A probably way to over simplified view at the effect of FP+ vs FP-

[kassonvike]

Let's assume we have 4 families that want to go to Hollywood Studios and that they all have small children and want to ride Toy Story Mania.

Family Alpha is a rope drop family who take advantage of fp to the max and plans to ride TSM as many times as possible.

Family Beta is a rope drop family who tends to only hit rides once.

Family Charlie is not a rope drop family, but it well versed in fp and will ride a ride more than once when the opportunity presents itself.

Family Delta is a Disney World rookie and plans to sleep in and plans to just wing it.

For simplicity sake, lets say that Toy Story Mania has 5 fast passes available for the day (obviously it has more, but obviously there are more than 4 families. Just stick with me here)

What happens to these four families?

First lets check out FP-:
Alpha gets there for rope drop. Runs to TSM, pulls a fast pass and then rides the ride via standard Q. The then use their FP and immediately pull another. Later in the day they come back and grab another FP right before they run out. They got to ride TSM 4 times with three fastpasses and no long waits! Disney World is so awesome!!!!!

Beta gets there for rope drop, pulls a fast pass and then heads to other rides. Later they come back and ride TSM with little to no wait. Fast Pass is cool. Sure glad Disney has it!

Charlie sleeps in. They know DIsney so as soon as they arrive they head straight to TSM to pull a fast pass. They are luckily able to get the fifth and final FP but it is for right before closing. Well, I'm glad we got to ride it, it was cool, just wish we could have rode it again. Also didn't plan on keeping the little ones out this late, but at least they got to ride it.

Delta sleeps in. They start touring the park. Around mid afternoon they stumble accross TSM. Looks cool. Lets try it. Oh, no more fast pass. 60 minute line. Sorry kids, maybe next time. Wow, we paid a lot of money and don't even get to try one of the most popular rides. Maybe this was a mistake.


FP+
Alpha, Beta, Charlie, Delta all schedule TSM for the exact time of day they want to ride it with no stress or running around the park.

Alpha is very angry. We used to ride this ride 4 times with no wait! I'm not sure I should still be coming here?

Beta is pretty happy. I can now decide ahead of time when I want to ridee TSM without having to run to the fast pass q and have it tell me when to come back.

Charlie is very happy. They can sleep in and still ride the ride at any time they chose. They would have preferred to ride it more than once, but that probably wouldn't have happened under the old system either.

Delta is not completely turned off. Assuming they get the marketing material, emails, phone calls, etc. telling them to schedule their fast pass they should be much happier. They get to ride the ride.


So what does all of that mean? I'm guessing many of us on here are Alpha's. Which do you think is the most common type of visitor? I'm guessing Delta's. I myself am somewhere between a Beta and a Charlie.

I'm sure many will disagree but I think FP+ improves things for more people than it hurts. Limiting people to one FP per ride obviously frees up more FP for more people. Disney is trying to maximize profit while keeping as many people happy (or at least content) as possible. They are angrying the Alpha's, but I think helping the majority of the others.

Anyways, I know its and extreme over simplification and there are many ways to tear the above apart. Fire away .

 

[JAMIESMITH]

I think you put it in a nut shell! I'm also somewhere between a Beta and a Charlie. We're going again next January. That will be our first time to give the new system a try. I'm going in with an open mind.

 

[JimmyV]

First lets check out FP-:
Alpha gets there for rope drop. Runs to TSM, pulls a fast pass and then rides the ride via standard Q. The then use their FP and immediately pull another. Later in the day they come back and grab another FP right before they run out. They got to ride TSM 4 times with three fastpasses and no long waits! Disney World is so awesome!!!!!

I don't think the math works here. Assume that they arrive at RD and immediately pull a FP. Their return time would be around 9:30. So at 9:30 they could pull a second FP for TSM, and they do. But their return time will be outside of the 2 hour window, so they will become eligible to pull another one at 11:30. By that time, the FPs would be gone, so there would be no third FP for this ride. Instead, they would pull one for RnR. Under FP+, they not only are eliminated from pulling a second FP for TSM, but they would ALSO be precluded from pulling one for RnR. I think you have to add this into the frustration level of Alpha, Beta and Charlie. Beta likes to ride each ride once. Under FP-, they would do as you suggest, but their second FP would be for RnR and their third would be for ToT. So under FP+. Their touring style would also be downgraded because they would get the one for ToT, but not the one for RnR. Charlie arrives after sleeping in and will get their one FP for TSM just like before, but will not get their FP for RnR, so I think you have to knock them down from "very happy" to "somewhat disappointed. You can't just look at the limitations of FP+. You have to look at tiering as well.

