13 Year old gir declared brain dead has now officially died

[Pea-n-Me]

What happened in the aftermath of this situation is also complex. The family was angry, understandably so. They felt as if they were ignored (ironically enough, Jahi's grandmother is an RN whose job includes teaching empathetic responses to hospital staff), and then they were told Jahi was dead, and they weren't ready to accept that as an answer.

What's interesting in the link posted a few pages back, is that more recent imaging of her brain showed that her brain stem was mush, but that parts of her cerebral cortex appear intact. That, along with the fact that she does seem to be having some purposeful movements - confirmed by a particular expert in Neurology - makes it very likely this case will go on for a long time. Jahi also began menstruating, which is determined by hormones controlled by a certain part of the brain, which is more confirmation that parts of her brain are working.

 

[Southernmiss]

What happened in the aftermath of this situation is also complex. The family was angry, understandably so. They felt as if they were ignored (ironically enough, Jahi's grandmother is an RN whose job includes teaching empathetic responses to hospital staff), and then they were told Jahi was dead, and they weren't ready to accept that as an answer.

What's interesting in the link posted a few pages back, is that more recent imaging of her brain showed that her brain stem was mush, but that parts of her cerebral cortex appear intact. That, along with the fact that she does seem to be having some purposeful movements - confirmed by a particular expert in Neurology - makes it very likely this case will go on for a long time. Jahi also began menstruating, which is determined by hormones controlled by a certain part of the brain, which is more confirmation that parts of her brain are working.

Sources I have read indicated the grandmother was a LPN, not as much training as an RN.

 

[Hannahinwonderland]

Not according to Oxford Dictionary.

Racist: A person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another.

I don't see how this definition is happening in this situation. Believing that you are being treated wrong because of your race does not have anything to do with a) discriminating against members of another race or b) believing your race is superior.

Either way, this may be something we just won't ever agree on, and therefore, i'm going to move on. Either way, I feel terrible for the poor family, who certainly did not want to end up with a daughter who has been kept on life support for such a long time.

 

[robinb]

What happened in the aftermath of this situation is also complex. The family was angry, understandably so. They felt as if they were ignored (ironically enough, Jahi's grandmother is an RN whose job includes teaching empathetic responses to hospital staff), and then they were told Jahi was dead, and they weren't ready to accept that as an answer.

What's interesting in the link posted a few pages back, is that more recent imaging of her brain showed that her brain stem was mush, but that parts of her cerebral cortex appear intact. That, along with the fact that she does seem to be having some purposeful movements - confirmed by a particular expert in Neurology - makes it very likely this case will go on for a long time. Jahi also began menstruating, which is determined by hormones controlled by a certain part of the brain, which is more confirmation that parts of her brain are working.

I thought that part was interesting too. Add to that the information that her heart rate changed when music was played and when people talked to her from both sides of her bed have made me actually rethink my opinion on whether she is dead or if she is in a sub-vegetative state. I *still* think they should unplug her and let her go, but the bright line of "brain dead" had become blurred for me.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Sources I have read indicated the grandmother was a LPN, not as much training as an RN.

Ok, you are probably right. I thought I saw "RN" but most articles refer to her as "a nurse".

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I thought that part was interesting too. Add to that the information that her heart rate changed when music was played and when people talked to her from both sides of her bed have made me actually rethink my opinion on whether she is dead or if she is in a sub-vegetative state. I *still* think they should unplug her and let her go, but the bright line of "brain dead" had become blurred for me.

I haven't given it a ton of thought, but I don't think it's blurred the lines for me, per se. Even if she does *now* have a teeny bit of brain function (and that's debatable), her quality of life is poor to non-existent. She is completely dependent on machines and others to care for her and will be for the foreseeable future, unless things improve drastically, which is unlikely given that her brain stem is gone. Brain death is determined at a particular time, and at the time hers was determined, it was verified by multiple experts, without any uncertainty at all. Judges were involved and looked over all the information numerous times. Most people would not have been kept on life support for all this time to be re-scanned years later.

 

[robinb]

I haven't given it a ton of thought, but I don't think it's blurred the lines for me, per se. Even if she does *now* have a teeny bit of brain function (and that's debatable), her quality of life is poor to non-existent. She is completely dependent on machines and others to care for her and will be for the foreseeable future, unless things improve drastically, which is unlikely given that her brain stem is gone. Brain death is determined at a particular time, and at the time hers was determined, it was verified by multiple experts, without any uncertainty at all. Judges were involved and looked over all the information numerous times. Most people would not have been kept on life support for all this time to be re-scanned years later.

Right, that's what makes it intellectually interesting to me. There are few data points where we can see even a teeny tiny bit of possible brain function recovery after an extended period of time.

As for quality of life, I don't think that Jahi's mother never really quite understood Jahi's condition.

