$1.28 BILLION for Tokyo Disney

[crusader]

Ok I see.

Tempted as I am to distinguish the accuracy of this data, I'll accept it for what it is.

So yes, you're right. Disney is beating Universal in Japan. Regardless of whether these numbers are inflated or how they're tallied, the fact remains that with the exception of the year USJ opened its' doors, TDL and TDS have experienced much higher levels of attendance.

So why is this? Most of what I read around here seems to point in the direction of innovation. But is that really the truth?

Well here's a pretty good theory about TDL you may want to take a look at (from a potential suit, no doubt - so read it for what its' worth):

http://www.harvardmagazine.com/issues/ja97/right.disney.html

and here's some insight into USJ:

http://www.academyhills.com/gijiroku/26/26_9a.html

From which I'd like to emphasize the following:

The Japanese consumer is undoubtedly the most discriminating and demanding consumer in the world. As I said before, we have to pay attention to "authenticity," and also attention to detail and quality. Because this is a very densely populated market, bad word-of-mouth will kill you quickly, but good word-of-mouth will build repeat visitation.

Unfortunately, scandal is exactly what happened to USJ.

http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/archive/200208/14/20020814p2a00m0oa025000c.html

Ah yes, this is the Japan we all know and love.

So my question is: what factor did this mess play on attendance and how is it this park still manages to draw over 70% of the TDS volume having experienced all this?

 

[wtg2000]

As for Tokyo Disney being that superior to WDW, is it really? I'd like to hear from folks with first hand experience who can specify WHY the whole of the Japanese Parks (both of them) are so much better than all that WDW has to offer.

It's difficult to compare wholes because WDW is bigger, but breaking it down, yes, I think it is. For example, everything on Splash Mountain seemed to work in Tokyo, whereas at WDW a lot of the effects are broken. I found Tokyo cleaner and better staffed. The restaurants were all open and had more variety. The canoes were running on Rivers of America. Their Pooh is much better!

DisneySea blows away AK or MGM at opening - and even now. I thought their shows were better (Mystic Rhythms, ENCORE, Mermaid, etc) and actually more geared to adults than children. I could go on but I thought the whole experience was better. Actually, what WDW was like maybe 15 years ago!

 

[bretsyboo]

Tempted as I am to distinguish the accuracy of this data, I'll accept it for what it is.

You shouldn't be tempted to inflate it at all. Amusemant Business Magazine is the number one source bar none for theme park attendance. Every year they release a book (practically) that costs 65 dollars that will have any sort of statistic you could possibly dream of for theme parks and who goes to them, and what they are looking for, etc. There isn't anyone who has anything to do with what goes in parks, or effects anything about the parks that doesn't have one of these on their desk. If you are thinking the people who (illegally) reprinted this data were for whatever reason inflating it, you have no basis for that. If you were thinking Disney was inflating it and Universal wasn't, well not only is there no basis for that, but it's completely inaccurate. They don't say hey disney, how many did you draw fopr animal kingdom? Disney won't tell them. They do their own studies, their own counts, their own research, their own everything, and unless you want to accuse Eisner and his cronies of passing off erronious information to make the data innacurate then there is no reason to doubt the accuracy of the data. Somehow I don't think you'll be doing that.

the fact remains that with the exception of the year USJ opened its' doors, TDL and TDS have experienced much higher levels of attendance.

Don't spin. There is no exception. TDL drew a record number of people that year. The most a theme park has ever received. Even if you expand USJ to an entire year it falls 5 million people short. USJ was open 6 more months than Disney Seas. Per month TDS was far more popular. Over an entire year they would have garnered 4 million more people. It is absolutly insidious to claim USJ was more successful than TDS because it happened to be open 6 months prior, when TDS was clearly the more popular park.

So why is this? Most of what I read around here seems to point in the direction of innovation. But is that really the truth?