 

[ktlm]

Nope- I'm closest to a Beta. We aren't super users. We get there a little after rope drop (probably 9:10 or 9:15), make the TSM FP run and by the time our FP kicks in around 11:00 to 12:00, or our 2 hour window is up- FPs are usually gone for the rest of the day. We'd love to ride it more than once, but the line has always been posted at 45 minutes or an hour by the time we get back there in the morning and we aren't willing to be in a standby line that long for a ride (although DD has had us wait that long for characters more than once). We've never been able to ride TSM more than once in a day at DHS. We thought we were going to get lucky on our last trip with FP+ when FP- was still working and we pulled a FP- for late afternoon and were all excited about getting 2 rides...but the ride went down and they advised it would not be back up for the rest of the day. So- we've never ridden TSM more than once in a day at DHS.


We HATE FP+. As far as DHS, yes, I like that I don't have to make the morning run to TSM- that was the one nice thing- it saved me from the morning runs at DHS, EPCOT and MK. BUT...RNRR is one of my favorite rides. DD won't ride it. Pre FP+, DH and I would grab RNRR FPs at some point during the day. We would then take turns riding it with our FP. Now, I can't take DD on TSM, which I also like, but also get a FP for RNRR because of the tiers. I can single rider it if the line is short enough- but if the line is too long, I give up RNRR because I don't want to make DH and DD wait while I ride it...so Mom no longer gets to do her favorite ride at DHS unless the single rider standby is short enough. Also DH likes to do TOT, but he is the only one that really likes it. He would often grab a FP at sometime during the day and ride it on his own. Now he can't do a FP+ for that without skipping out on something with DD and I, which he won't do. He also won't stand in the regular line for it and take that time away from being with DD and I. So Dad no longer gets to do his favorite ride in the park. Also FP+ "locked us in" at DHS. One of DD's favorite rides of all of the parks is Star Tours. We weren't going to make our FP+ time because we were stuck in the middle of a long line for Sophia which DD just had to see. MDE at first glitched and we couldn't change our FP+ time. Then, when it finally worked it said there were no available times for the rest of the day at Star Tours- and also said there were no available times for any other attraction for the rest of the day. This was BEFORE noon. So- with the current status- we totally lose a FP+ and then just have to hope the standby line isn't too bad for Star Tours. (That happened before FP- was gone, so I grabbed the KTTW cards, left DH and DD in line for Sophia, and ran to Star Tours--- quite funny that MDE told me there were no available times for the rest of the day, but at the ride I pulled a FP that kicked in 40 minutes later. Now, we would just be out of luck.)

And...lets move over to EPCOT as Beta we aren't happy at EPCOT either. At EPCOT, we would fast pass Soarin and Test Track each once. Many days that was it. If we FP anything else, it was usually one more for Soarin, but we didn't do that often because usually by the time we did Soarin and TT, either Soarin was gone, or it would be for a time we knew we would be over in WS. Now- my "Beta" self is not happy at all because we can't FP both Soarin and Test Track. We have to pick one, and then waste our park time in line for the other, where before we could FP it. . This is likely going to cause strife because Soarin is my absolute favorite ride and I'm not going to want to give that one up, and DD on our last trip decided that she really likes Test Track. Again NOT happy and family harmony is going to be disrupted. DD will win at DHS where she gets TSM and I don't get RNRR- but she isn't winning when it comes to Soarin. Actually, what will probably happen, is where we usually arrive at EPCOT at about 9:15 or 9:20, now, I'm going to have to force everyone to get up earlier, to get there well before rope drop so that we can run to Test Track before the line builds up. DD isn't going to like that option either because she is not a morning person at all.


We definitely aren't Alpha and I definitely would NOT describe us as pretty happy. I would describe us as VERY UNHAPPY. In fact, we are so unhappy, that this is the 1st time in 6 years that we don't already have a trip booked and planned for sometime this fall.

 

[freewill]

I am a (sometimes frustrated) Beta in a family of Deltas.