From the New Yorker article:

When Jahi arrived in New Jersey, she hadn’t been fed for more than three weeks, and her organs were failing. The chief of pediatric critical care at St. Peter’s wrote in her records that there was “no hope of brain recovery.” Nailah said, “I didn’t have a clue. I had really thought that I would get her a feeding tube and a tracheotomy, and she would just get up, and we would be good.”

It's a very sad story. Poor Jahi should have been let go years ago but I really don't see that happening now. They are too far invested in keeping her body going.

 

[LSUmiss]

I'm not saying its "good" to be against another race, or even that Jahi's family isn't prejudiced against white people. All I am saying is that they are not RACIST, you can't be racist against a group that is not systemically oppressed. Racism is rooted in oppression and a belief of superiority that is culturally ingrained.

Give it up! I’ve been down this road in other threads. It’s exhausting.

 

[LSUmiss]

Honestly, I do not think this is a case of Jahi not getting proper care because of the color of her skin. I say that having worked early in my career in a hospital very similar to CHO, and in similar adult hospitals ever since. (That is not to dispute studies that say there can be a disparity in the care of African Americans and other minorities, because I believe that can be true. But I think something else was at play here.)

From what I've read of the case, what I think needed to happen was that Jahi be taken back to the OR to correct the bleeding, likely from the carotid artery that was very near to the surgical site, and that didn't happen. It didn't happen because the covering doctors did not intervene when they were notified repeatedly throughout the evening of her bleeding**. (See Section 22 of the Malpractice document above.) This can, unfortunately, sometimes happen in hospitals where it's part of the culture to allow tired and overwhelmed doctors to ignore requests for help, especially at night.

The nurses had a responsibility to escalate their requests for assistance when they got no response from the doctors on call, taking it as high or as broad as they needed to to get help for Jahi. (Sections 30-33.) That is not always an easy thing to do, especially for a less-experienced staff. And I'll admit that sometimes it's a lot easier to look back at things and say we should've done this or that, than it is looking forward when you're in that actual situation and perhaps trying to care for someone like Jahi as well as another patient (or patients) who may be vomiting, or having complications or pain, also, and dealing with families' questions and concerns, etc.

But pints of blood are too much blood to lose. A little blood, yes. That much blood, no.

This was a very unfortunate situation in a lot of ways.

But I don't believe it had anything to do with her race. Had she been a white girl, the response likely wouldn't have been any different. (UNLESS she was the family member of a VIP - THAT would've gotten attention, sadly enough.)

I hope when this case eventually comes to court that it helps change the culture in hospitals that still exists today that some doctors don't want to be disturbed, and learn that by dragging their feet over and over they can get away with not responding to requests. There was a case in the 80s that changed culture once before in a big way, where legislation dictated how many hours resident doctors could be working after a young diabetic woman died as the result of an error by a resident who'd been working for 36 hours straight. I hope that this case has similar results in that requests for assistance cannot be ignored.

** Hospitals can track electronically who was paged, how many times, and what was said, etc., so I'm sure they have that information; there will also be documentation in notes.

I think this summarizes what I was trying to articulate upthread & got accused of having a “bias” against the medical profession. This is the culture that I have witnessed with my own eyes as a patient family member & an employee in the system. I blame the system b/c it’s run like any other business with $$$ being the most important & a lot of the staff are just overworked & often get jaded including the drs. I agree this case may not be about race. But, I do think it’s likely negligence if the scenario is like you described. Also, when it is about race, I don’t think it’s intentional discrimination as often as it’s about cultures differences & maybe stereotyping about those difference so concerns are dismissed. An example of this is the fact that they wanted to keep her alive & some ppl can’t understand so they assume it’s for a secondary gain like $$. In my experience, culture & religion play a huge role in when one is considered “dead” no matter what science & medical professionals tell them. These are not my beliefs, but I have seen many families refuse to come to terms with things b/c they wholeheartedly believed a miracle was possible no matter who told them otherwise.

 

[mousefanmichelle]

What if this case is the one that will change the medical description of brain death? What if Jahi is more alive than dead? For all the years this case has been going on, I have often thought this. I am not a doctor and I am not the parent of a child that has suffered such a fatal incident. I don't know how I would react if she was my child. Could I let her go if I believed differently than everyone else? What if that mother believes beyond all reason that her daughter is moving voluntairly? Would she have started her period if she were completely brain dead? So many questions and its so easy for us to sit here and say xy and z but who knows? Maybe this young lady will change something or maybe nothing will change and she will continue to be on life support and we will continue to come here for updates and debate life and death and what we think someone should do.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

What if this case is the one that will change the medical description of brain death? What if Jahi is more alive than dead? For all the years this case has been going on, I have often thought this. I am not a doctor and I am not the parent of a child that has suffered such a fatal incident. I don't know how I would react if she was my child. Could I let her go if I believed differently than everyone else? What if that mother believes beyond all reason that her daughter is moving voluntairly? Would she have started her period if she were completely brain dead? So many questions and its so easy for us to sit here and say xy and z but who knows? Maybe this young lady will change something or maybe nothing will change and she will continue to be on life support and we will continue to come here for updates and debate life and death and what we think someone should do.

