$1.28 BILLION for Tokyo Disney

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Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
OK!!! Enough of this nonsense!! Once again my lurk mode has been disturbed by STUPIDITY!!! And I am forced to respond!

Peter, old friend!!! Did you want to hook me or AV? I’m betting AV, and I waited an appropriate amount of time, but… Oh heck!!! It looks like I have to do it!!!
[/B]

Hell, he hooked me and I'm just a lurker (for the most part) here. I'm usually found on the new and improved "Slings & Arrows" Community Board.

But, getting back to the issue at hand:

I'd give my eyeteeth to see something like Tokyo Disney here in Florida. Not only would I get my money's worth out of my AP, I'd get my money's worth out of 50 APs.
 
As far as one nice hotel easily costing 600 million dollars, in ever so expensive San Diego Hilton is building an exclusive convention center hotel.

32 stories high, 1.65 million square foot structure, with a 6 story 2000 car parking structure on 12.8 acres of land 4.3 of which are being converted into a public park. For 285 million. Or less than half of what a nice hotel would easily cost.

I thing you should look at how much money it cost to build AKL or the Hotel Mira Costa in Tokyo. No they didn't cost 600 million but much more than you would think.
 
Originally posted by idofabric
When we lived in Japan we went to TDL 5 times. The first time we waited over 4 hours to get in 'cause we were there 2 hours after it opened. This was a loooooooong time ago-1980.


I know the Japanese line up early for big events like new year's and such but why would they line up three years before the park even opened? :p
 
Originally posted by King Triton
Why can't Disney find a way to get investors to build a park like DisneySea in the U.S.??:( Come on...Disney is an American Icon and the highest quality parks are being built in Japan. :mad:

When you compare California Adventure with DisneySea, it makes all Disney fans here feel ripped off.

:worried: :sad2: :sad:

That's what happens when a Disney park isn't owned by the Disney company.
 

Landbaron, I hope you know Peter11435 is not me...Just another logical thinking DIS'er...

As for my coments on the Japenese Parks, I really didn't mean to offend anyone and my opinions are not cast in stone here as I HAVE NOT been there. If the two folks I spoke to who have been there and described the crowds to me and the Travel Channel show that I saw were misrepresentative of the norm, and they certainly could be, I'm willing to be shown. Unlike Landbaron I am wiling to learn...:wave:

As for Tokyo Disney being that superior to WDW, is it really? I'd like to hear from folks with first hand experieince who can specify WHY the whole of the Japanese Parks (both of them) are so much better than all that WDW has to offer.
pirate:
 
When I visited Tokyo Disneyland and DisneySea, I only waited 30 minutes outside the gate for it to open. This is their version of rope drop. Then at 9:00 a.m. the park opens, and EVERYTHING in the park is open.

Bretsyboo, I agree with you 100%. I can't believe the number stateside Eisner/Disney apologists who are happy with the second rate stuff Burbank is giving us.

Larry
 
OK! First things first…

Crusader:
we can. All we need to do is float bonds, hide debt and relax regs.
Do you do this on purpose? Just to further the dialogue? I can’t understand for a moment how you can possibly believe this. If you were new here or had never visited Jewell then I could cast it off as being naive. But honestly, after all this time it is simply amazing that you totally disregard the wanton waste and greed involved in stateside Disney®!!

How much money would the parks NOT have to bear if ABC wasn’t theirs? If GO.COM would have died years before it actually did? If overpriced and underperforming cable outlets had NOT been purchased? If DCA would have either NEVER been built or perhaps built the Japanese way, where people would actually WANT to go there and actually PAY for it?!?! (The same could be said for AK, MGM (to a certain extent) and the revitalization of EPCOT.) And lastly, for this short list off the top of my head, if the avarice of Ei$ner was at least a little in check?

Yet still you spout this nonsense that Disney cannot afford it? HOW RIDICULOUS!!! They cannot afford NOT to!!!!

Sorry Bret. I honestly thought your post was excellent, but we have to look at this beyond comparing parks.
And just why won’t a comparison work? So why don’t you take us “beyond”.