 

[Good Morning Dewdrop]

I don't think the math works here. Assume that they arrive at RD and immediately pull a FP. Their return time would be around 9:30. So at 9:30 they could pull a second FP for TSM, and they do. But their return time will be outside of the 2 hour window, so they will become eligible to pull another one at 11:30. By that time, the FPs would be gone, so there would be no third FP for this ride. Instead, they would pull one for RnR. Under FP+, they not only are eliminated from pulling a second FP for TSM, but they would ALSO be precluded from pulling one for RnR. I think you have to add this into the frustration level of Alpha, Beta and Charlie. Beta likes to ride each ride once. Under FP-, they would do as you suggest, but their second FP would be for RnR and their third would be for ToT. So under FP+. Their touring style would also be downgraded because they would get the one for ToT, but not the one for RnR. Charlie arrives after sleeping in and will get their one FP for TSM just like before, but will not get their FP for RnR, so I think you have to knock them down from "very happy" to "somewhat disappointed. You can't just look at the limitations of FP+. You have to look at tiering as well.

my thoughts exactly regarding the number of FP you can pull for TSM. We're Alphas and I think the max number we've managed to pull was 2 - and that (as I recall) was on an EMH day - with the first return time being 8:40 (pull another FP)....often TSM FP are gone by 11/12 pm. Could be wrong on that - I have a cold and my brain is fuzzy.

As Alphas we don't love the new system but can live with it - because we're AP holders and thus get down there enough to do everything...

 

[KatieCharlotte]

We're closer to Beta than the hypothetical Alpha because we used RD to ride TSMM on standby once and got one FP for it. Our past trips would not have changed FP+ versus FP- at DHS. But, I hope to soon have at least one coaster riding child. Under FP-, DD and I could have FP TSMM with the non-coaster riders and then grabbed FP to ride RnRc together later in the day after I talked her into it. So we end up frustrated Betas.

I agree that Delta families will end up better off, because something is better than nothing. But this depends on them absorbing FP+ information before they arrive. Educating them about FP- would have had the same result.

Taking the pressure off TSMM by building a duplicate or building more family friendly rides at DHS would have benefited more people.

 

[Laketravis]

I prefer to think of myself as an Omega.

 

[crostorfer]

I don't think the math works here. Assume that they arrive at RD and immediately pull a FP. Their return time would be around 9:30. So at 9:30 they could pull a second FP for TSM, and they do. But their return time will be outside of the 2 hour window, so they will become eligible to pull another one at 11:30. By that time, the FPs would be gone, so there would be no third FP for this ride. Instead, they would pull one for RnR. Under FP+, they not only are eliminated from pulling a second FP for TSM, but they would ALSO be precluded from pulling one for RnR. I think you have to add this into the frustration level of Alpha, Beta and Charlie. Beta likes to ride each ride once. Under FP-, they would do as you suggest, but their second FP would be for RnR and their third would be for ToT. So under FP+. Their touring style would also be downgraded because they would get the one for ToT, but not the one for RnR. Charlie arrives after sleeping in and will get their one FP for TSM just like before, but will not get their FP for RnR, so I think you have to knock them down from "very happy" to "somewhat disappointed. You can't just look at the limitations of FP+. You have to look at tiering as well.

You, Sir, are BRILLIANT!

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

And will the Delta family still be happy when they finish TSMM and their other 2 FP's and then wander their way back to ToT and RnR and stand there and say "how do we get to ride these now? Or that other Star Wars ride we passed? We picked FP's for the Muppets 'cuz the movie just came out so that must be popular and for The Great Movie ride because it says it's 'slow, dark and scary' so that must be really good too and they needed FP according to Disney but now we find much longer waits at ToT, Star Tours and RnR than the other rides we FP'd."

 

[neptuneflame]

I like your analogy, and we are also between Beta and Charlie (my DH will be late to his own funeral). I'm looking forward to trying out FP+ and developing my own opinion. I'm keeping an open mind.

I think what's missing in your analogy (and what Disney is missing) is that the Alphas are their repeat customers. They're also mini-marketer machines, acting as Unofficial Disney Ambassadors for their friends and neighbors.

I know my trip reports have convinced several friends and family members to take vacations to Disney and I've always been delighted to offer advice when asked. However, this time, I can only shrug and hope for the best! It's a game-changing risk that I hope is more "flash-forward" than "tailies".

 

[wisblue]

We are like Betas in that we would be there at RD and are satisfied doing everything just once. But, we would do TSMM, TOT, and RNRC in less than an hour without using a FP and then move on to the rest of the park.

I guess that makes us Betamax.

 

[Q-man]

Delta sleeps in. They start touring the park. Around mid afternoon they stumble accross TSM. Looks cool. Lets try it. Oh, no more fast pass. 60 minute line.

So, this is during the off season?

 

[freewill]

We are like Betas in that we would be there at RD and are satisfied doing everything just once. But, we would do TSMM, TOT, and RNRC in less than an hour without using a FP and then move on to the rest of the park.

I guess that makes us Betamax.

Awesome !

