7DmkII or 70D?

[WilsonFlyer]

BTW, don't get me started on my Sony A6000. You don't even want to go there. That's a whole new Pandora's box and a relatively brand new rabbit hole.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

BTW, what I really want is a FF with the low-light capabilities of my 6D. The cross-type focus points of the 7D MkII. The burst rate of the Mk II. A flip out touchscreen. Weather sealed. WiFi with 100 yard reach. 183 FPS in burst mode would be nice. GPS (Actually, I could care less about GPS but I think you're starting to get the point. ). 2 SD slots instead of 1 and that stupid, antiquated compact flash slot. The best dynamic range in the industry would be nice. Under 8 ounces would be nice also, but I want it to be the size of the MkII so it's substantial in my hands so magnesium is a must. I'm sure I could come up with 10 more things but you get the point.

Would ya get that for me?

HERE! Take my money!

 

[mom2rtk]

BTW, what I really want is a FF with the low-light capabilities of my 6D. The cross-type focus points of the 7D MkII. The burst rate of the Mk II. A flip out touchscreen. Weather sealed. WiFi with 100 yard reach. 183 FPS in burst mode would be nice. GPS (Actually, I could care less about GPS but I think you're starting to get the point. ). 2 SD slots instead of 1 and that stupid, antiquated compact flash slot. The best dynamic range in the industry would be nice. Under 8 ounces would be nice also, but I want it to be the size of the MkII so it's substantial in my hands so magnesium is a must. I'm sure I could come up with 10 more things but you get the point.

Would ya get that for me?

HERE! Take my money!

So when do you start your new job in product development for Canon?

I'll take all of that. But I'll take a sub $500 price tag, please.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

Wow! I totally forgot the sub-$500 price tag. Imagine that!

 

[photo_chick]

I was all over that instant Facebook gratification with the 6D's wifi when I first got it. But after a few months it just lost it's appeal to me. I'm so process oriented that the editing is as much a part of the photography as shooting for me and the instant upload removed me from that.

Can you develop an L quality lens to go with that camera? Super light, sharp, quick and accurate focus. 10-300mm f/1.8? Also make sure that front element is impervious to shattering or scratching. All for under $500.

ETA... Hubs just looked at the rundown and voted 7DmkII. For the headphone jack of all things. Apparently the ability to monitor audio levels when shooting video is important to him. Just shows that what's important to one person might not mean anything to another.

 

[mom2rtk]

I was all over that instant Facebook gratification with the 6D's wifi when I first got it. But after a few months it just lost it's appeal to me. I'm so process oriented that the editing is as much a part of the photography as shooting for me and the instant upload removed me from that.

Can you develop an L quality lens to go with that camera? Super light, sharp, quick and accurate focus. 10-300mm f/1.8? Also make sure that front element is impervious to shattering or scratching. All for under $500.

Great idea!

 

[WilsonFlyer]

I was all over that instant Facebook gratification with the 6D's wifi when I first got it. But after a few months it just lost it's appeal to me. I'm so process oriented that the editing is as much a part of the photography as shooting for me and the instant upload removed me from that.

Can you develop an L quality lens to go with that camera? Super light, sharp, quick and accurate focus. 10-300mm f/1.8? Also make sure that front element is impervious to shattering or scratching. All for under $500.

Yea. Put that up there with mine.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

I don't think I've ever even posted a link to any of my stuff here before.

Most all of this was shot in poor lighting on a HS auditorium stage with my 70D and 70-200 2.8L IS.

Some of them are better than others. NO post at all. All I did was go thru and remove MOST of the OOF shots. The reason? You never know when almost any shot, if cropped properly, may have something some parent wants.

Enjoy.

http://beamanfamily.smugmug.com/Hunters-Dance/Hunters-Dance-4-12-Recital-5

FYI, This daddy's girl, getting ready for a trip to 50's Prime Time.

http://beamanfamily.smugmug.com/Hunters-Dance/Hunters-Dance-4-12-Recital-5/i-ndNKBRj

 

[bob100]

Thanks for your insights, bob. The M3 is actually more available right now in Europe than the older M1 model. M2 never made it here either. The price for the M3 body with an adapter is about 200 less than the 70D. The M1 and the pancake range in about the 250 region (without the adapter which would add around another 30-50).

