Discussion in 'The DIS Unplugged Podcast' started by EastYorkDisneyFan, Nov 14, 2012.
The question says it all
Has anyone ever looked at a pole on the mobile version of the site? It makes it into a pie chart undyed of a bar graph
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Of course it won't. I can easily walk on the other side of the street.
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I'm looking forward to having some "good" coffe at WDW. They'll fit in just fine with their period costumes and will still carry baked goods. I think it's a fantastic idea.
Pete: I really have to take issue with your strident view expressed in the podcast. Not because you aren't entitled to your opinion. But because your opinion appears to be based on an absolute that simply does or will not exist. There is a 60+ page thread on the Theme Parks Board, much of it involving people chasing each other around. I don't want to repeat that here, and instead will simply offer up this essay on logic and evaluative thinking.
The Starbucks situation can unfold in many different ways. But first, let's stake out the end posts that mark the range of possibilities. On the one side, we have the possibility that the Main Street Bakery ("MSB") will not change in any way, shape or form. I'm talking about not a single molecule out of place. The only difference would be that the liquid poured into customers' cups would be Starbucks coffee. On the other side of the equation we have the possibility that Disney brings in a wrecking ball and bulldozer and erects a carbon copy of any ol' Starbucks found in any major city in America. A disgusting green building with stark, non-descript wooden chairs and tables, pretentious CDs sold by the register and hipster nose-pierced barristas pulling the shots.
If we are being honest here, you should have absolutely no quarrel with the first scenario, unless, of course, you simply do not like the liquid poured into your cup. But as nothing else has changed, it would be irrational to view this "change" as Armegeddon. In fact, unless someone told you that the coffee had changed, you'd never even know that there had been any change at all.
Contrast that with the second scenario, which I think it is fair to assume, would not sit well with 95% of all Disney fans and would and should bring about protests, petitions and people chaining themselves to the doors of the MSB.
Now, in reality, I think it is fair to say that what will actually unfold will be something in between. So let's analyze that. Logic dictates that if we start at the first guide post and work our way toward the second, small, incremental changes could be added to the first scenario that would be acceptable to you, and which would still find you in the "this change isn't so bad, and I accept it" camp. For example, the turn of the century motif is retained; the barristas look like clean cut workers in a Marceline soda shop; the furniture is new, but still well within the spectrum of the Disney Main Street Theme; and perhaps new wall paper or paint is applied to the walls. But nothing whatsoever that looks like a Starbucks or evokes the atmosphere of a typical urban coffee shop. Again, small, incremental changes, none of which move you over to the "I hate it" camp. From there, we can imagine still more changes, bringing the MSB closer and closer to the wrecking ball/urban coffee shop scenario. At some point, the changes will cross the proverbial line, pushing you into the "They've gone too far, and this is unacceptable" camp. And that is fine. Everyone is going to have their own opinion as to where that line is, and no one else could credibly debate the validity of that person's opinion. It is wrong, however, to assume at this stage, that the line will be crossed.
The same would hold true if we started at the second guide post and slowly made our way over to the first. Imagine a "pure" Starbucks, and then imagine small incremental changes that would move it into the realm of a turn of the century parlor. Small changes in this regard would not suffice, but if enough of them were compounded, eventually you would get to the point where you would have to concede that what they have done passes muster with you, and you would find the changeover acceptable. Again, opinions will differ in where this line resides.
But here is where I take issue with your rant. You jump off with your argument assuming that the scenario that will unfold is the second one, without a shred of proof of that fact. From the Disney blog press release, we know that the "all in" Starbucks isn't coming to WDW. The locale will remain the MSB, the turn of the century decor and feel will be retained, and much of the food offerings will continue to be sold. Rather than assume that this announcemnet was in response to negative reactions on the internet, I firmly believe (albeit, without proof), that this was always the intent, but that Disney had to clarify the situation because people were pulling their hair out thinking that Disney had opted to allow an urban Starbucks to invade Main Street. I do not believe that was ever the case.
No matter. We have the current information from Disney that should lead us to conclude that the MSB will unfold somewhere along the spectrum falling between "no change at all" and "urban Starbucks". And I think that from the information provided, it will fall far closer in range to the "no change at all". We cannot get up in arms about a fresh coat of paint, some new floor tiles and better furniture, as long as that furniture is not the junk at a typical Starbucks. But there is no reason to take up torches and pitchforks and pound the internet with petitions to stop this from happening based on the unsupported assumption that Starbucks is moving into Main Street lock, stock and barrel.
We have to give Disney more credit than that. Why? Well, for starters, when the MSB opnened, (and I believe the word you used in the podcast was "legacy"), it was a Sara Lee outlet. Somehow, in 1971, Main Street was able to coexist with a corporately sponsored bakery with big signage in full view. But if your retort is: "yes, but the theming was pure Disney", then I would say that I agree. So if Starbucks cuts its ribbon with full Disney theming, shouldn't we give it the same benefit of the doubt that we gave Sara Lee? Or Carnation? Or Nestle? Or Coke? Or Edy's? Or your beloved Dole? It would be beyond hypocritical to think that Starbucks has no place on Main Street when all the corporations named above are or have been there, and we can add Gulf Oil, GAF and Kodak to that list. So corporate sponsorship and signage cannot be the issue. It has to be the theming. So let's let this unfold and see what the theming will be before we conclude that Starbucks has no place on Main Street. I am willing to bet that when they cut the ribbon, you will look at it and say: "You know what? They did a pretty good job here. This isn't bad at all." Any other result would be very, very surprising to me. With all that said, I think you came down far too heavy against this change, and we all owe it to the imagineers to come up with something classy before we start chaining ourselves to the doors.