Again, I don't know why innovation is even discussed. You brought up previously that Japan wasn't as innovative as it was...or something along those lines. Yes, they are owned by the OLC, but by the way...WDI makes their stuff. They are just willing to pay for the best. Just like their pooh ride, anyone who's been there will tell you it's the absolute best. Well it was popular enough that it was to be put in florida, only as a large downgrade from what was. Then it was popular enough to be put in california, only again, with more cuts. All of the innovation comes from the same people, with the Japanese wanting the best.

So my question is: what factor did this mess play on attendance and how is it this park still manages to draw over 70% of the TDS volume having experienced all this?

Glad you asked, that's easy! None! Your article was purely from a market standpoint, and not a guest. Now do you want to get into stock prices are what makes a good park? Considering Disney has been below the dow for the decade, and the oriental land company 15% above it? I didn't think so.

USJ, as I said, was having their first ever profitable year. Not a big suprise that it took a few years, it often does for non disney parks, and with the exception of japan, it now often does for disney parks.

However if the Japanese guest are really scared of scandal in japan, then you can explain why this year their attendance has gone up 50% (Forbes), I'll tell you why, Spiderman the ride has hit their park over there, and as a ride that is widly known as "The best ride ever" and the Japanese and their love of things that aren't crap, it makes perfect sense. Looks like scandals haven't exactly set back their attendance...

Why does it Draw 70% of what Disney draws?
Hmmm...
Well for one, disney has two parks in close proximity staling guests away, which is why TDL's attendance dropped so heavily in it's second year. More overall guests spending money, but less guests per park. It's a pattern you will see at every Disney Park that has ever been built. It's very telling that both parks draw a substantial number of guests more than USJ's one park.

For two universal is a very good park, and any good park is going to get their due.

For 3 THEY ARE 345 MILES APART. THEY ARE BOTH LOCATED IN HUGE CITIES. Wonder if the local population not wanting to drive 7 hours there and back in a weekend with USJ in their own backyard has anything to do with it?


So perhaps the Japanese just like little giggling girls like the one article seems to suggest. Maybe if HKDL were there, you'd get the same number. Besides this being incredibly stupid on it's base...no matter what the culture is better is better and there would be less people willing to shell out the money for a lesser park. It's called logic.

But most importantly...

The Japanese consumer is undoubtedly the most discriminating and demanding consumer in the world. As I said before, we have to pay attention to "authenticity," and also attention to detail and quality.

Good for them, they demand good products and they are getting good products, while over here on this message board we continue to have apologists for the lesser quality we are getting. And because people are blindly accepting pop century's, and dino lands, and california screamin', and all of the other trash that's been thrown at them, TDLR will continue to be the only place continually striving to make dreams come true.

 

[crusader]

If you are thinking the people who (illegally) reprinted this data were for whatever reason inflating it, you have no basis for that.

Not at all. I'm just wondering how they count their guests. If I'm there in one day and visit both parks, am I counted once or twice?

It is absolutly insidious to claim USJ was more successful than TDS because it happened to be open 6 months prior, when TDS was clearly the more popular park.

Tell that to Jim Hill - it's his claim, not mine. I assume he utilized some reliable basis before formulating that opinion.

Glad you asked, that's easy! None! Your article was purely from a market standpoint, and not a guest

No. no. no, Bret. The question I posed is based on the last link! You know, the one about the contaminated drinking water, serving expired food and using an illegal amount of gunpowder in the fireworks.

How is it that despite this disgraceful demonstration of complete disregard for the consumer, combined with a slew of bad press, they still brought in those numbers?

If you're right and one cloned attraction has that much ability then I'm greatly impressed and even more optimistic about E:E and all the other announcements coming to the World. Aren't you?

Great post by the way.

 

[bretsyboo]

How is it that despite this disgraceful demonstration of complete disregard for the consumer, combined with a slew of bad press, they still brought in those numbers?