Have you ever used the M at Disney? I am just wondering how it would perform on dark rides because if I decide to get it, it sure would be the one to bring to Disney as well. I'd continue using the 60D for the kids' sporting events but travelling and going out would sure warrant the smaller body if it performs well.

I haven't use the M at Disney or a similar resort yet but I did take pics at recent night event (see link). It would be challenging shooting a moving ride in very dark conditions but for a concert performer and other night situations I had no problems. Again, check out the Canon M sections at http://photography-on-the.net/forum and http://www.dpreview.com/forums/ to get some opinions on the newer M2 and M3 models
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mmirrorless/

 

[WilsonFlyer]

I haven't use the M at Disney or a similar resort yet but I did take pics at recent night event (see link). It would be challenging shooting a moving ride in very dark conditions but for a concert performer and other night situations I had no problems. Again, check out the Canon M sections at http://photography-on-the.net/forum and http://www.dpreview.com/forums/ to get some opinions on the newer M2 and M3 models
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mmirrorless/

And you have to admit that it's hard to dismiss the a6000 in all of this. DVC Mike and I have both complimented our DSLRs for Disney with a6000s and we are both very pleased with the results. There are a couple of threads here about this. The Sony a6000 is one fine piece of technology, especially so for the money.

 

[photo_chick]

Nice dance shots! I've seen one of those costumes on a soloist from my DD's dance studio.
And I can totally relate to the poorly lit stage scenario. My daughter is a studio dancer and also attends a fine arts academy where she studies dance as well. She dances in all kinds of venues. Some lit really well and some make me thankful I've got the 6D.

This is with the 6D..
http://photo-chick.smugmug.com/Dance-2014-2015

 

[havoc315]

And you have to admit that it's hard to dismiss the a6000 in all of this. DVC Mike and I have both complimented our DSLRs for Disney with a6000s and we are both very pleased with the results. There are a couple of threads here about this. The Sony a6000 is one fine piece of technology, especially so for the money.

That's my point --- For an APS-C shooter, who is NOT ALREADY invested into a system, and who doesn't need thousands of dollars in exotic lenses, it's hard to fault the A6000. I find it very very hard to recommend a Rebel or D3300/5500 over an A6000 to anybody, unless they already had lenses they want to keep.
Now a camera like the 7dii -- that is clearly for advanced users, with particular wildlife/sports needs... Plenty of reasons to take it over mirrorless.
And full frame... Full frame mirrorless options are still behind full frame dSLRs in many ways. (None of the A7 cameras have super impressive autofocus, though the A7rs may change that).

But for APS-C "kit" type shooters... hard to see a reason to go dSLR unless they just subjectively prefer the camera bodies.

 

[jec6613]

BTW, what I really want is a FF with the low-light capabilities of my 6D. The cross-type focus points of the 7D MkII. The burst rate of the Mk II. A flip out touchscreen. Weather sealed. WiFi with 100 yard reach. 183 FPS in burst mode would be nice. GPS (Actually, I could care less about GPS but I think you're starting to get the point. ). 2 SD slots instead of 1 and that stupid, antiquated compact flash slot. The best dynamic range in the industry would be nice. Under 8 ounces would be nice also, but I want it to be the size of the MkII so it's substantial in my hands so magnesium is a must. I'm sure I could come up with 10 more things but you get the point.

Would ya get that for me?

HERE! Take my money!

You do know you're dangerously close to describing the D750.

 

[jec6613]

Then link to the Thom Hogan analysis.... Because I can't find it. So far, I've seen no evidence supporting your statement.

... except the CIPA numbers themselves, and Nikon's financial reports, which show that Nikon sells 50% more cameras than the entire mirrorless segment combined. Thom's was on his front page for about two weeks, then he took it down. It was related to QVC selling T5 bundles, and it gave the number of bundles sold so far. Some quick math against CIPA, comes to 5% of all DSLRs in that time were sold by QVC. Which frankly made me blink a few times in disbelief.

Also, I did found a source that I can use in public that should give you some idea: the used serial numbers on kit 18-55 VR II lenses last year for non-us lenses number a bit over 1.7 million (non-kit and USA lenses use different serial number sequences). These were shipped exclusively on D3300 bodies, as the D5500 didn't launch until this year and the D5300 didn't see the 18-55 VRII until this year overseas. The total mirrorless sales last year were 2.8 million units - meaning that one Nikon non-US product SKU sold 60% of the entire non-US mirrorless market in 2014 by unit shipments.

