A few more dining plan questions

[mickeymousemom]

Whew! WOW! Whatathread! I'm EXHAUSTED after reading all this!

Now...I guess for my two cents worth.

First, let me say that I could never use a refillable mug once its time is up. I'd feel guilty for life.

With that being said, I do believe that some people have nothing better to do than go on and on about morals and rules and make others feel as though they are going to you-know-where in a handbasket just because they brought last years mug and refilled it with about $2 worth of Coke over the course of their vacation. I usually think these kinds of threads are juvenile and ridiculous but this one has been quite the entertainment for me tonight!

I do plan on buying the meal plan this year. I will pay for 4 adults and 1 child(who is only 3, BTW). I will use the 3yo's credits where its best feasible for her and where not I will pay out of pocket. IF--IF we are getting to the end of our vacation and see that we have meals left then I can assure you we will use these for either DH and I a meal alone, and/or for my 17 and 12yo DD's. Or maybe I should just let them go and leave without taking advantage of the meals I have paid for. My 3yo will also get snacks. Can I use those credits for myself??
If WDW stated that I could not or should not use those credits for myself, then I wouldn't. I feel guilty keeping extra change that the cashier accidentally gives me. I can assure you that the Disney guys in charge are plenty smart enough to have known things like this would happen even before the plan was implemented. If not, they certainly know it now. I can also assure you that Disney isn't losing much. I can attest to this(sort of) in a first hand way. As I wrote in another thread, when we were on the DP last year, my 2yo was, of course, not included. YET, we were charged a TS meal for my TWO YO DD!! It took much arguing with the POR CM's to get it taken off...I'm betting this happens quite a bit and some people don't even notice. A WHOLE *&$% TS meal(served family style) for a 2yo who barely touched a biscuit or her eggs! Believe me, I kept a close eye on things the rest of the trip, as I will this one. I won't purposely go in intending to "cheat the system", but believe you me, when I see a few extra TS and CS credits towards the end of our stay, you can be sure they'll get used by the rest of us.
And yes, I'm somewhat sure Disney didn't intend for us to use a $12 child's credit for a $30 dollar steak with mushroom risotto at LeCellier. On the other hand, Disney didn't PAY $30 for that steak and risotto(believe me, arborio rice is cheap, esp. in bulk!) either. I'm not trying to totally justify someone doing that, I'm only stating fact. All in all it evens out for the Disney Co. If the powers that be decide they are losing money then I can promise you the DP will will change faster than you can say "FREE".

Ya know, I'm not a bad person...and I doubt in the whole scheme of things and today's society that how people use their meal credits really matters. I teach my kids about morals and responsibility. I buckle my kids in their seats every day. I don't allow my kids to skip school(unless its for a WDW vacatoin, but that's a WHOLE other thread ), I COULD LIE and say my just turned 3yo is still only 2 and get another FREE Disney vacation for her....but I won't. I take one newspaper out of the dispenser like I should, I use my refillable mugs once, I don't buy something at WalMart and wear it for that special occasion then return it. Last but not least, I DO NOT make change in the offering plate!

Now, when Disney writes a brochure that tells me to do something other than to use the credits as I wish for the lenght of my stay, then I will certainly do that. To use extra credits that my 3yo doesn't use after I am FORCED to buy them as part of a package(versus just buying credits for the rest of us), does not make me or anyone else on these boards immoral or bad parents, or whatever else you want to say. I so look forward to Disney's response...until then I certainly DO plan on having a "nice life"...thank you very much!

 

[ashresiren]

Whew! WOW! Whatathread! I'm EXHAUSTED after reading all this!

Now...I guess for my two cents worth.

First, let me say that I could never use a refillable mug once its time is up. I'd feel guilty for life.

With that being said, I do believe that some people have nothing better to do than go on and on about morals and rules and make others feel as though they are going to you-know-where in a handbasket just because they brought last years mug and refilled it with about $2 worth of Coke over the course of their vacation. I usually think these kinds of threads are juvenile and ridiculous but this one has been quite the entertainment for me tonight!