Peter!!!
I hope you know Peter11435 is not me
I was a bit concerned at first!! I didn’t realize that there were two very confused people living on the DIS!!!! :)
As for my comments on the Japanese Parks, I really didn't mean to offend anyone
Of course you didn’t OFFEND anyone!!! Unless someone is offended by the illogical!!

As for Tokyo Disney being that superior to WDW, is it really? I'd like to hear from folks with first hand experience who can specify WHY the whole of the Japanese Parks (both of them) are so much better than all that WDW has to offer.
It seems to me that anytime we have first hand experience, their reports are absolutely GLOWING!!!! Have you EVER seen anything to the contrary? Do you read any of the posts from larry_poppins? He seems to have a pretty good handle on things!!!!

ThAnswr
Hell, he hooked me and I'm just a lurker (for the most part) here. I'm usually found on the new and improved "Slings & Arrows" Community Board.
You poor soul!!!! Here at the “Meaningful Disney Board” we have a 12 step program that can take you to full recovery!!! I think you should attend. I mean, it seems as though you’re half way there already. The first step is admitting you have a problem!!!!! :)

I hope you join!! I like the way you think!!!

I will let Mr. Boo answer the rest. His posts are exceedingly EXCELLENT!!!! An AV in the making, unless I miss my guess!!
 
Baron, our retired DIS friend DR visited the Parks in Japan and while I recall his reports were very good I also recall them being more in focus than most I've read here...Yes, there were VERY, VERY good things to be found in Japan, some much better than here but I remember some things were (surprisingly) not as good...Perhaps I'm not remembering correctly but I have no reason to bash Japan Disney after all their profits are shared (the bigger the better)...
pirate:
 
I thing you should look at how much money it cost to build AKL or the Hotel Mira Costa in Tokyo. No they didn't cost 600 million but much more than you would think.

Ahhh, well AKL's sister over at california adventure cost 100 million.

And just for a littlemore Japan V US comparison, tokyo disneysea expansion that made it into TDLR cost 2.91 billion.

The entirety of DCA's additions including all of the expansion that happened (eg hotels, dtd...) was 1.4 billion.

Mira Costa was approximately 250 million.

I haven't been able to find out AKL yet.
 
And just for a littlemore Japan V US comparison, tokyo disneysea expansion that made it into TDLR cost 2.91 billion.

The entirety of DCA's additions including all of the expansion that happened (eg hotels, dtd...) was 1.4 billion.

That 2.91 billion at Tokyo includes the entire expansion, two hotels, and a downtown disney type complex. And trust me when I tell you the Grand Californian is no AKL.

Its also important to point out the average per guest spending on Tokyo is 50% higher than in the US. Just food for thought.
 
error, originally I was going to put the expansion into a resort, it was an oversight.

I still think the point stands.

I realize that the grand californian isn't AKL.

Is AKL easily 6 times the Grand Californian?

Are all Disney quality hotels 6 times the Grand Californian?

If Tokyo has approximatly 400 million set aside on hotels and theatres etc, and a good hotel easily costs more, is it your contention that they will not be building a worthwhile hotel?
 
Originally posted by bretsyboo
error, originally I was going to put the expansion into a resort, it was an oversight.

I still think the point stands.

I realize that the grand californian isn't AKL.

Is AKL easily 6 times the Grand Californian?

Are all Disney quality hotels 6 times the Grand Californian?

If Tokyo has approximatly 400 million set aside on hotels and theatres etc, and a good hotel easily costs more, is it your contention that they will not be building a worthwhile hotel?

No, my point is simply that 1.28 billion over four years divided by 2 parks and the resort of the TDR is not as mush as is sounds. While they so spend more per addition that the disney, It's not as much of a difference as one might think.
 
Baron

My apologies. It appears my ambiguous attempt at pointing out how Japan gets things done has led you to jump over the Pacific on me.

Believe me, any remarks I choose to make regarding the Asian expansion project(s) in no way excuse greed within the Disney compound.

But let me answer the question regarding Disney's ability to afford this.

No - They can't.

And unless you can come up with some brilliant reason why they can't afford not to, I'll concede that this park will be the one that got away.

Now onto this:

And just why won’t a comparison work? So why don’t you take us “beyond”.

