What do you mean I can't add more days?!

[ValpoCory]

I emailed Disneyland a few days ago about this topic and here is the response I got along with my message:

8/08/2012


Dear Elizabeth,

Thank you for your e-mail to the DISNEYLAND® Resort.

Guest who would like to add extra days on their existing Mulit Day
Hopper ticket, may do so at any one of our Ticket Booths on the day of
their visit.

So that we may better assist you, please contact DISNEYLAND® Resort
Ticketing & Reservations at (714) 781-4400. Ticketing & Reservations is
open daily Monday – Friday, 7 a.m. – 8 p.m., and Saturday & Sunday, from
8 a.m. – 6 p.m.(Pacific Standard Time).

Again, thank you for taking the time to write. We hope you will have the
opportunity to visit the DISNEYLAND® Resort soon and trust your visit
will be pleasant in all regards.

Sincerely,

Linda Trump
DISNEYLAND® Resort
Guest Experience Services


Please note all information is subject to change without notice and
should be confirmed just prior to your visit.

Received date: 8/4/12




Original Message Follows:
------------------------
First Day of Visit: 09/25/2012
Length Of Stay: 6

Our family is planning a 6 day Disneyland vacation. I noticed that you
now no longer offer 6- day park hoppers on you website. Is it possible
to add a day to 5 day park while at the park?

What once looked promising, just 4 days later ...

I've sent two emails regarding this topic. Here are the responses:

8/16/2012

#1

Thank you for your e-mail to the DISNEYLAND® Resort.

Unfortunately, we no longer offer admission tickets beyond a 5-Day
admission ticket. We apologize for any disappointment this may cause you
and your family.

Again, thank you for taking the time to write. We hope you will have the
opportunity to visit the DISNEYLAND® Resort soon and trust your visit
will be pleasant in all regards.

Sincerely,

Linda Trump
DISNEYLAND® Resort
Guest Experience Services


Please note all information is subject to change without notice and
should be confirmed just prior to your visit.

Received date: 8/12/12

#2

-----Original Message-----

8/16/2012


Thank you for your e-mail to the DISNEYLAND® Resort.

Unfortunately, we no longer offer admission tickets beyond a 5-Day
admission ticket. We apologize for any disappointment this may cause you
and your family.

...


Sincerely,
Linda Trump

How quickly things change.

 

[Brian Noble]

So do you really think that the scalping of tickets was the reason.

No. If that were the reason, there is a ready-made solution, employed at WDW and other theme parks around the world: tie tickets to biometric markers. But, to be fair, I don't think I've ever heard a *Disney* spokesperson offer scalping as the reason. Indeed, I don't think I've heard *any* reason from a Disney spokesperson. This isn't the sort of thing they tell regular Guests. You might sometimes see it discussed in an investor presentation, but even then, not very often.

That said, it doesn't take much reading between the lines to see what is going on here. DLR is looking very hard at gate integrity by ratcheting up the AP price significantly and by raising the "floor" on per-day admission costs for day-ticket guests. Why they are doing this is also not much of a surprise: they spent a big chunk of change over the past few years, and they want a return on that investment. This is the same thing we saw at Universal Orlando, which axed the 7-day/$99 ticket right before the Potterverse opened.

 

[Brian Noble]

I should probably explain what I mean by "gate integrity".

There are two important numbers in measuring the economics of a theme park: daily attendance, and per-capita spending. The latter is the amount of money spent by each person in the park, on average, in a day, including admission revenue, food, merchandise, and games. The single biggest component of that is admission revenue. If you allow your per-day admission costs to go too low, you lose "gate integrity", and have to make it up by in-park food/merch/etc. sales. This used to be Six Flags primary strategy: "give away the gate", but make it back in over-inflated in park pricing.

Disney has historically been pretty good at maintaining gate integrity. They almost never discount a single day ticket. But, the relatively cheap annual passes plus the long-duration day-by-day tickets were a hole in that strategy. The increase in pass prices and the limit on a day-by-day ticket's length helps plug that hole. No day-by-day guest will ever get in for less than $51 or so per day ever again. A Deluxe APer would have to visit more than nine days in a year to hit that same per-day price---and many will, but never at the most crowded times of year because of blockouts. A Premium APer would have to visit more than 12 days in a year. The two SoCal APs will continue to be used as backstops during low-crowd times, but even those now only make sense if you are going to visit twice a year, at least.