I do plan on buying the meal plan this year. I will pay for 4 adults and 1 child(who is only 3, BTW). I will use the 3yo's credits where its best feasible for her and where not I will pay out of pocket. IF--IF we are getting to the end of our vacation and see that we have meals left then I can assure you we will use these for either DH and I a meal alone, and/or for my 17 and 12yo DD's. Or maybe I should just let them go and leave without taking advantage of the meals I have paid for. My 3yo will also get snacks. Can I use those credits for myself??
If WDW stated that I could not or should not use those credits for myself, then I wouldn't. I feel guilty keeping extra change that the cashier accidentally gives me. I can assure you that the Disney guys in charge are plenty smart enough to have known things like this would happen even before the plan was implemented. If not, they certainly know it now. I can also assure you that Disney isn't losing much. I can attest to this(sort of) in a first hand way. As I wrote in another thread, when we were on the DP last year, my 2yo was, of course, not included. YET, we were charged a TS meal for my TWO YO DD!! It took much arguing with the POR CM's to get it taken off...I'm betting this happens quite a bit and some people don't even notice. A WHOLE *&$% TS meal(served family style) for a 2yo who barely touched a biscuit or her eggs! Believe me, I kept a close eye on things the rest of the trip, as I will this one. I won't purposely go in intending to "cheat the system", but believe you me, when I see a few extra TS and CS credits towards the end of our stay, you can be sure they'll get used by the rest of us.
And yes, I'm somewhat sure Disney didn't intend for us to use a $12 child's credit for a $30 dollar steak with mushroom risotto at LeCellier. On the other hand, Disney didn't PAY $30 for that steak and risotto(believe me, arborio rice is cheap, esp. in bulk!) either. I'm not trying to totally justify someone doing that, I'm only stating fact. All in all it evens out for the Disney Co. If the powers that be decide they are losing money then I can promise you the DP will will change faster than you can say "FREE".

Ya know, I'm not a bad person...and I doubt in the whole scheme of things and today's society that how people use their meal credits really matters. I teach my kids about morals and responsibility. I buckle my kids in their seats every day. I don't allow my kids to skip school(unless its for a WDW vacatoin, but that's a WHOLE other thread ), I COULD LIE and say my just turned 3yo is still only 2 and get another FREE Disney vacation for her....but I won't. I take one newspaper out of the dispenser like I should, I use my refillable mugs once, I don't buy something at WalMart and wear it for that special occasion then return it. Last but not least, I DO NOT make change in the offering plate!

Now, when Disney writes a brochure that tells me to do something other than to use the credits as I wish for the lenght of my stay, then I will certainly do that. To use extra credits that my 3yo doesn't use after I am FORCED to buy them as part of a package(versus just buying credits for the rest of us), does not make me or anyone else on these boards immoral or bad parents, or whatever else you want to say. I so look forward to Disney's response...until then I certainly DO plan on having a "nice life"...thank you very much!

Amen.

 

[pedro2112]

I'm sending this letter to Disney, I will let you know their response. I will wait a day or two if anyone has issue with how I wrote it. I think I pretty well described the way the people who disagree with me say that Disney lets the meal plan be used.



To Whom It May Concern:

I'm going to Disneyworld in April with 6 kids and 6 adults. I'm staying in the cabins 6/cabin so I'm going to have one adult and 5 kids (ages 3-8) in one cabin and plan to get the meal plan. I'm will be paying for 5 kid's plans and one adult plan. So according to what I've read on the internet (supposedly all the plan is pooled together and there really is no such thing as adult TS's and child TS's), all 6 adults can now eat all week after only paying for one adult plan and all I have to do is pay out of pocket for the little kids and use the TS's from their plan to buy the adult's dinner and I can save some money. As you can see from my one days savings below, if I do it his way it would be a lot cheaper for me. Is this really allowed?

Thank You

1 adult plan =$35
5 kids plan =$50
6 oop kids meals = $60
total $145

VS.

6 adult plans =$210
6 kids plans =$60
total = $270

Unfortunately, the response you get from Disney (if you even get one) will be irrelevant, as you have created a strawman. The written rules clearly state you cannot transfer your dining plan, which is what you are attempting to do in your hypothetical. You are asking if you can buy the plan for one room, which is full of kids with one adult, but have another room full of adults, none of which are on the plan, use the plan. I would be shocked if you received a response from Disney suggesting that this was allowed. Consequently, your attempts to "clarify" this issue (even though the plan documents are clear as a bell), will do nothing of the sort.