 

[Footnotegirl]

We're either beta's or charlie's depending on how we feel that day. Hubby and I just got back from WDW. We were there first week of February, our first trip with our little girl just in advance of her 2nd birthday.
We REALLY liked FP+ and the Magic Bands. I like to plan ahead at any rate. Even though our trip was booked only 34 days from departure (we found a deal and both had vacation time), we were able to get reservations for all the dining that we wanted, INCLUDING FP+'s for BOG lunchtime.
I frankly hate the stress and run run run to make rope drop and head for the FP machines to get slips. The family that we usually vacation with were ABSOLUTELY alpha's and while yes, they got on every ride they wanted it always seemed like they missed so much and were constantly zipping back and forth across the park to make their FP times.
With FP+, I was able to schedule the stuff that I knew we absolutely didn't want to miss AND make sure that it was during times that worked with our meal times and when our daughter would be at her best. I could look at the app ahead of time to see which rides were likely to have the longest wait times and so make educated guesses as to which attractions I'd really want to skip the lines for. There was no "OMG, we slept past our alarm and now we won't make rope drop and either DD doesn't meet Rapunzel or we're stuck in a terrible line with an increasingly frustrated and upset toddler!" I also found that changing times was very easy. Our lunch reservation ran late, and I was able to move my Haunted Mansion FP to a later time at the park on the fly.
We made it onto lots of rides, even those we didn't have fastpasses for, some several times. Granted, first week of February is a slow time, but we weren't getting in ANY line over 15 minutes lest we suffer the wrath of the tiny one.
The only problem we had with the magic band at all was that at one food counter, the reader was glitching. So the cast member gave my husband his pretzel and pop for free. I have no problem with a glitch like that!

 

[famy27]

Nope- I'm closest to a Beta. We aren't super users. We get there a little after rope drop (probably 9:10 or 9:15), make the TSM FP run and by the time our FP kicks in around 11:00 to 12:00, or our 2 hour window is up- FPs are usually gone for the rest of the day. We'd love to ride it more than once, but the line has always been posted at 45 minutes or an hour by the time we get back there in the morning and we aren't willing to be in a standby line that long for a ride (although DD has had us wait that long for characters more than once). We've never been able to ride TSM more than once in a day at DHS. We thought we were going to get lucky on our last trip with FP+ when FP- was still working and we pulled a FP- for late afternoon and were all excited about getting 2 rides...but the ride went down and they advised it would not be back up for the rest of the day. So- we've never ridden TSM more than once in a day at DHS.


We HATE FP+. As far as DHS, yes, I like that I don't have to make the morning run to TSM- that was the one nice thing- it saved me from the morning runs at DHS, EPCOT and MK. BUT...RNRR is one of my favorite rides. DD won't ride it. Pre FP+, DH and I would grab RNRR FPs at some point during the day. We would then take turns riding it with our FP. Now, I can't take DD on TSM, which I also like, but also get a FP for RNRR because of the tiers. I can single rider it if the line is short enough- but if the line is too long, I give up RNRR because I don't want to make DH and DD wait while I ride it...so Mom no longer gets to do her favorite ride at DHS unless the single rider standby is short enough. Also DH likes to do TOT, but he is the only one that really likes it. He would often grab a FP at sometime during the day and ride it on his own. Now he can't do a FP+ for that without skipping out on something with DD and I, which he won't do. He also won't stand in the regular line for it and take that time away from being with DD and I. So Dad no longer gets to do his favorite ride in the park. Also FP+ "locked us in" at DHS. One of DD's favorite rides of all of the parks is Star Tours. We weren't going to make our FP+ time because we were stuck in the middle of a long line for Sophia which DD just had to see. MDE at first glitched and we couldn't change our FP+ time. Then, when it finally worked it said there were no available times for the rest of the day at Star Tours- and also said there were no available times for any other attraction for the rest of the day. This was BEFORE noon. So- with the current status- we totally lose a FP+ and then just have to hope the standby line isn't too bad for Star Tours. (That happened before FP- was gone, so I grabbed the KTTW cards, left DH and DD in line for Sophia, and ran to Star Tours--- quite funny that MDE told me there were no available times for the rest of the day, but at the ride I pulled a FP that kicked in 40 minutes later. Now, we would just be out of luck.)