 

[jec6613]

But for APS-C "kit" type shooters... hard to see a reason to go dSLR unless they just subjectively prefer the camera bodies.

The ergonomics in the DSLRs are superior still, and for APS-C kit shooters, they're not going to go out and buy enough lenses to be invested in a system. Usually, it's the kit lens, and fewer than half even pick up the tele lens. The ergonomics on mirrorless are getting better, but it seems to be that almost everybody is forgetting the lessons of the F4 and F5, about what happens when you hire an expensive Italian designer who thinks of things like hand position and button placement (Nikon even seems to have forgotten this, with the Df ... lovely camera and a pleasure to shoot, cruddy ergonomics). Plus, with DSLR plastic lenses competing against heavier metal mirrorless lenses, there's not a compelling reason for them to go out and buy a mirrorless camera, either - both do the job just fine.

There's a J3 sitting in my closet, and I've used the V1 and V2 as well as the A7, and they're just ... weird. My hands don't fall to controls naturally, but when I picked up a Canon Rebel DSLR (which I've never used once) my hands fell right to the controls. Not quite as nice as my Nikons IMHO, but still very natural. There are better mirrorless, they're just not competing in the low end market yet. So far though, the best mirrorless camera I've handled for ergonomics is a Leica M9.

 

[havoc315]

... except the CIPA numbers themselves, and Nikon's financial reports, which show that Nikon sells 50% more cameras than the entire mirrorless segment combined. Thom's was on his front page for about two weeks, then he took it down. It was related to QVC selling T5 bundles, and it gave the number of bundles sold so far. Some quick math against CIPA, comes to 5% of all DSLRs in that time were sold by QVC. Which frankly made me blink a few times in disbelief.

Also, I did found a source that I can use in public that should give you some idea: the used serial numbers on kit 18-55 VR II lenses last year for non-us lenses number a bit over 1.7 million (non-kit and USA lenses use different serial number sequences). These were shipped exclusively on D3300 bodies, as the D5500 didn't launch until this year and the D5300 didn't see the 18-55 VRII until this year overseas. The total mirrorless sales last year were 2.8 million units - meaning that one Nikon non-US product SKU sold 60% of the entire non-US mirrorless market in 2014 by unit shipments.

Show me some evidence... Not your distorted reasoning without any supporting documentation.
And even if everything you said was true, that wouldn't mean the d3300 outsells the a6000. Without citation, I'm leery to believe any of it. But even if it was true, it tells us nothing about a6000 sales.
The only public evidence we have for each, is things like Flickr popularity and Amazon sales rankings.
If you can tell me how many a6000s and how many d3300s have been sold world-wide, please do.

Thom does keep all his articles archived. I've discussed issues with him before, and I know he believes mirrorless will supplant dslr. I find it very odd that he would write an article saying the d3300 outsells the a6000, and then delete it instead of archiving it. Perhaps he deleted it because he discovered it was incorrect??

 

[havoc315]

The ergonomics in the DSLRs are superior still, and for APS-C kit shooters, they're not going to go out and buy enough lenses to be invested in a system. Usually, it's the kit lens, and fewer than half even pick up the tele lens. The ergonomics on mirrorless are getting better, but it seems to be that almost everybody is forgetting the lessons of the F4 and F5, about what happens when you hire an expensive Italian designer who thinks of things like hand position and button placement (Nikon even seems to have forgotten this, with the Df ... lovely camera and a pleasure to shoot, cruddy ergonomics). Plus, with DSLR plastic lenses competing against heavier metal mirrorless lenses, there's not a compelling reason for them to go out and buy a mirrorless camera, either - both do the job just fine.

There's a J3 sitting in my closet, and I've used the V1 and V2 as well as the A7, and they're just ... weird. My hands don't fall to controls naturally, but when I picked up a Canon Rebel DSLR (which I've never used once) my hands fell right to the controls. Not quite as nice as my Nikons IMHO, but still very natural. There are better mirrorless, they're just not competing in the low end market yet. So far though, the best mirrorless camera I've handled for ergonomics is a Leica M9.

Ergonomics are entirely subjective, and largely are a matter of what you're used to. I've heard Nikon users say they hate the ergonomics of Canon, and vice versa. Many prefer the ergonomics of mirrorless simply for the weight savings. Then of course, you can have dslr ergonomics in a mirrorless, such as the nx1 and a3000.