What you should have done was provide a hypothetical consistent with what the plan documents say, that anyone in your party can use your credits any way you wish. You should have asked it this way:

I'm going to Disneyworld in April with 2 kids (ages 7 and 6) and 2 adults. I'm staying at the Wildnerness Lodge. I'm paying for the Magic your Way plus dining plan for my two kids and the two adults. So according to what I've read on the internet (supposedly all the plan is pooled together and there really is no such thing as adult TS's and child TS's), can anyone in my party (child or adult) use any of the meal credits at any time up until midnight of the night of check out. In other words, can the adults use more of the TS credits than the children, or are the adults only allowed to use the amount of credits equal to the amount of nights they are staying? Can I pay for all of my children's meals out of pocket, and only use the TS credits for the adults?

 

[mickeymousemom]

Amen.

Thank-you ....


While I do NOT agree with pedro2112 that WDW ENCOURAGES this, I do believe they fully expect it to happen, and have also brought up other scenarios that would even out the whole thing, such as parents paying the adult price for their 10yo who in all actuality will only eat mac and cheese and fries the whole trip. I have no doubt there are plenty of guests who buy the plan then realize they can't possibly eat all that food. My family LOVES to EAT and we LOVE the Food & Wine Fest, but even WE had trouble using all our snack credits there. We were STUFFED day in and day out and I do believe we struggled to use our CS credits, wasting some food in the process. You can't tell me that people don't leave at the end of vacation with some credits left over...that's money lost for the guests, gained for Disney.
Again, as far as the morality issue goes, this is ridiculous. Its a moot point. It would be totally different if the DP brochure stated that we could NOT use a child's credit and people were then "cheating the system" by finding a way around that rule. Disney had to know when they CHOSE not to separate child and adult credits on the room keys, and instead POOL them all together, that this would happen. I understand some of us have been unhappy with the way the Disney Co. has been run the last several years, but the powers-that-be who are in charge of this wonerful dining plan are not idiots by any means. DISNEY KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING...esp. seeing as I HAVE TO purchase the DP for my barely eating 3yo, when I want it for the rest of us, and when I HAVE TO purchase ADULT credits for my 12yo who also can eat like a bird at times...and probably will.
Please....go to WDW, have a GRAND time, and QUIT WORRYING about whether or not the rest of us are going to hell in a handbasket!

 

[mickeymousemom]

Okay, rather than edit my above post, it's easier just to post again...

DH and I were just talking about this. In doing so, I realized something.

It seems that some people in this thread are underestimating what went in to making this Dining Plan a reality. Three executives at the Disney Co. didn't just stand at the water cooler and say "Hey..let's make a plan that allows the guests to pay for their meals ahead of time. We'll charge for children and adults differently, put it on the room key, and off they go"...then the plan was implemented.
I am more than sure this took months to talk about, with surveys being conducted, presentations being made, percentages of this and that discussed, and money issues also talked about...in many meetings around a big table by Disney Co. employees and such who are EXPERTS at this. EXPERTS, I say!

It would possibly be very different if people chose whether or not they wanted to purchase child or adult credits, then abused this by purchasing all child credits and using those credits for themselves. That's virtually impossible to do since you must purchase a MYW package to even get the dining plan(not sure how this would work for DVC members), and you are charged according to the ages of the guests in your party! I will be paying for FOUR adult DP's, and ONE child...I cannot do it any other way. I really don't think most people pay for the dining plan intending to use this so-called "loop-hole". I have to pay for everyone in my party. I am paying for credits to eat at WDW. Once those credits are on my room key, it's anything goes. "Child" and "Adult" credits melt into one(as was so proven when my 2yo was charged an adult TS) and I can use them as I wish. Disney KNOWS I'm doing this.

Would someone please show me where the immorality is here????

 

[iluvtheks]

I agree wth RYTY44... I did'nt know that it could be used like that, and I do plan to take advantage of it ........Thanks

 

[Sammie]

I could honestly care less who goes to "hell in a handbasket", that is not my concern.

My take is that by using the plan in a way that was not intended (and I still say that ordering adult meals at child's prices was not intended) affects me, then it is my concern.

More and more of the items I would enjoy ordering will be removed.

I have seen it happen time and time again at Disney. Maybe some of you have not being going for 25 plus years, but those of who have know what I am talking about. More and more restrictions have been put in place due to guest abuse of the intended use of a policy. Wristbands at SAB, and charging to valet park are 2 that come to mind.