It’s the old grass is always greener analogy. It irks me because we’re fawning over a park built in Japan – This Japan - during this timeperiod……….

http://www2.gol.com/users/coynerhm/japans_technological_woes.htm

It's hailed as being a success because of its innovative design - which fails to explain how Universal’s park has beaten their attendance levels over the years (I don’t know about this year) and continues to be a great success.

It's wrong to praise Japan for something solely on the basis of outward appearance with an utter disregard for what OLC did to finance and build it.
 
Originally posted by Samirella
I know the Japanese line up early for big events like new year's and such but why would they line up three years before the park even opened? :p
Sorry, I miss typed this date... If you read the rest of the post you should have seen that we lived there from 1987 to 1990....
I am not the best at the keyboard.....
 
thats right crusader, disney can afford to spend 3.2 billion in china on a shopping district with a mini park but cant spend less than half of that improving and expanding what they've already got.

Maybe after china is done.

Oh wait, then they are going to have to scrape up enough change for chinas second park AND chinas 2nd resort. Why should we even think that they can afford to expand what they've got here at all? No, we should be happy for Tokyo constantly expanding with top rate product and we should be happy that in florida they can celebrate a decade long empty lagoon being filled for a character meet and greet, and in california they can celebrate having buildings be repainted.



Poor Mikey, Disney can probably only afford a bronze watch when he retires.

Oh, and tokyos 2 parks have averaged 70 thousand guests a day in their two parks, marks that eclipse all 4 of WDW's parks.

As for Attendance in the parks, TDR had both of it's parks individually beat universal in 2001, 2002, and 2003. Not just beat, whalloped, killed, crushed, and they are expanding. Honestly, I don't even know what made you think they were losing to Universal??? This is the first year Universal Japan has even been profitable!

As far as Peter watering down 1.28 billion over 4 years, and two theme parks and other resorts..the money they have put forward just to expanding and improving the current parks is enough money to build 7 versions of their tower of terror (or 14 of the cheapo off the shelf california adventure variety) That's just the money put towards improving the parks, and ignores the other 400 million...or 4 grand californians worth...being put into the resort aspect. So tell me for the first time what anyone here sees happening state side at the disneyland resort that appraches what is happening in japan, and I'm begging pirate to show me in what possible way walt disney world, with its doube the theme parks, triple the resorts, 2 water parks, biggest DTD, golf courses, wide world of sports etc. etc. etc. is doing to improve and expand their resort that shows the effort put forth by the much smaller japan resort isn't as good as it looks, and the resorts are actually close in what they are doing to enhance the guest experience. You must know something I don't.

And then someone can explain to me how 1.28billion just to improve existing parks isn't so grand compared to the states...when in california they spent just 1.4 billion turning disneyland into a resort over the same amount of time. Just think, if Disney put that sort of effort into improving DLR you would double what they gave you in the first place.
 
Not to mention the fact that Hong Kong/China is footing most of the bill for the joke that is Hong Kong Disney.

In all honesty Im gonna wait and see what OLC actually does with the money, and then reserve overall judgement of the attractions until I experience them.
 
As for Attendance in the parks, TDR had both of it's parks individually beat universal in 2001, 2002, and 2003. Not just beat, whalloped, killed, crushed, and they are expanding. Honestly, I don't even know what made you think they were losing to Universal??? This is the first year Universal Japan has even been profitable!

Bret - where did you get this from?

According to Jim Hill -

http://www.orlandoweekly.com/news/eyedrive/index.asp?navId=1023

The international battle actually began in March 2001, when Universal Studios opened the company's first overseas theme park in Osaka, Japan. The park -- featuring exact duplicates of many of the more popular attractions at Universal Studios Florida -- is a huge hit with Japanese tourists. Even though that nation is still in the depths of a decade-long depression, Universal Studios Japan still racked up 11 million visitors in its first year. That's the fastest any theme park has ever reached that attendance milestone.

Six months later, Disney upped its own ante in Asia by opening Tokyo Disney Seas, a $2 billion addition to the Tokyo Disneyland resort. Even though Tokyo Disney Seas was entirely financed by the Japanese consortium that owns it, and not by Disney, the Mouse still benefits from the name recognition generated by the high-tech park. The move significantly helped expand the Disney brand in the Asian marketplace.

Nevertheless, Universal Studios Japan still came out on top, attendance-wise, that is.
 
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