires me to step up the ISO and then the closer shots end us blown out if I forget to adjust the ISO again.)
This is my son's last year in school and I really want to get as many beautiful, perfect pictures of him and the band as possible. I'm going to post a few shots I took, and ask for your suggestions. These shots were taken using my very stable CF tripod and remote to avoid as much camera shake as possible. The only thing I can think that would hopefully immediately improve the picture would be to get a faster lens. I'm thinking something f2.8. I would prefer one that goes to 300mm because out on the field, anything less doesn't cut it. I'm maxed out a lot even at 70-300. Anyway, let me know what you think. All were shot in Program mode as people here advised me to do since the camera is smarter than me. I'm seriously leaning towards getting a faster lens...Marching season is almost over so please respond quickly -- he's in another band tournament today!

Thanks!

 

[handicap18]

Before you try a new lens, try bumping up your ISO from 200 to 800 or if needed 1600. This will get you from the 1/15th shutter speed (on that last pic anyway) to about 1/60th. 1/15th is way to slow to get any stop action. The blurryness your getting is from the movement of the marchers. The VR will not stop the subject (in this case the marchers) from moving, it will help with you holding the camera and not gettting any camera shake from holding the lens at the long end.

You may have to go into Aperture Priority, set your ISO to 800 or 1600, zoom all the way out to the 70mm end, set your f/stop to 4.5. Then once you start zooming closer the camera will automatically keep the f/stop at the widest point, but you'll get MUCH faster shutter speeds because your using a higher ISO. 200 is WAY to low for these types of pictures.

 

[NostalgicDad]

You mentioned that you were using your tripod as well as using the VR function on the 70-300. You need to turn VR off if you are using a tripod. VR anticipates movement and is compensating for that while active. Since no movement should occur while using a tripod, the VR servo will actually cause shots to turn out as you describe not being so clear. Of course I typically forget to turn it back on when I'm doing handheld shots later on.

 

[Nikel]

You shutter speeds were way slow. You would have gotten better shots with a higher ISO, so you could get a faster shutter speed. What you're getting isn't blurriness or camera shake (check out how clear the signs are!); it's motion blur from the band members moving.

 

[Master Mason]

Another thing is your using patter metering according to the exif data, so it is calculating everything off of all of the stuff in the viewfinder, if you used partial metering or spot metering if you have it, it will give you a better meter based off of the subjects of your shot.

To make this a little clearer, the camera is deciding the exposure including the dark sky, so it is compensating for it and the bright uniforms are getting blown out.

This is the same reason you get a white faced Mickey trying to shoot fantasmic.

 

[AndrewWG]

You shutter speeds were way slow. You would have gotten better shots with a higher ISO, so you could get a faster shutter speed. What you're getting isn't blurriness or camera shake (check out how clear the signs are!); it's motion blur from the band members moving.

I was going to say the same thing. The signs are nicely in focus for the most part, so I think it is motion blur from the subjects. Gotta get that shutter speed faster. Most shots you have here are less than 1/10 second. That is just too slow for moving subjects like this.

I was also going to mention what MasterMason said. I think your subject is blown out due to metering. There is a very large contrast of the bright field and the black background. That can really mess things up.

So, I guess I have nothing to add to this conversation as it has already been said!

 

[DisneySuiteFreak]

Another thing is your using patter metering according to the exif data, so it is calculating everything off of all of the stuff in the viewfinder, if you used partial metering or spot metering if you have it, it will give you a better meter based off of the subjects of your shot.

To make this a little clearer, the camera is deciding the exposure including the dark sky, so it is compensating for it and the bright uniforms are getting blown out.

This is the same reason you get a white faced Mickey trying to shoot fantasmic.

Thanks everyone who responded so quickly. So I'll try spot metering, bump up the ISO, and try Aperture instead of Program mode. I forgot about the VR being turned off when using a tripod thanks to NostalgicDad for the reminder.
I am off to try to get better shots tonight. Will post some results later.
One more thing, when I increased the ISO to 400 in the past, I noticed that the closer the shots were, the more blown out they became. I hope that doesn't happen again tonight, but we'll see. I don't know anything about rendering the photos from RAW mode, and I'm pretty sure some of you probably will tell me to do that to make post processing easier. Does the Nikon software have any Raw rendering sofwtare built in? (The one you have to pay for, not Picture perfect.)