Disney does this because it is easier and sometimes less expensive just to take lobster off the menu completely than make it where adults can not use child credits. As long as Disney does not make changes to what I can order, then you are right, do as you please as it has no affect on me.

However if we begin to see changes in the adult menu; as to what one could order in the past and what one can order now, or the price goes up; then Yes they cared, and they changed it, and due to the abuse it affected me.

And regardless of what anyone wants to think; being able to get away with something, does not make it right or acceptable; but your right that is your choice.

 

[gobnu1]

I agree wth RYTY44... I did'nt know that it could be used like that, and I do plan to take advantage of it ........Thanks

I agree wth Sammie ("And regardless of what anyone wants to think; being able to get away with something, does not make it right or acceptable").... I do know that it can be used like that, and I do not plan to take advantage of it

 

[Pedler]

I agree wth Sammie ("And regardless of what anyone wants to think; being able to get away with something, does not make it right or acceptable").... I do know that it can be used like that, and I do not plan to take advantage of it

Ahhh.. but the question is what defines it as right or wrong? Isn't it Disney that gets to decide if this is or is not an abuse of the system? Just because something seems like too good of a deal to be true does not make something an abuse.

If that were the case then whenever I buy something that has rebates that in essence make the item free would be considered and abuse because using that logic it isn't possible for the company to want to sell me something for nothing. An example would be a spindle of CD-R's I got a best buy a year ago. With rebate they were free. No other purchase was required and there were no strings attached. Just fill out the form and I got a check back.

If using the dinning plan as Disney allows and has stated is acceptable is considered immoral then my buying the CD-Rs and getting the rebate back for the full amount would also be considered immoral.

I look forward to your response but so far no one has responded on why its immoral other than its too good of deal for it not to be immoral.

 

[numbersman]

Holy crap, folks, use the plan that is in place in the most advantageous way possible. There is nothing illegal or immoral about that. Who here has a home equity loan that you took out for purposes other than to add to your home? Well, you can deduct the interest from your taxes on a home equity loan. But let's say you used that HEL to pay off some credit cards, interest you normally cannot deduct on your taxes. However, since you paid the debt off with HEL proceeds, you can now "effectively" deduct your interest on that debt, b/c it's now considered HEL interest, rather than credit card interest. It's just a tax loophole that is used to allow you to deduct interest, even though you used the proceeds to pay off debt that wasn't otherwise deductible. Is is legal? Yep. Is it honest? Yep, b/c you're not doing anything you're not allowed to do. Is it moral? I don't see a problem. I'm using the tools the government allows me to use to make my finances work for me.

What's the difference with the dining plan? Disney ALLOWS you to pool credits, and ALLOWS you to have the option to pay out of pocket for kids meals. If THEY wanted to change that, and you know they know this kind of stuff goes on, then THEY can change it at anytime. Yet they don't. Do you really think Disney hasn't done the math on this, to make sure it is coming out OK for them on the financial end. Do you really think they're saying "Gee, we're really taking a bath on this dining plan thing by letting people pay kids' prices but use them for adult meals, but we can't do anything about it"? I doubt it. Somehow, this arrangement is working well for them, trust me.

If you don't feel right about it, don't do it. But I have done and will continue to do it, as long as it is still an option, b/c it makes it more affordable and enjoyable for my family. And until 10 year olds start eating like adults (even though they're paying like they should be, after you turn 10), I have no guilty conscience whatsoever.

 

[deelam]

Certainly, this would be an easy fix for Disney. I wouldn't put any body down for using all the credits on adult dining. If Disney wanted to fix it, they would. I think Disney knows that they will get our money in the long run. After all, money saved on dining is more money to spend in the parks.

 

[Sammie]

Certainly, this would be an easy fix for Disney. I wouldn't put any body down for using all the credits on adult dining. If Disney wanted to fix it, they would. I think Disney knows that they will get our money in the long run. After all, money saved on dining is more money to spend in the parks.

Actually it's not an easy quick fix at all. As Pedler stated the solution involves more than just Food and Beverage. It includes resorts, reservations, parks, marketing, legal, and much more including obligations to travel agencies that can not be changed over night.

They will fix it though, so enjoy it while you can. Change will be coming, maybe not soon but it will change.

