2023 Point Charts Released

[Sandisw]

Have to look to see if they went over the minimum increase allowed in a single year this time as that all happened pretty much in the past 2 years. It needed to but it also needs to follow the POS.

Off the top of their head does anyone recall what the limit is in a single night change year to year? It appears it needs to be more than 10% to be allowable for the described Poly change. My recollection is that it is in the 10, 11 or 12% range.



It's been too long in coming. I think they saw us being beat down by Disney Parks and figured now was the time to finally take it on. I mean what's one more thing on top of AP's can be bought or not, FP gone, Genie+, paid access etc. Just rip that band aid off.



They apparently have a difficult time selling an $800 room at GF which is why DVC gets the building but we'll see. In most cases DVC sells at a fairly similar pace no matter where the resort is at WDW. There's nothing intrinsically more upscale about these rooms than they've historically done and those looking for higher end will still head for the 4 Seasons.

No more than a 20% shift from year to year for any given Use Day.

 

[RoseGold]

They apparently have a difficult time selling an $800 room at GF which is why DVC gets the building but we'll see. In most cases DVC sells at a fairly similar pace no matter where the resort is at WDW. There's nothing intrinsically more upscale about these rooms than they've historically done and those looking for higher end will still head for the 4 Seasons.

There's people in here all the time justifying RIV purchases with the RIV rack rate, which I'm not sure anyone has ever paid. VGF rack rate is a real thing for the flagship hotel. And yes, DVC has never been in a real luxury category, though IMO, this is a big step in that direction. Now, you can book multiple studios at the Disney flagship resort for however many people you want. IMO, this is wonderful.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

No more than a 20% shift from year to year for any given Use Day.

Higher than I was thinking. Thanks!

 

[Sandisw]

Yes, you're right. Talk about burying the lede. This is the headline.

Though no one has seen the paperwork yet. There might still be some surprises.

I agree...there are still a few things out there that could become a surprise. They could change the non home resort booking period, create a non home resort booking chart, etc.!!!!

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

There's people in here all the time justifying RIV purchases with the RIV rack rate, which I'm not sure anyone has ever paid. VGF rack rate is a real thing for the flagship hotel. And yes, DVC has never been in a real luxury category, though IMO, this is a big step in that direction. Now, you can book multiple studios at the Disney flagship resort for however many people you want. IMO, this is wonderful.

I am simply going off numerous reports for several years that they have difficulty selling the hotel. That doesn't mean that there aren't people who do book it of course.

 

[Sandisw]

There's people in here all the time justifying RIV purchases with the RIV rack rate, which I'm not sure anyone has ever paid. VGF rack rate is a real thing for the flagship hotel. And yes, DVC has never been in a real luxury category, though IMO, this is a big step in that direction. Now, you can book multiple studios at the Disney flagship resort for however many people you want. IMO, this is wonderful.

I have talked to several RIV cash guests at RIV who did indeed pay rack rate. Why DVC became part of the conversation during our chats. It may not be the same % as at GF, but people do stay at both..along with many other... without discounts.

 

[RoseGold]

Then along come DVC who want as cheap a solution as possible to sell some more units so design them with no kitchens to save on cost as no plumbing needed.

OMG, I didn't even think about this! Maybe this will help keep VGF dues low. LOVE IT!

 

[Lorana]

OMG, I didn't even think about this! Maybe this will help keep VGF dues low. LOVE IT!

I doubt it. The real cost would be initially, adding the plumbing for the kitchenettes or a second bathroom. Once the plumbing is there, the cost to maintain the additional plumbing is not significantly more than regular plumbing maintenance, and thus I do not believe it will have an appreciable affect on dues.

 

[Lorana]

There's people in here all the time justifying RIV purchases with the RIV rack rate, which I'm not sure anyone has ever paid

Disney hasn't been offering discounts lately to non-APs or non-FL Residents, and a few limited offers for Visa holders. I have friends coming in February who have booked stays at Riviera, paying full rates for the rooms.

 

[Lorana]

Have to look to see if they went over the minimum increase allowed in a single year this time as that all happened pretty much in the past 2 years. It needed to but it also needs to follow the POS.

Agreed. I'm hoping to see some in-depth analysis, though I'm not sure the folks who have done so in the past are still on the Disboards.

 

[tjkraz]

Of course this is great for VGF value. The low (well, not higher than VGF1) point chart means point pricing will be high.

VGF Lake View were the single most expensive DVC studios in all of WDW. And the new Theme Park view one-ups them by 20-25%. I don't see where this is a great value by any definition of the word.

I think this chart leads to $275 direct pricing, and DVC will be able to get it.

DVC can price however they wish and the market will respond accordingly.

Back in 2013-2015, DVC was able to market VGF as 50 year contracts, selling the normal assortment of Deluxe Studio, One, Two and Three Bedroom units to buyers. VGF sold good-but-not-great at prices in the $150s.

Now they're re-opening sales with 8 fewer years and 2/3 of the rooms are modest Resort Studios, which already have vocal critics.