A case like this is exceedingly rare, so I doubt that there will be an impact on brain death consideration. Courts have agreed. Additionally, her mother has given up her whole life, and even the lives of her other children and husband, for this. As long as they want to keep Jahi's body going, they will need to keep up this level of care with her. And they are running out of places to go. Even the hospital in NJ, where she went from CHO, discharged her (ETA with a diagnosis of Brain Death). They're in a private apartment now, and the State of NJ's Medicaid is paying for her care. (I believe they said at a cost of $150K/week, or $7,800.000/yr.) Mom was torn from her life in CA, and her good job with Home Depot. Now, she posts a picture of herself with a new pocketbook, and people are down her throat about spending money. Not much of a life for any of them, really. I think people really have to look at quality of life when they're looking at brain death issues. (Ymmv.) Jahi is not more alive than dead. Body functions continuing, or a small, questionable response to some stimuli, does not equal life.

 

[robinb]

A case like this is exceedingly rare, so I doubt that there will be an impact on brain death consideration.

I agree, but it's "chicken and egg" for me. You can't say that it won't have any impact on the determination of brain death because the case exceedingly rare when the case is exceedingly rare because of the current determination on brain death.

 

[bcla]

As for quality of life, I don't think that Jahi's mother never really quite understood Jahi's condition.

Grandmother is a licensed vocational nurse in California and theoretically should set them straight on this.

https://search.dca.ca.gov/details/4301/VN/136796/4faeb2c9132b202daac3bd2368204444

The other issue is that we really have no idea what the condition of the corpse is. They're pumping the corpse full of drugs to keep the cells alive.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I agree, but it's "chicken and egg" for me. You can't say that it won't have any impact on the determination of brain death because the case exceedingly rare when the case is exceedingly rare because of the current determination on brain death.

In a personal note appended to the end of the report, the chairman of the council, Edmund Pellegrino, expressed regret regarding the lack of empirical precision. He wrote that attempts to articulate the boundaries of death “end in some form of circular reasoning—defining death in terms of life and life in terms of death without a true ‘definition’ of one or the other.”

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/...=affiliate_impactpmx_12f6tote_desktop_VigLink

 

[hereyago]

I don't believe the claim of her menustrating, because she is dead.

I don't think Mamanails is at her bedside 24/7. I hope the jury finds the hospital no guilty. And this will be over and Jahi's body can be laid to rest. No more FB pics of her corpse wearing fun glasses or a baby put beside her.

 

[DisneyFan32WI]

I went to stalk her FB page, and I typed in her first and last name. There is actually a fake FB account and the administrator calls the mom "MamaNails."

 

[Disney1fan2002]

What if this case is the one that will change the medical description of brain death? What if Jahi is more alive than dead? For all the years this case has been going on, I have often thought this. I am not a doctor and I am not the parent of a child that has suffered such a fatal incident. I don't know how I would react if she was my child. Could I let her go if I believed differently than everyone else? What if that mother believes beyond all reason that her daughter is moving voluntarily? Would she have started her period if she were completely brain dead? So many questions and its so easy for us to sit here and say xy and z but who knows? Maybe this young lady will change something or maybe nothing will change and she will continue to be on life support and we will continue to come here for updates and debate life and death and what we think someone should do.

This case will not change the description of brain death. It may however get scientists interested in researching whether or not brains can recover SOME function after being declared dead after so many years. In order for that to happen, they would need human patients. I don't think there are too many people who would agree to being a science experiment being kept breathing on a ventilator without out EVER waking up. Because, like it or not, not matter how much frontal lobe activity she regains, her brain stem is MUSH...that is her brain. That is what allows motor function and breathing. The bolded red above...Jahi is not more alive than dead. When you have a machine doing the breathing for you, oxygen keeping your heart beating and supplemental nutrients keeping your electrolytes going, you are not more alive than dead. Look at her pictures over the years. Her eyes will NEVER OPEN. Her mouth...her lips are parted the exact same space apart. She does not move a muscle. I don't believe those videos showing her moving on command. If her family is so sure she no longer meets the criteria for brain death, than why will they not allow anymore testing to be done?

I myself could not stand to see my child just laying in a bed with no life in her. Not to see her smile, or laugh or even look at me. Just lay there, asleep....to never again hear her voice. See the brightness in her eyes.

 

[hereyago]

I went to stalk her FB page, and I typed in her first and last name. There is actually a fake FB account and the administrator calls the mom "MamaNails."

Yea, that name has been used in regards to the mom by a couple different forums.

 

[North of Mouse]

and disgusting at the same time. Who in the world is financing all of this?

 

[mnrose]

and disgusting at the same time. Who in the world is financing all of this?

Taxpayers of New Jersey. Nice, huh?

A complete waste. Think of the good that money could do for literally thousands of other living children. SMH.

I hope never to be in that position with my children, but I hope that I have the grace to let my child go if it comes to that.