 

[BAST]

I have posted previously that the terms of the DDP plan and certainly the way WDW adminsters the plan allow for the use of pooled credits in any way that the members of a party see fit. That people continue to see this as some great moral issue - oh well.

But where these people really go off the deep end is when they try to illustrate their alleged abuse: "adults are not supposed to get lobster at kids prices."

Look at this with some logic:

a) Each member of a party gets 1 TS a day. To use the plan to full advantage, an adult will use that TS for a dinner - the most expensive meal of the day. If you are staying 7 nights, you get 7 TS credits per party member and presumably eat 7 dinners per party member. Using the lobster example, since lobster is only available at a few restaurants and really only at dinner, then the adult will always use an 'adult' TS credit to pay for that lobster dinner. EVEN IF WDW CHANGED THE DDP AND STOPPED POOLING CREDITS, THIS IS STILL HOW ANY ADULT WOULD USE THE DDP. (Please also note that lobster was never very prevalent at WDW - it was at best an add-on at a restaurant (not paid for with DDP) - and the one restaurant where it has disappeared (Coral Reef) is now a 1 TS meal.)

b) An adult can really only use a TS paid for at kids prices in three ways: (1) to pay for a TS lunch; (2) to pay for a TS breakfast; or (3) to pay for the 2nd credit at a 2 TS signature restaurant. EACH OF THESE OPTIONS IS SIGNIFICANTLY LESS EXPENSIVE THAN A 1 TS DINNER. AND EACH OF THESE OPTIONS REQUIRES THAT THE ADULT PAY FOR THE CHILD OOP AT 1 OR 2 MEALS, OR HAVE ALL PARTIES SHARE A MEAL (which is not possible at a buffet).

Look at a typical day for someone supposedly 'abusing' the plan with a family of four (2 adults, 2 kids).

(A) You go to a character breakfast (all buffets) and pay OOP for kids. Kids are still rather expensive at these events (and I think the adult prices are also absurd which is why we never eat WDW breakfasts). OOP expense is about $25 -$30 (with tip). Adults get about $60 'free'. (I don't know about you, but even someone like me who can eat like a horse has never gotten my money's worth in food at a WDW breakfast.)

(B) You use 4 CS at lunch. Also, it strikes me as at least possible that a party will skip the CS lunch after a big breakfast. Again, using myself as an example, I cannot eat three large meal a day and I am bigger than virtually everyone (about 6'4" and 260).

(C) You go to dinner. Adults use 2 TS credits (AS THEY WOULD ANYWAY EVEN WITHOUT POOLED CREDITS) and pay for kids OOP. OOP expense about another $25 for the kids.

The horrible 'abuse' for this day - 2 adults ate a character breakfast but paid for kids breakfast and dinner (about $50 OOP). FOUR TS ARE USED IN THIS EXAMPLE.

All other scenarios are about the same - admittedly, shared meals may involve little or no OOP for the kids.

For those who argue from the moral or abuse side (and I do not think any such argument is reasonable given how WDW wrote and administers the DDP), at least try to present a plausible scenario for what constitutes abuse - an adult will NEVER get a 'kids price' lobster dinner since that adult would, in the absence of pooled credits, always use the 'adult' credit they would receive for a dinner.

 

[junekinsman]

The moral rationaly agrueement would be this: First--Disney obviously not only doesn't mind but seems to somewhat encourage it. 2nd--I paid $10 or $11 for those pooled credits and then on top of that will be paying for an off the menu item for my kids, which would equal what an adult entree costs anyway. It would just allow to eat at a charachter breakfast that would cost 2 credit instead of one. If it is immoral to do that, then one would think that it would be immoral for Disney to charge 2 credits for a meal that a character might be at, when the food is no more expensive than other restaurants on the plan. If you are to speak on ethics, why not speak about that.

I am not one to judge and while I asked a ? on how the plan works, I certainly did not ask you to be the "moral moderator". How is it your place to speak on ethics? You really under estimate Disney's intelligence if you think for one second they have a problem with the system working like this. They could change the entire system in a blink of an eye if they wanted to, but they don't--they want us eating on premisis---very wise of them if you ask me, almighty one.