Seems most of your mirrorless opinions come from the Nikon j3, (my kids share one as well), which is a very poor example of the capabilities of current mirrorless. The j3 is basically a simplified point and shoot with a slightly bigger sensor and the ability to swap out lenses.

When I bought my last camera, I didn't care for the feel of the a7 in my hands. Went with the d750. But I've more recently gotten to test out the a7ii, and it's ergonomics feel just as nice as my d750 (they expanded the grip and moved the shutter button. Now everything feels pretty right).

 

[jec6613]

Thom does keep all his articles archived. I've discussed issues with him before, and I know he believes mirrorless will supplant dslr. I find it very odd that he would write an article saying the d3300 outsells the a6000, and then delete it instead of archiving it. Perhaps he deleted it because he discovered it was incorrect??

It wasn't an article, it was literally a snippit on the top of the page. And it wasn't the D3300, it was about the Canon T5 and QVC.

Also, every number you've pulled (like the 1/3 mirrorless number) I've proven incorrect.

Ergonomics are entirely subjective, and largely are a matter of what you're used to. I've heard Nikon users say they hate the ergonomics of Canon, and vice versa. Many prefer the ergonomics of mirrorless simply for the weight savings. Then of course, you can have dslr ergonomics in a mirrorless, such as the nx1 and a3000.

Seems most of your mirrorless opinions come from the Nikon j3, (my kids share one as well), which is a very poor example of the capabilities of current mirrorless. The j3 is basically a simplified point and shoot with a slightly bigger sensor and the ability to swap out lenses.

When I bought my last camera, I didn't care for the feel of the a7 in my hands. Went with the d750. But I've more recently gotten to test out the a7ii, and it's ergonomics feel just as nice as my d750 (they expanded the grip and moved the shutter button. Now everything feels pretty right).

The J3 primarily, though that's through time of exposure, but I have had the opportunity to pick up many. The best I've felt was the EM-1, which I felt was on par with many DSLRs. On the other hand, the D750 might be the best thing short of the D4, with slightly moved things making it much better than my D7200.

As bad as the ergonomics are on the J3 though, the AF is impressive with native lenses (a pig with adapted F mount though). If you can deal with the ISO noise, which realistically is close to where DSLRs were in the D300 era, I have no hesitation recommending them for the casual user. Particularly as a whole kit can be the size of a single telephoto lens for APS-C (let's not even discuss full frame)

 

[elmoandzoey]

I haven't use the M at Disney or a similar resort yet but I did take pics at recent night event (see link). It would be challenging shooting a moving ride in very dark conditions but for a concert performer and other night situations I had no problems. Again, check out the Canon M sections at http://photography-on-the.net/forum and http://www.dpreview.com/forums/ to get some opinions on the newer M2 and M3 models
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mmirrorless/

If I was to take it Disney, shooting dark rides would be part of it. There is no doubt that the M creates quality pictures that are on par if not superior to what my 40D produced. The M3 most certainly would surpass the 40D in every way. I guess I will have to actually go to a shop and see if the missing viewfinder would be much of a problem for me. The kids have a point and shoot with an awesomely slow LCD screen when you take pics (but then, they are kids, they are happy with it) and it just irks me that you have to wait seconds for the screen to reappear after taking a pic so I can take the next pic. You can't practically shoot "blind". You need to wait till you see something on the screen and then take the next picture. If the EOS M behaves in a similar way, I think it wouldn't be the way for me to go. But seeing how the M has a burstrate of ~2fps with M lenses, you must be able to shoot blind in some way.

 

[SkaGoat]

Ergonomics are entirely subjective, and largely are a matter of what you're used to.

Ergonomics are subjective, except when it comes to button placement, or hiding key features in menus. I would also argue how comfortable you feel a camera is has little to do with what you're used it.

When shopping for my first DSLR, I chose a Canon because I preferred the shape, and size of the grip. It had nothing to do with the point and shoot I had been using prior.

The problem with using Flickr numbers to support your case is 1. Flickr is dying. 2. It's mostly enthusiasts who use Flickr, If you look at the Canon numbers, the camera with the most activity is the 5D Mkiii, I can guarantee they sell a lot more Rebels than they do 5Ds.

BTW, the there are only 6.8 million photos captured by an a6000 on Flickr, in comparison to 80 million from the D3100 and 129.8 million from the 7.

a6000 is not even close.