Because of all of the reasons I previously stated...what are you driving at? Their numbers haven't been great, they've lost money for 3 years until this year. You have the numbers of what they've drawn, so what's your point? That the article over exaggerates? That they have something extra special that despite bad publicity they are still able to get respectably clobbered by Disney? What is the point that you are trying to make?

If you're right and one cloned attraction has that much ability then I'm greatly impressed and even more optimistic about E:E and all the other announcements coming to the World. Aren't you?

Well heck sure!!! Unless you do some actual analysis.

All 3 parksare like Disneyland, they are local parks, they draw from a population that loves their entertainment and in very condensed areas. Like Disneyland when we saw 3 and 4 hour lines when Indy opened the locals will come out to see a new and very good attraction if the park itself has a good preputation. EG, someone won't pay 50 dollars to try one new ride if they already know/think the rest of their day will be useless.

USJ is your standard universal park which means it is a good solid park with enough to sustain your average guest through the day. Throw in possibly the most popular attraction in the world at the time when the sequal to the stunningly popular movie is made, and it is no wonder to me that the following months showed a 50% growth in attendance.

Put a scaled down version of Tower in DCA and the same won't be said. The ride itself didn't have a lot of buzz because it was well known to be a cheapened version, and the park itself is an atrocity. Therefore numbers went up, but not dramatically up, and not for a sustained period of time. Disney's management is baffled. Tokyo's tower should be the best so far, and I'd expect to see similar numbers.

As far as Walt Disney World I fully expect Expedition Everest to be an extremely well done ride. When Joe Rohde puts his efforts into something, what comes out is often very impressive. However there are huge differences that will keep it from parallelling anything close to what is seen in Japan. One, it's a 2 minute ride. Or, less than half of the length of Spiderman. Two, it's not a new experience, it's a rollercoaster, and going down a hill backwards may be new for Disney, but anyone with a local amusemant park can find that sensation wherever they go, whereas Spiderman is a completely new type of experience. 3, while masterful DAK has quickly gained a reputation for being a half day park and has never really done anything to combat that. Still, over a half decade later, there isn't nearly enough in the park. Adding Aisa was a must, but it had a ride, a walk through, and a show. Dinorama doesn't help anyone, and that's what DAK has done to try and get people back in to their park. E:E may be phenominal, but if they are going to depend on it to singlehandedly pull up DAK's numbers then they better think again.

Like Mission Space you don't go to WDW for a ride, you go to it for the whole. Epcot has needed majot updating and care and has all but been ignored over the years. Test track didn't help that, M:S didn't help that, Soarin' won't help it much either. At Animal Kingdom nearly everything they have is a good. But the whole is dramatically less than the sum of the parts. There isn't enough to do there, and a 2 minute roller coaster isn't going to change that. You want to change that then put in restaurants, change the hours, have a park show other than the constantly repeating parade. Add a stinking land in addition to doing something with Camp Minnie Mickey. Make Africa more than just the Safari or it will continue to die after mid morning, and for Gods sake have Planet Watch be worth visiting. A train ride with no sights that you have to wait all day for with a petting zoo and a building where you listen to sounds in booths isn't going to do it for anyone. Especially when you have to ride the train back. It's right next tp Aisa, build a path between it and E:E and put the Camp Minnie Mickey shows back there, and give us some reason to cross that camp MM bridge! Australia, North America, it doesn't matter. The park has some top of the line elements to it, but E:E is nothing more than an amature tunicuit for what problems the park suffers from.

Walt once said that if you lose the guests it'll cost 10 times as much to get them back. That's where DCA and DAK are right now. It can't be fixed with a big e ticket.

Tell that to Jim Hill - it's his claim, not mine. I assume he utilized some reliable basis before formulating that opinion.

It's exactly your claim. You didn't come in here saying according to Jim Hill, you came here stating a fact. Your source was just Jim Hill. If you do your research I can assure you you will find there is no more quoted sourse for attendance than ABM, and I can give a pretty ogod guess as to what Jim did. He ignored the numbers per month and decided to make his claim without using or giving all of the facts. If that's not true then you must be assuming that Jim has sourses high enough within both companies that he actually knows the 4 million guest difference between the parks when taken over the full course of a year is actually untrue, and for whatever reason, Universal Studios has decided to keep this little nugget quiet. Silly.