Thanks for listening.
I think you missed point.
When I first heard that Starbucks was coming to WDW I was really happy. I do like Starbucks drinks (not the coffee, but Chai Tea, Latte's, etc). When they announced that it was coming to the Main Street Bakery I thought that was a great place to put it because it only makes sense to have better coffee with the pastries that the bakery sells. However, after reading more about it online I get the feeling it is much more than just putting Starbucks coffee in the Bakery. That the Bakery itself will close and turn into a Starbucks. This is something that I don't agree with because Starbucks as we know it would NOT fit in well with the turn of the century small town theme of Main Street. I think the coffee should be served at all locations, but if you want to bring an actual Starbucks to the park, I agree with the podcast team that it should be done somewhere else (the Noodle Station was a great suggestion). I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens. Personally, I think the Bakery DOES need to be updated. That line is horrendous most of the time and there isn't enough seating. Turning the entire thing into a Starbucks is not what I had in mind though...
And Disney agrees with you. Here is a quote from the official source. There is simply no way that one can reasonably read the following statement and conclude that what will be built on Main Street will be a Starbucks, as we have come to understand that term.
"Both locations will be designed to fit the theme of their surroundings. At Magic Kingdom Park, for example, cast members will wear a costume consistent with the early 20th century look and feel of Main Street, U.S.A."
I will be sad, for sure, especially if they don't have the cherry danish which is one of the only bribes I can use to get my DH to Orlando. I try not to drink too much coffee or anything related to the water in Florida anyway, and this will only provide further incentive.
Grammar police: It's affect, not effect.
JimmyV, I'd like to congratulate you on a well-reasoned, thoughtful, and intelligent response to Pete's rant (which I have not yet heard). You've very logically described the possible (but extreme) scenarios of incorporating Starbucks into the MSB, and have not let sentimentality and emotion cloud your reasoning. Bravo.
May I suggest that that is exactly where you went wrong...dismissing sentimentality and emotion? Here's my reasoning.
People who go to Disney parks do not, I would assume, experience them strictly intellectually or logically. They experience them emotionally. They go to laugh, to cry, to scream, to wonder. They go to make memories with friends and family. They take photos of experiences, and they treasure those photos and memories forever. They become emotionally involved.
Therefore, they react emotionally when they hear news of change. They think "How badly could this change go?" Then they think updates of Journey Into Imagination, or Spaceship Earth, or Mission to Mars, and they realize that it could go horribly, horribly wrong. Am I, or Pete, wrong? Could it go horribly wrong? We all know the answer.
oops my bad I always get those two mixed up
I'm going against the grain here, but I'm really excited about it. I love Starbucks and I don't like the current coffee at WDW so for me it's a win win situation. My favorite place on earth with my favorite beverage. To me the way I read it is that I will still get my MSB favorites and sure maybe some Starbucks Pastries too and some of the other favorites will be moving, but I think it's a positive thing.
actually judging by the current pole results your not going to far against the grain.
Will this change make me not visit MK? Of course not. But will I visit the Starbucks? Nope. And I once religiously visited the bakery.
From I read, all Starbucks products were being brought in. Food and all. I can get that crap any time. Maybe items will be available in the park, but it's not the same. And even if the place is themed like they say I bet there will be Starbucks logos all over the place. And I don't like that.
I agree with Pete. There's a big difference between a building being sponsored by a company and becoming a location of that company. Since I'm pretty sure we can't stop Starbucks from coming, I'll just speak with my wallet and not visit the location.
I find it funny that official Disney press releases keep coming out "tempering" the original Starbucks announcement. Toning it down or explaining the Starbucks decision with more details.
Maybe the "preserve Main Street" crowd is making a difference?
Maybe they realize that they should have done a better job in their original press release to describe their plans. Maybe they also should have known more about their fan base.
I don't think that is it. A subset of Disney fans tend to get all melodramatic and whiny about change and then completely over react before they even see what is done by the company. The original press release was aimed at normal people who would read it and see that Starbucks is going to have a presence in a bakery on Main Street. They wouldn't jump to conclusions about what that presence would be and assume it meant that the entire bakery would be replaced by a standard Starbucks location.
Instead, this subset of fans jumped to the worst possible conclusion despite not only having no evidence to support it but having evidence to the contrary (ie: the locations in other parks). So Disney had to justifiably roll their eyes, do a double facepalm, and then rewrite a press release to ensure these folks that the sky was not falling and Walt will not cause an earthquake by rolling around in his grave for the millionth time.
Maybe it will be a disaster, maybe it will be a well themed Disney bakery, staffed by CMs, that happens to sell some Starbucks coffee and some other baked goods. I'll wait until it is done and opened before I wail and gnash my teeth.
You probably mean melodramatic. /grammar.
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