 

[junekinsman]

actually back since the eighties the food plan was once the best plan , there were no limits to what you could order and where you could eat ,every restaurant was included in the plan. Then in 1995 there were some changes such as lobster was not included at coral reef ext . Then in 2001 we went durring the magic your way pkg was still wonderful, wishes used anyway you wanted to use two full sit down meals included everyday on this plan or if you didnt want the meals you could choose a spa choice or even gifts in place of food it was your choice we miss that plan we would use it for our breakfast and dinner each day no credit cards to worry about not money issues in the end. you could mix it up breakfast lunch lunch dinner ext ext , im going on about this there is a point to this because of the new plan my son whom is 8 is on the childrens plan which he is to order from the childrens menu but my son has a big appetite and likes a variety of foods including seafood and we very rarely eat fried foods so now i am in a delema of a childrens menu with fried chicken nuggets or mac and cheese or hotdog choices at most restaurants so my point is why is it wrong for people to choose to pay for the kids meals if you would rather order differently from the menu say order grilled chicken off the reg menu and pay for that meal if you choose to, and use the credit for a signiture restaurant since you are paying for the child anyway out of pocket what is the difference? we are still paying for the meal out of pocket and still paying for the childs meals for the day, and the waitress is still getting a seperate tip for the childs meal seperate from the gratuity included so it seems pretty reasonable to say pay for the meal you want and use the credit how you want i also asked a disney customer service rep this question and was told we could use them however we wanted to .If say my son used his counter service for a big lunch and my husband and myself wanted just a snack why would we have to use one of my sons sit down meals durring our fine dinning sit down if he just wanted to order a dessert so thats what i asked and was told we were abble to do that . thanks for waiting for me to get to the point im a true disney lover i just wish they would bring back the old dinning plan !!!!

 

[jonkatony]

Blast is it me? or have you not seen the prices for t.s on all ears for lunch?, they do not seem significantly cheaper to me?
The logic I use to look this is:
You pay out of pocket for your kids meals, and you can use their credits for additional lunches & signiture meals. You can use your c.s for breakfast.
You buy a childs meal (they don't exist apparently but Disney will charge you a different amount anyway) and you use it for an Adults meal?
I really don't have a problem with this, but it is using the plan as it was intended? no I don't so. I have no moral issues, but people who are so verment in using the plan this way seem very keen to justify their actions? Is it they who have the nagging moral issues?
Blast, if you look at other postings you will see losts of threads trying to maximise the amount of money they can spend/ save on the plan. I eat while on holiday, it seems some holiday to eat and I think you under estimate the ability of some?

 

[DisneyMama629]

I have read this whole crazy thread. It seems like some people need to get off their high horse.

When I go on my trip coming up with 2 adults and one 5 year old. We will use TS credits for all of our character meals. When we go to Sci-Fi and San Angel we will pay OOP for the 5 year old. Then one night we are leaving the 5 year old at a child care club and the two adults are going to eat at Cap'n Jacks. I do not feel guilty. If I get there and they say I can't do this, then fine. I won't. But for now that is the plan.

If you want to do the same, just do it. Who cares what everyones opinion is? Do they really matter. When Disney says no I won't, but untill then, I will.

 

[Lewisc]

There are children's meals but there is no children's meal plan nor are there child credits.

I don't travel with children under 11 so I don't have any of the so called children's credits to use for meals to be consumed by adults. My posts have nothing to do with justifying my actions. I'm afraid the posters with moral issues are the ones who persist in making up rules so they can attack others for violating their imaginary rules.

Of course Disney intended this or they would have changed the plan. Prior meal plans worked the same way.

You buy a childs meal (they don't exist apparently but Disney will charge you a different amount anyway) and you use it for an Adults meal?
I really don't have a problem with this, but it is using the plan as it was intended? no I don't so. I have no moral issues, but people who are so verment in using the plan this way seem very keen to justify their actions? Is it they who have the nagging moral issues?
Blast, if you look at other postings you will see losts of threads trying to maximise the amount of money they can spend/ save on the plan. I eat while on holiday, it seems some holiday to eat and I think you under estimate the ability of some?

 

[jonkatony]

'Who cares what everyones opinion is? Do the really matter?'

honesty at last?

 

[Lewisc]

I find it very offensive that a few posters see the need to make up rules so they can attack the moral character of those who don't follow those imaginary rules.

'Who cares what everyones opinion is? Do the really matter?'

honesty at last?