I'd suggest before you make any claims like that you turn off the CBS and do the research yourself. And by god at least own up to it and don't play the messager role.

Not at all. I'm just wondering how they count their guests. If I'm there in one day and visit both parks, am I counted once or twice?

Your question is a matter of time, EG if I'm in a park for 10 minutes do I count? Lots of people spend half days in a park, so surely they should be counted in any park they visit, if they spend half a day in one, and half a day in the other. But you are wondering about cheap guests. Ones who might come for fireworks or a show at the end of the night...and that's easy to answer...
You've got to get a ticket. The only way you aren't going to get a ticket for both parks is if you get some sort of multi day pass, and in that case you are certainly spending the money with the intention of going to both parks. Will there be errors? Sure, will there be errors in the millions like it would take? Well some people don't think we landed on the moon...

 

[crusader]

I'd suggest before you make any claims like that you turn off the CBS and do the research yourself. And by god at least own up to it and don't play the messager role.

Up until this point I was willing to discuss this.

 

[bretsyboo]

Come now Crusader, you read this...

The international battle actually began in March 2001, when Universal Studios opened the company's first overseas theme park in Osaka, Japan. The park -- featuring exact duplicates of many of the more popular attractions at Universal Studios Florida -- is a huge hit with Japanese tourists. Even though that nation is still in the depths of a decade-long depression, Universal Studios Japan still racked up 11 million visitors in its first year. That's the fastest any theme park has ever reached that attendance milestone.

Six months later, Disney upped its own ante in Asia by opening Tokyo Disney Seas, a $2 billion addition to the Tokyo Disneyland resort. Even though Tokyo Disney Seas was entirely financed by the Japanese consortium that owns it, and not by Disney, the Mouse still benefits from the name recognition generated by the high-tech park. The move significantly helped expand the Disney brand in the Asian marketplace.

Nevertheless, Universal Studios Japan still came out on top, attendance-wise, that is.

And you believed it, and that's fine. Hill isn't CNN, or FOX News, I'm not sure he has any real duty to report the straight and hard facts, but you'd still like to be able to trust people and I don't blame anyone that did. What Hill wrote that pertains to this discussion is that Universal Japan beat Tokyo Disney Seas in their first year. Anyone who came away from the article thinking that was fact can be completely justified in doing so, including you. However you didn't repeat this, no...you said...

It's hailed as being a success because of its innovative design - which fails to explain how Universal’s park has beaten their attendance levels over the years (I don’t know about this year) and continues to be a great success.

And you got that from Hill apparently...but you didn't. You read that universal beat Japan in 2001, and apparently invented that they continue to do well, though you admit you didn't know about this year...as though you knew a thing about 2002 or 2003. You had something to base 2001, but you didn't do any sort of research to actually see if your assumption was correct. Worse still you presented as fact and a point of debate. We know universal beats disney, so let's find out why.

Then when it turns out to be not true you brush off any responsibility...

Tell that to Jim Hill - it's his claim, not mine. I assume he utilized some reliable basis before formulating that opinion.

Well it's Hills claim about 2001, but your post went far and beyond 2001, and no where did it say "according to hill..." "from what I've read..." "I'm assuming that..." No, you presented it as fact. Which makes it your claim and your words. If people came on here and read it they couldn't say according to Jim Hill because you weren't passing on information, instead they would have to say according to Crusader. And what scares me about this is that if you have no responsibility, then you have nothing to learn from. Which means that you make more erroneous posts, presented as fact, and accept no responsibility for your words.

And I think we'd agree we don't want to mislead anyone here.