 

[DisneySuiteFreak]

You may have to go into Aperture Priority, set your ISO to 800 or 1600, zoom all the way out to the 70mm end, set your f/stop to 4.5. Then once you start zooming closer the camera will automatically keep the f/stop at the widest point, but you'll get MUCH faster shutter speeds because your using a higher ISO. 200 is WAY to low for these types of pictures.

How do I set the aperture to the widest and keep it that way? I just tried to do it and when I zoomed in it still changed it to 5.6, etc. Thanks, Sorry if it's a stupid question...

 

[MarkBarbieri]

You shutter speeds were way slow. You would have gotten better shots with a higher ISO, so you could get a faster shutter speed. What you're getting isn't blurriness or camera shake (check out how clear the signs are!); it's motion blur from the band members moving.

Alternatively, you could ask everyone to just stop for a second or two. Nah, on second thought, adjusting the ISO and aperture might be easier.

 

[DisneySuiteFreak]

How do I set the aperture to the widest and keep it that way? I just tried to do it and when I zoomed in it still changed it to 5.6, etc. Thanks, Sorry if it's a stupid question...

Sorry to be a pest but if anyone kows how to do this, I'm leaving in a few minutes and would really appreciate the info on how to set the aperture so it stays that way.

 

[NostalgicDad]

Sorry to be a pest but if anyone kows how to do this, I'm leaving in a few minutes and would really appreciate the info on how to set the aperture so it stays that way.

On the 70-300VR lens, the widest aperture at 70mm is 4.5. At 300mm the widest is 5.6. And, as Master Mason mentioned, try different metering instead of Matrix as it has a tendency to overexpose on the D80. Spot metering on the D80 can be tricky but can also result in the most desired effect. I typically use center weighted metering on my D80 for most situations unless I am very certain on what I am attempting to meter on. Good luck!

 

[DisneySuiteFreak]

On the 70-300VR lens, the widest aperture at 70mm is 4.5. At 300mm the widest is 5.6. And, as Master Mason mentioned, try different metering instead of Matrix as it has a tendency to overexpose on the D80. Spot metering on the D80 can be tricky but can also result in the most desired effect. I typically use center weighted metering on my D80 for most situations unless I am very certain on what I am attempting to meter on. Good luck!

Thanks NostalgicDad.

 

[handicap18]

How do I set the aperture to the widest and keep it that way? I just tried to do it and when I zoomed in it still changed it to 5.6, etc. Thanks, Sorry if it's a stupid question...

The widest aperture at 300mm on this lens is f/5.6 so it will change. If you zoom back out to 70mm it should change back down to f/4.5.

 

[ukcatfan]

Does the Nikon software have any Raw rendering sofwtare built in? (The one you have to pay for, not Picture perfect.)

I believe that it has a basic converter, but it does not do much from what I hear. Some people talk about Google's Picasa, but I have never used it. There are also some other free options, but I do not know if they would support the D80 b/c it is fairly new. If you are going to buy something, take a look at Bibble.

Kevin

 

[NostalgicDad]

Capture NX is a great tool for converting the NEF (RAW) files from the D80. The software actually gets a bad rap because a lot of folks don't take the time to really learn how to use it to it's fullest capabilities. I started to abandon it but stuck with it and now use it about as much as I do PS. One of the best and unique features is the color control point utility.

 

[DisneySuiteFreak]

Capture NX is a great tool for converting the NEF (RAW) files from the D80. The software actually gets a bad rap because a lot of folks don't take the time to really learn how to use it to it's fullest capabilities. I started to abandon it but stuck with it and now use it about as much as I do PS. One of the best and unique features is the color control point utility.

Thanks NostalgicDad. I'll try it out...when I get up the confidence to shoot in Raw mode.

