2005 point chart out

[spiceycat]

On the DVC member website the new 2005 chart points for everything - except the Concerige and Adventure Collection are out.

all of the disney collection except for paris and ca.

 

[CarolMN]

Thanks for letting us know!

How did the points look for the Disney Collection? Much of an increase? Any big changes in room categories or seasons?

How about the 2005 DCL charts? I know DCL is technically part of the Disney Collection - Is that out, too? What did you think?



Best wishes -

 

[spiceycat]

the world collection is the same for 2005 as it was in 2004.

I am still looking at everything else.

yes the cruises are out - haven't even started to look at them.

 

[kweaver]

Hmmm...in the cruise category we're interested in...4 night bahamas, regular season, Cat 4

13%-15% increase in points

204 to 234 - adults
84 to 96 - kids 13 and up
77 to 89 - kids 6-12
75 to 86 - kids 3-5

 

[BostonDisneyKid]

I guess renting points and using cash to cruise is the way to go for sure now...

 

[tjkraz]

I took a quick look at the Disney Collection charts. At the WDW resorts, the prices went up about 1-3 points for each room class / season across the board. That's not too bad--about the same as the 3-5% Rack Rate increase at the WDW resorts for 2005.

 

[Luckymommyx2]

More and more I'm convinced that using points to book a cruise is not worth it.

 

[d-r]

Originally posted by tjkraz
I took a quick look at the Disney Collection charts. At the WDW resorts, the prices went up about 1-3 points for each room class / season across the board. That's not too bad--about the same as the 3-5% Rack Rate increase at the WDW resorts for 2005.

see, the thing is - now, don't get me wrong, I didn't buy dvc points for use at non-dvc resorts, I never have used points that way, and don't plan to - but the thing is, I don't see why the points per night for non-dvc resorts should logically go up each year.

The way I see it, when you use points at a non-dvc resort, that opens up rooms in the dvc resort that they can rent out for cash. So, the resort rates (if they really went up - last year they didn't, and there are always so many discounts) should wash out between the dvc resorts and the non-dvc resorts. What I'm saying is, a studio could always equal the price of a moderate. A one-bedroom could always equal a resort room at "Tier one" deluxes, like AKL or WL or CR garden wings, or Paradise Pier, or Disneyland Hotel; a two-bedroom could always equal the night in one of the "higher tier" deluxes like CR tower, or Polly, or Grand Californian. You can really get more complicated than you need to be if you start thinking about different views and old key west vs. ssr, etc., just use the number of points at BCV/WLV/BWV and let the non-dvc resort views wash out - for the trade off, they could get a better view for that matter. Same thing for time of year, just let it wash out by charging the dvc points for that time of year. What that would indicate would be the cash price that they would get from renting two-bedroom DVC is equal to the cash price of one of the deluxes, and so on. Surely they can rent a two-bedroom DVC for what a polly room or CR room costs. It just really doesn't make any sense to me that inflation "hits" the non-dvc resorts so that the cost to them goes up, but that the DVC inventory that they recover does not also benefit from the same rate of "inflation." They really should be constant, and disney is profiting from dvc members by not keeping them so, imho.

I think part of the the problem is they do not get rack rates from cash paying guests. This means that they discount the cash rates for the dvc rooms that they recover when members use the points elsewhere. It seems to me, that by charging members more points, while cash reservations are discounted, they are profeteering from the dvc members. At best, whoever is doing the negotiations isn't doing a very good job for dvc. But I don't think it is done through "negotiations" I think it is done through "how much will the dvc members be willing to live with."

Again, this isn't a personal issue with me - its not what I think of for the points anyway - it just seems that way to me logically.

 

[spiceycat]

DVC is set up so the DVC resorts are you best value.

the other resorts (including outside WDW) are just icing on the cake - DVC does not have to offer us these resorts.

they do because they want DVC to be flexibility.

I also though the outside of DVC would be increasing each year and lately they have.

first you are assuming that CRO can find someone to rent you DVC - that is probably not always true.

secondly, DVC does not control these points - WDW does. the agreement is with WDW.

thirdly, some DVC member would if the points were the same always stay at a WDW resort (I am thinking Polyn or the GF) not their DVC resorts - shortly DVC would lose money and the annual fees would have increase if they allowed this to happen.

remember that after you elect to stay at a non-DVC resort - CRO must find someone to rent your villa - if they don't money is lost. (the only exception is World passport - II wants all the DVC it can get - which is why that point schedule went down).

now if CRO noticied a great demand for DVC resorts from the general public - then I would think DVC would just kept some of these contracts that they are buying back - I know they say they won't kept but 3 to 5% for upkeep. but does anyone besides DVC really know how much of DVC is being kept by them.