In this same thread I mistyped something about the Tokyo DisneySea Expansion when I should have said the entire tokyo disney resort expansion. This was pointed out to me and I started off my next post admitting I made a mistake...because my words are my responsibility and anytime you take responsibility for something you learn to be more careful in the future.

As far as this goes I don't read the Dis much, I think you probably know that. But it just so happens we were lucky I happened to read this thread and also just happened to know there were several errors.

It would be a darn shame to have people think Japan was blowing half their budget making a 600 million dollar hotel, or that Disney was being beaten by Universal in Japan don't you think? How can we discuss anything if it's not true?

If I hadn't caught those errors, then anyone who read it like you would have accepted it as fact, because they trust what you say like you trust what they say. I wonder what other things are floating around peoples heads that weren't caught, and I wonder what is in my own that I read, that turned out to be false, that I may have spread around. For years I thought those were chess pieces on top of the Haunted Mansion.

The true facts are important in any discussion, and unfortunatly this hasn't been much of one. Most of the premises were based on false statements, and most of the posts have been to trying to get to the facts and not actually what the facts mean-and that's too bad.

So we want the truth, and not only did you not provide it, you didn't take responsibility for it. We don't want any wrong ideas out there, so no, I don't think it's too much to ask that before you read something about 2001, and extend it to 3 years, you do a little research first. Or at the very least don't present it as written in stone, and if you do, be prepared to accept that it is yours. It's what I expect from anyone that I learn from...and that's what so many of these threads are.

I'm not looking for a fight Crusader, I don't think I've fought with you ever before but am i irked when you present facts with no basis and you question my facts with something to back them up? Yes. Am I irked at the general fact that things like these could be constantly slipping into the disney community and influencing their opinions? Yes. And I would think you would be to, and when one is the sourse of misinformation and wants to remain credible the only correct thing is to say yeah, I screwed up, and I'll try not to do it again.

 

[OnWithTheShow]

"And that my lord is how we know the world to be banana shaped."

 

[crusader]

Then when it turns out to be not true you brush off any responsibility...

I suggest you go back and reread my post - or let me assist you.

So yes, you're right. Disney is beating Universal in Japan. Regardless of whether these numbers are inflated or how they're tallied, the fact remains that with the exception of the year USJ opened its' doors, TDL and TDS have experienced much higher levels of attendance.

Not that you deserve any more than the above in reply, but I will say this -

The attendance figures you published are from a source which uses statistical assumptions to compile this information. Nobody stands at the turnstiles day after day counting each and every guest at TDL and TDS to make sure there are no duplicates between the parks, or that the data is otherwise uncompromised. That's why they carefully place the disclaimer ESTIMATES next to each and every figure not published independently by the source - namely Disney in this case.

These two parks do not sell a single or two day multi-park ticket which raised a big question in my mind as to the validity of how a guest was being recorded.

My skepticism is valid. I have yet to read anything from you which assists in bringing out the truth.

That said, it would be helpful if you refrained from throwing bouquets at yourself.

 

[bretsyboo]

I suggest you go back and reread my post - or let me assist you.

Here's the thing you are still missing Crusader...it's not me. It's not about me. And you're little "you're right" has been laced with sketicism since the beginning. Whether I'm right or not isn't the issue. You can say I'm right, but based on what you've said I can only assume you mean that Jim Hill was wrong...and not you. And while I firmly believe that Jim Hill was wrong, he never mentioned those other years you included. It's not I'm right.

It's you're wrong.
It's that you posted erroneous information with zero basis.
It's that making up 2002, and 2003 was plain wrong, misleading, and ultimately harmful.

It's that anyone who says that sort of thing SHOULD recan't it and admit they are wrong.

But we haven't seen that...STILL. If anyone is wrong, it's Jim Hill, cause it's his claim! Though it was ultimatly only 1/3 of your claim.

Bottom line is, why when you had only read on 2001, did you say over the years? You full well knew you had no information to back it up. You must have known you made it up in your head. Further more I'd think even you would have realized your Jim Hill article was from 2002. Before the last two numbers had even been released. and THIS is what you'd have us believe.