 

[DisneySuiteFreak]

Thanks to all who responded and helped! I really appreciate it. Here are a few pics I took last night. They came out really well, I think. I noticed that they do tend to look grainier than what I'm used to, but the alternative is to have blurry photos, so I'll take the grainier/noisier photos over that.

My son said he liked the effect that showed his sticks in motion with my earlier pics. Here are some that shows what he means.

It tended to show the velocity, direction of movement, and it was interesting to see and compare who is on and who is off. Is there any way to capture that sense of motion and still have the rest of the band come out in focus or is it impossible?
Thanks again all!

 

[Steve's Girl]

In regards to the noise, download the free version of Noiseware and that will filter out a lot of the noise.

 

[Khokhonutt]

I've been working on the issue myself. My kids both march with the High School band and my son also marched drum corps this year. Night games and contests were my main motivation to move to a DSLR. Learning some of the basics that allow me to use the manual modes has been key. I've also spent a fair amount of time on this forum and other camera specific forums. From there, I also purchased a field manual for my camera, that basically offered a translation of the owners manual into usable English. Here's what I've found so far.

First, as mentioned above, there is noise filtering software out there. I use NoiseNinja, but there are plenty of other options out there. The results you can get with noise filtering software is pretty amazing, when you have to go up to higher ISO (800/1600) settings. For night shots, I usually shoot at ISO 800, sometimes ISO 1600. 1600 gets pretty noisy with my camera, but it's about the only thing I can use with my longer lens.

I've ditched my kit lens for a couple of lenses that offer one focal length through the entire focus range of the lens. My shorter lens is a Tamron F2.8 17-50mm lens. The F2.8 f-stop lets me shoot much faster at ISO 800 and I like the fact that it's wide, so I can get the full band from the side lines. My longer lens is a Minolta F4 70-200 (affectionately known as the "beer can" lens in the Sony/Minolta world, due to it's size similarity to a 12oz can of beer). I love this lens, but when I break it out for night shows, I almost have to go to ISO 1600. Either that or really make sure I'm only snapping pictures when the band stops moving. There are faster lenses out there, but they are significantly more expensive than what I've spent so far.

If you would like to check out some pictures I've taken, feel free to poke around my Smugmug site. Our Band and Drum Corps gallery is here:

http://maekchu.smugmug.com/Band & Drum Corps

Many of the Troopers pictures and the Mount Pleasant 2007-2008 pictures were taken with our Sony Alpha A-100. There are also pictures my wife and kids took with their cameras, but you can tell mine because most have the Sony name in the EXIF data.

Here are a few of my favorites:

My son, taken with my Tamron lens:

My daughter, also with the Tamron lens:

A couple taken with the Minolta lens from the top of the stadium:

If you haven't visited Smugmug, I like the site because it's easy to view the EXIF (photo data). This gives you an idea of what ISO, f-stop and shutter speed was used on the picture, which helped me reverse engineer some of my problem shots.

I kind of float between full manual mode and aperture priority at this point. I only recently started playing with the aperture priority after accidentally pushing the shutter speed too fast on a bright day, which blew out a lot of the highlights for about half the show. The cool thing about the aperture priority setting is it allows you to manually set the ISO setting, aperture is set with the quick wheel on my camera (but I don't typically play with it during a show), and the shutter speed is automatically set.

The funny thing at this point is that I'm getting shots that I completely missed last year with our point and shoot, which is awesome. But I'm also learning to be more picky about the results. It's a constant learning process, but it's also fun. I'm saving now for a big honking, bright lens, but that will take a while. For now I enjoy playing with what I've got.

Jeff

 

[handicap18]

DisneySuiteFreak, great job. Nice to see you improvement. I bet it feels pretty good. One point though is that for the setting you have with those shots, I would not go below ISO800 and also don't be affraid to use 1600. Like Steve's Girl mentioned, there is noiseware out there that will help a lot. Back in the film days, grain was something that wasn't considered all that bad. Noise is pretty much the same thing, so don't be too affraid of it, especially if you don't plan on doing a lot of cropping. Keep up the great work.

Jeff, nice job with your images.