I think DVC is a good value - for DVC resorts is a great value - for others - hey if I want to stay at the Polyn I definitely will....

 

[d-r]

Thanks for the reply, I want to comment below -

Originally posted by spiceycat
DVC is set up so the DVC resorts are you best value.

the other resorts (including outside WDW) are just icing on the cake - DVC does not have to offer us these resorts.

Like I said, I am not taking a personal argument, I didn't buy points to use at non-dvc resorts. My point is a logical one. I agree that it should be set up so that the dvc rooms are the best value - if a studio was equal to a moderate room, I'd rather stay in a studio. If a one bed-room was equal to a "lower tier" deluxe, I'd rather stay in a one bedroom. If a two bedroom was equal to an "upper tier" deluxe, I'd rather stay in a two bedroom. Those were about where the values were a couple of years ago, and they made sense.

they do because they want DVC to be flexibility.

I also though the outside of DVC would be increasing each year and lately they have.

first you are assuming that CRO can find someone to rent you DVC - that is probably not always true.

Yes, but thye found someone to rent the room at the polly or wherever, which is probably not always true, either. My point is, the trade should be equal, and shouldn't increase each year. If the cost to stay at the polly for cash goes up, so does the cost to stay at the boardwalk villas, and the points that were used at the polly frees up that room at boardwalk villas - the inventory is the inventory, they have to rent the room at the polly just like they would the bwv, so it should be a wash -

secondly, DVC does not control these points - WDW does. the agreement is with WDW.

I know that DVC doesn't set these rates up themselves. I'm not sure if they are handled at a wdw-resort wide basis, or on inidivdual basis with different resorts. I figure it is resort-wide. And I don't think this is a negotiation between dvc on behalf of its members and wdw - I think they are calculating how high they can make them without dvc members complaining.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by point #2 - are you just saying that DVC doesn't set the rate by themselves, or do you mean something else?

thirdly, some DVC member would if the points were the same always stay at a WDW resort (I am thinking Polyn or the GF) not their DVC resorts - shortly DVC would lose money and the annual fees would have increase if they allowed this to happen.

If somebody wants to buy points at SSR planning to use them at the Polly every year I couldn't care less what they spend their money on, really. The thing is, a couple of years ago it was worth it to use the points at DVC and not the resorts, because you got bigger accomodations at the DVC resort, more bang for your point. Since then they have gone up to the point of being rather silly - there isn't a balance. They are charging DVC rack rates in the conversion in using points at the non-dvc resorts, then renting out the dvc rooms that are opened up at bargain basement rates. We rented a two-bedroom at okw the weekend after Easter for $300 something dollars - it was 100 points that night. Somebody had traded in 100 points, and they sold them for about what the dues were that year.

remember that after you elect to stay at a non-DVC resort - CRO must find someone to rent your villa - if they don't money is lost.

Again, they would have to find someone to rent the non-dvc resort as well. We are wait listed for a two-bedroom and a studio in Oct, but there isn't a room at any of the DVC resorts. There are plenty of rooms available at the non-dvc resorts - in fact, member services offered us a moderate for 16 points a night - now, because that room will probably end up being offered for $99 or $109 I didn't take them up on it. Right now on Expedia.com the rack rate for that room is $144!!

Let's use Oct. 9 as an example. Here are the RACK RATE (I'm using rack rates, even though we all know there will be discounts, because the percentage discounts will be similar at the dvc and non-dvs resorts anyway, so it washes out).

Prices at OKW:
Studio - $284
1 bedroom = $385
2 bedroom = $560

Price at wilderness lodge villas goes up to $425 for a one-bedroom, and $690 for a two-bedroom - I assume the other dvcs are that sort of neighborhood.

Prices at a moderate= $144.

Now right there, if Disney just made the cost of the moderate equal to the cost of the studio, they would be making money. They'd come close to doubling it.

Standard view room at AKL = $249 (sav. view = $315)
wildernesws lodge woods view = $254 (courtyard = $290)
CR garden wing room = $264

Right here, if Disney made these lower level deluxes the same as a one-bedroom, they'd be making money.

Here are some deluxes-
yacht club - standard = $329, water = $395
CR Tower = $370
Grand FLA = $384 standard, $455 water
Polly = $345 standard, $430 water

Compare those to the $560 two-bedroom at OKW, or the $690 for the two-bedroom at wlv. If they made those deluxes = to the points at a two-bedroom, they'd be making money.