But I post numbers from the most credible source...and that's not good enough.

The attendance figures you published are from a source which uses statistical assumptions to compile this information. Nobody stands at the turnstiles day after day counting each and every guest at TDL and TDS to make sure there are no duplicates between the parks, or that the data is otherwise uncompromised. That's why they carefully place the disclaimer ESTIMATES next to each and every figure not published independently by the source - namely Disney in this case.

What exactly is your source based upon? What numbers do you have? What better indication of how a park's attendance is doing that that magazine?

Do you see the hypocricy? You can, based on nothing, start us off on a conversation on the "true" premise that Universal has been, at least until this year winning.

Based on nothing!

Then when numbers from the most credible source disputes you...You don't like them! You have problems with them! Praytell how Hill's 2002 article that only mentions 2001 suddenly become more credible and good enough for you to post...then data from all 3 years of the most quoted source?

These two parks do not sell a single or two day multi-park ticket which raised a big question in my mind as to the validity of how a guest was being recorded.

how? If anything a single day ticket would help to add some sort of explanation to your fears. If a guest can only buy a one day ticket to get into a park...then the vast majority of guests would be counted for the only park they entered that day. The only way someone could do as you say would be to have a big hopper ticket, and even that chance is lessened because you could at minimum assume a day in each park!

My skepticism is valid.

Your skepticism is hypocritical. You weren't skeptical of what facts you thought you knew, but then when other very credible facts are brought up...suddenly you are skepticle.

The question is...what will it take?

ABM is the best we have, the very best. The bible of theme park attendance. Dare I say...GASP! More credible than Jim Hill. But you aregue it. Can I prove what the exact numbers are? No. And so you'll grasp on to that as the basis of your arguement though unlike mine, yours has absolutly zero facts, sero evidence zero anything behind it.

I have yet to read anything from you which assists in bringing out the truth.

Unless you are completely discxounting ABM then you have. Because where you started you were way off, and this brought everyone dramatically closer to the truth. In fact, it brought us as close as we possibly can get so far as we know. But that's not good enough for you, even though the deep wilderness you were once in was good enough for you. It doesn't make sense.

And exactly please tell what truths you have brought out to bring us closer? If anything you started off this very subject by bringing us farther from the truth.

Now Crusader, this is useless because I was told from the very beginning not to bother. I was told that I could come down with absolutle undeniable information and that it wouldn't convince you-and that apparently is true. I don't know what you are trying to say. I don't understand your motives for trying to convince people that the absolutle successes of TDLR both in terms of the park and it's attendance aren't actually true, but you are arguing the same points on no evidence that you were when this was started. Why isn't TDLR doing good? But it is, here are the numbers. But those numbers may be wrong, you can't prove they are absolute, so I ask again, why is TDLR not doing well?

It's silly.

I fear if this topic goes on any farther you'll be yelling that gravity is merely a theory and not a law.

So I'll go back over to www.jjewell.com where I've never had a conversation quite like this and you won't have to worry about me anymore. I'm not saying I won't check this thread, I'm not even saying I won't respond if there is something to respond to, but I'm not going to go to fight any more lone stubbornness...

But I'll say again, before just inventing facts, or stretching something you've read far beyond it's lines...I'd suggest you do a little research. Bad information helps no one.

 

[crusader]

Bret -

This is a discussion board. We're here to assist one another.

why you have chosen to right a thesis on the lack of merit of my use of the phrase "over the years" is a complete waste.

You could have gotten your point across in one word: GOTCHA

I'm sure you have alot of great information to share here. But this has gone too far.

 

[Peter Pirate]

Why did this have to turn into another (in your face) debate? It was fairly informative until mole hills were elevated to mountains.

My respects to your effort crusader.

 

[Sarangel]

Since this has devolved into a badly spelled "yes it is" "no it isn't" discussion, I'm closing this thread.

Sarangel