They can price high or they can sell at a brisk pace (say, 100-120k points per month), but both happening simultaneously is very unlikely.

Most of the DVC developments at WDW are attached to a deluxe hotel and there's history regarding how VGF sold in the past. I'm not sure why you're so convinced customer demographic and upper limits of their buying power is going to be so much different this time.

 

[JELLYROLLS4LIFE]

The only reason they convert resort rooms at ANY resort is because of occupancy number. VGF occupancy numbers must be down for them to convert rooms. (And at $800-1000 a night for that resort I am not surprised.)

I looked at BWV standard room "rates" from F&W seasons 2020 to 2023. This is for a full week:
2020: 78 points
2021: 90 points
2022: 97 points
2023: 104 points

That's a 25% increase in 3 years for F&W season. Ouch. As someone that owns 75 points for F&W I went from a 7-night stay to a 5-night stay annually if I can get a standard room.
Pool/Garden/Boardwalk view went from a107 points to 130 points in the same timeframe, so not as big an increase but pretty big nonetheless and at best I can do 4 nights in a standard view room.

Disappointing for sure.

 

[RoseGold]

VGF Lake View were the single most expensive DVC studios in all of WDW. And the new Theme Park view one-ups them by 20-25%. I don't see where this is a great value by any definition of the word.

The PP was talking about the value of their points, that is the price of the points. DVC has had its hands tied for a long time selling remote resorts, and then there's the RIV restrictions and poor Aulani. There's a reason those kiosks are staffed up. To do a money grab, you have to grab the money, and VGF is going to sell.

 

[CarolynFH]

The only reason they convert resort rooms at ANY resort is because of occupancy number. VGF occupancy numbers must be down for them to convert rooms. (And at $800-1000 a night for that resort I am not surprised.)

I looked at BWV standard room "rates" from F&W seasons 2020 to 2023. This is for a full week:
2020: 78 points
2021: 90 points
2022: 97 points
2023: 104 points

That's a 25% increase in 3 years for F&W season. Ouch. As someone that owns 75 points for F&W I went from a 7-night stay to a 5-night stay annually if I can get a standard room.
Pool/Garden/Boardwalk view went from a107 points to 130 points in the same timeframe, so not as big an increase but pretty big nonetheless and at best I can do 4 nights in a standard view room.

Disappointing for sure.

Yep. I am really glad we like to visit in January because it remained the second least expensive time period of the year. My husband‘s birthday is in early February, and I told him that we will be celebrating in January from here on out!

 

[BillPA]

When we purchased OKW 5 nights in Dec in a GV was 180 points, now 265 points, that's 47.2% increase. What a rip off. We're down to 4 contracts and those go on sale after next years trip.

 

[tjkraz]

Fun fact: at least 5 WDW DVC resorts have One Bedroom villas that cost fewer points per night than Theme Park Studios at VGC in the same seasons.

The PP was talking about the value of their points, that is the price of the points.

Both the acquisition cost and the buying power of each point are components of their value.

A VGF Studio in October costs 188 points per week for Lake View and 232 for Theme Park. At your suggested price of $275 per point, that's a purchase price of $51,700 / $63,800 for 42 years of ownership.

A Riviera Studio for the same dates is 176 points for Preferred View. At $188 per point, that's $33,088 for 48 years.

Your personal biases both against Riviera and in favor of Grand Floridian are pretty well established. I believe that YOU might spend $20,000 - $30,000 more for VGF points than for the equivalent value at Riviera. However, I'm quite skeptical that the general public would do the same in great numbers.

There's a reason those kiosks are staffed up.

Same reason as the last couple decades...

 

[JELLYROLLS4LIFE]

Why is everyone talking like they will be selling VGF points for $275 a point. They won't.

 

[RoseGold]

Your personal biases both against Riviera and in favor of Grand Floridian are pretty well established. I believe that YOU might spend $20,000 - $30,000 more for VGF points than for the equivalent value at Riviera. However, I'm quite skeptical that the general public would do the same in great numbers.

IMO, there is no equivalent value at Riviera. But if it were cheaper, I'd have all RIV points. I haven't ruled that out with RIV, BTW. If RIV keeps going like Aulani, RIV might be looking very good. And I'm only holding a few years. The mouse will get enough money in those years.

RIV's sales flagging have indicated that either the total pricing is too high, or that buyers have issues with RIV and/or resale restrictions. VGF will be the test to see the answer. VGF doesn't have to sell in great numbers, VGF will only have a couple million points to sell vs RIV's 7Mish.

 

[Sandisw]

Lots of great discussions about sales of VGF but let’s try to get back to topic regarding the point charts in general.

I am looking forward to analyzing them in relation to my travel times, especially at RIV.

 

[kilik64]

When we purchased OKW 5 nights in Dec in a GV was 180 points, now 265 points, that's 47.2% increase. What a rip off. We're down to 4 contracts and those go on sale after next years trip.

Which should mean that the same GV in another time of the year went down, so for someone who bought for that time period, they think they are getting a great deal now.

Win some, lose some.