One thing is, when people rent through cro for cash they'd get maid service, but I can't believe that maid service for the CRO cash rooms actually cost what they charge on the alacarte system - even so, they'd still come out ahead!

Let's look at the points

OKW studio 8/21
OKW one-bedroom 18/41
OKW 2-bedroom 22/54

WLV studio 12/23
WLV one-bedroom 22/45
WLV two-bedroom 30/60 (we know the other resorts are the same or between OKW and WLV)

Now the points for the non-dvc resorts (I'm only going to do standard view, the other views go up from there, and these are 2004 points, 2005 goes up!!) -

moderates 15/27

OK, stop right there for a second. Those studios that rent for almost twice as much case as the moderate rooms cost less points than the moderate rooms. Again, this goes up in 2005!

AKL = 32/58
CR wing = 29/52
Here we see that these rooms are more points than the one-bedrooms, which we already know rent for more money than the non=dvc resort rooms -

yacht club = 36/65
polly 38/68
grand fla 43/73
cont. tower 41/74

Compare to the points per night for the two-bedroom dvcs, then compare the cash price of these to the cash price of the two-bedroom dvcs.

Now let me say this, I picked Oct 9 because we are going during that time, I didn't try to find a specific time of year that maximized any thing, and I don't have it in me to look at all times of the year, but it looks like the same pattern to me. Easter Week may be different. Also, remember I looked at the 2004 points, these go up again in 2005 so the difference is even bigger - I assume that any dollar amount that the non-dvc resorts go up will be accompanied by the same dollar amount increase in the DVC resorts.

This is really the point. When we use dvc points at non-dvc resorts, it opens up rooms at the dvc resorts that can be rented for cash. Therefore, the points for the rooms at non-dvc resorts should NEVER go up, because the increase in cash rates happens for both non-dvc and dvc resorts. The room at the polly or wherever may cost more in 2005, but the room you are leaving open at OKW will rent for more, too. The amount that Disney accepts as "risk" of not being able to rent out the dvc resort isn't a sliding scale factor - that risk should be the same any year and so shouldn't go up, and frankly, they are at less of a risk anyway, because they could use the DVC points at any time, whereas they know have a solid reservation at one of the non-dvc resorts that had an opening. If they can't use the points that week at the non-dvc resort, they can use them next week. This is a very safe proposition for Disney if you ask me.

now if CRO noticied a great demand for DVC resorts from the general public - then I would think DVC would just kept some of these contracts that they are buying back - I know they say they won't kept but 3 to 5% for upkeep. but does anyone besides DVC really know how much of DVC is being kept by them.

I really think it is in the legal paper work that they can only keep so much. I don't think they can change that, and if they did, really, it would have an impact on the value of the points we bought so I don't think they can.

I think DVC is a good value - for DVC resorts is a great value - for others - hey if I want to stay at the Polyn I definitely will....

My point isn't about the value of the DVC points. I thought it was a good value when I bought them and I still do, that isn't my point. Again, I didn't buy the points to stay at non-dvc resorts (that's what weekends and AP rates are for).

My point is that, IMHO, someone isn't looking out for the best interest of DVC members in setting these rates. Instead, they are looking at maximizing Disney's profit. Logically, the rates should stay the same every year unless for some reason the cash rates at the DVC resorts drop. And they haven't.

Let's look at it one final way. Let's say on a weekend night in Oct. I used 22 points for a one-bedrrom at wlv. CRO would have harged me a rack rate of $425. So the value of my points is $19.32, according to CRO. WHAT A BARGAIN! Now, let's say that I used 32 points at AKL for a standard view room. CRO would have charged me a rack rate of $249. Well, $7.78 a point. Shoot, not as good.

That ratio should be the same across all resorts if you think about it logically. The "risk" to disney is part of the ratio, but it should be constant. Right now there is error in it, some things are relative "bargains" and others are more costly, but every case stacks up against the DVC owner - and every year it gets stacked higher.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by BostonDisneyKid
I guess renting points and using cash to cruise is the way to go for sure now...

LOL, that's like saying gas wasn't high until it reached $2 per gallon. While I agree it's unreasonable for DVC to offer exchange options that have little or no value, I do understand their situation. They must supply the rooms to CRO who takes a cut (I assume) then if the rooms aren't rented, it's a total loss. Plus they likely discount the rooms at least part of the time. IMO, the return should be in teh $7-8 per point range though I'd like it to be more.

 

[MelissathePooh]

This d-r on Melissa's computer, I wanted to revise. I was looking increases from 2004-5, but I looked at the member guide from 2003 and the jump from 2003-05 is very little, and, in fact, the moderates have actually went DOWN a little from 2003. NOT as bad as I thought!