And...lets move over to EPCOT as Beta we aren't happy at EPCOT either. At EPCOT, we would fast pass Soarin and Test Track each once. Many days that was it. If we FP anything else, it was usually one more for Soarin, but we didn't do that often because usually by the time we did Soarin and TT, either Soarin was gone, or it would be for a time we knew we would be over in WS. Now- my "Beta" self is not happy at all because we can't FP both Soarin and Test Track. We have to pick one, and then waste our park time in line for the other, where before we could FP it. . This is likely going to cause strife because Soarin is my absolute favorite ride and I'm not going to want to give that one up, and DD on our last trip decided that she really likes Test Track. Again NOT happy and family harmony is going to be disrupted. DD will win at DHS where she gets TSM and I don't get RNRR- but she isn't winning when it comes to Soarin. Actually, what will probably happen, is where we usually arrive at EPCOT at about 9:15 or 9:20, now, I'm going to have to force everyone to get up earlier, to get there well before rope drop so that we can run to Test Track before the line builds up. DD isn't going to like that option either because she is not a morning person at all.


We definitely aren't Alpha and I definitely would NOT describe us as pretty happy. I would describe us as VERY UNHAPPY. In fact, we are so unhappy, that this is the 1st time in 6 years that we don't already have a trip booked and planned for sometime this fall.

It's like you're me. I could have written this post. It describes our family perfectly. I actually think early-ish (but not RD) guest will be more negatively impacted than RD'ers will. I've only been through the FP line for Soarin, TT, TSMM, etc. We've never done those standby, and we probably only make it to RD 1 out of 4 days. And that is RD as in 8:45 to get in HS, not getting there 45-60 minutes before park opening. We've never done that.

Even arriving as late as noon, we've still been able to pull FPs for all the rides we wanted (other than TSMM). And even in busy seasons MK almost always had lots of headliner FPs available.

I have a theory that part of FP+ was designed to offset complaints Disney received about TSMM FPs being gone so early in the day. I am sure there were lots of people who were unhappy about that. However, the issue there is capacity, not paper vs. electronic FP. With paper, I always got FPs for TSMM, ToT, and RNRC all on the same day. Now, I don't have that option, and I'll have to wait for one of them. The same for EP. Being able to ride one headliner with FP is a gigantic downgrade for us. Now, we are looking at being the people at RD 30-45 before park opening. Either way, I am waiting in lines that I didn't have to wait in on prior trips. And we were not super-users. We pulled 2-3 FPs in most parks and 5 or so in MK. So, with the tiers and limit of 3 in MK, we're losing half of the FPs we used to get.

As always, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the elimination of tiers and/or the addition of hopping. At least if I could hop, I could do Soarin in the morning and then hop to MK to do two mountain. I wouldn't be stuck with two uselss-to-me FPs. A girl can dream...

 

[Planogirl]

We have always been betas but we don't like hyper scheduling anything. We would get to the park at rope drop and get TSMM fastpasses if we felt like riding it but often we would just go do something else. TSMM isn't a requirement for us so we MIGHT ride it once.

However there are several other rides we like and I hope that it's not too hard to ride them, again if we feel like we want to.

 

[Shaden]

Do this again, except with Rides like TT and Soarin, Or EE and Safari ...

Then do it in Mid season, you know, like 60+% of the year, when you used to be able to pull FPs throughout the day to ride the rides multiple times, all those families, ALpha, beta, Charlie, would get much more out of FP- ...

Nice try though.

 

[wookiebeck]

I prefer to think of myself as an Omega.

As in Charlton Heston? I'm picturing it now, Laketravis all alone, last man in the park, surrounded by zombie tourists...but they walk right past him because their gaze is glued to smart phones...

 

[BudgieMama]

I agree that Delta families will end up better off, because something is better than nothing. But this depends on them absorbing FP+ information before they arrive. Educating them about FP- would have had the same result.

When I started planning, FP+ wasn't really a big thing, so I spent a lot of time reading up on FP- and it terrified me. I liked that it was free (FP equivalent in UK Theme Parks are paid for, so normally I go to theme parks and stand in the queues, because I've never had the spare cash to upgrade to a FP type thing after paying for my park tickets). From what I read, having a good day would depend on being able to run to a FP- machine at the start of the day, in a large venue I hadn't visited before and hope not to get lost... and then keep crossing the park to acquire new FPs when the slot opened up. From my point of view, you lose out being a first timer at WDW by not knowing your way around and the location of the machines.

Now, I will be able to schedule my FP+ before I leave England. That is a lot easier and less scary for me as a first timer. It means DH and I can stay together (no need to send him off as a runner when I'm getting tired). Even if I was staying offsite, I could rock up to a kiosk and book all three passes- again, a lot easier than navigating a big park the first time under pressure!

At least, that how it feels to DH and I are first timers.