Edited to add: there is a concern that, if you raise the gate too high, your attendance will fall too far and you'll end up losing revenue overall. With the opening of Cars Land, I don't think that will be a problem for DLR. It certainly wasn't for Universal when the Potterverse opened. Their attendance was up something like 15% in the first full year of Potter operation, even at the higher gate price point.

 

[interstate70s]

It all just seems random. I think that perhaps "Linda Trump " is more than one cast member. I wonder if there is something else we 're missing here like are the people who are able to upgrade staying onsite or not from SoCal? Or perhaps how its phrased?

Or maybe it is random cast members that can circumvent the system. This seems odd to me though, Ive never had a job that allowed me to basically offer a $100 plus item at a 95% discount just because someone asked?

 

[snvanvl]

The problem is they are pricing people out of spending extra days in the park after their 5 day tickets are done. For our family to buy 7 more one day hoppers because we would like to spend one more day in Disney it will cost us $857. I can go to Knotts, Six Flags and Seaworld for a total of $855 for all three of them. The Disney prices are outrageous for those of us that would like to spend 6 or 7 days in the park.

 

[ValpoCory]

I should probably explain what I mean by "gate integrity".

There are two important numbers in measuring the economics of a theme park: daily attendance, and per-capita spending. The latter is the amount of money spent by each person in the park, on average, in a day, including admission revenue, food, merchandise, and games. The single biggest component of that is admission revenue. If you allow your per-day admission costs to go too low, you lose "gate integrity", and have to make it up by in-park food/merch/etc. sales. This used to be Six Flags primary strategy: "give away the gate", but make it back in over-inflated in park pricing.

Disney has historically been pretty good at maintaining gate integrity. They almost never discount a single day ticket. But, the relatively cheap annual passes plus the long-duration day-by-day tickets were a hole in that strategy. The increase in pass prices and the limit on a day-by-day ticket's length helps plug that hole. No day-by-day guest will ever get in for less than $51 or so per day ever again. A Deluxe APer would have to visit more than nine days in a year to hit that same per-day price---and many will, but never at the most crowded times of year because of blockouts. A Premium APer would have to visit more than 12 days in a year. The two SoCal APs will continue to be used as backstops during low-crowd times, but even those now only make sense if you are going to visit twice a year, at least.

Edited to add: there is a concern that, if you raise the gate too high, your attendance will fall too far and you'll end up losing revenue overall. With the opening of Cars Land, I don't think that will be a problem for DLR. It certainly wasn't for Universal when the Potterverse opened. Their attendance was up something like 15% in the first full year of Potter operation, even at the higher gate price point.

But that doesn't explain why Disneyland is letting 5 day guests in at ~$51 per day, but 6 day guests have to pay ~$57 per day. If $51 is the key point, they need to price their 6 day pass accordingly.

Any way to look at it, charging more for Day 6 than you charge for Day 5 is ridiculous. They don't do that at WDW. It's just at DLR.

 

[TigerlilyAJ]

Disney has historically been pretty good at maintaining gate integrity. They almost never discount a single day ticket. But, the relatively cheap annual passes plus the long-duration day-by-day tickets were a hole in that strategy. The increase in pass prices and the limit on a day-by-day ticket's length helps plug that hole. No day-by-day guest will ever get in for less than $51 or so per day ever again.

But how would gate integrity be threatened by offering, say, a 7-day PH for $350? The price is still $50/day, and would still force scalpers to demand a price not too far from that of a single-day if they want to make a profit on, say, selling a 7-say PH with six days already used up. And it would let people from afar enjoy a full week at the park, but for a more reasonable price than the $469 AP, which is $67/day for those customers.
As someone faced with such a decision, I know that if I go the AP route, such a high gate price will mean both that I go more than 7 days during our two-week vacation, to feel like I am getting my money's worth, and the same time, it will be a poorer time after shelling out $1876 for the APs, so we will be sure to eat less in the parks, more outside, to save money. Souvenirs will also be curtailed.

 

[ValpoCory]

So do you really think that the scalping of tickets was the reason.

No. If that were the reason, there is a ready-made solution, employed at WDW and other theme parks around the world: tie tickets to biometric markers. But, to be fair, I don't think I've ever heard a *Disney* spokesperson offer scalping as the reason. Indeed, I don't think I've heard *any* reason from a Disney spokesperson. This isn't the sort of thing they tell regular Guests. You might sometimes see it discussed in an investor presentation, but even then, not very often.

I disagree. I really think fraud is the core of the issue. One one hand you have the obviously fraudulent scalpers. But on the other hand you have SoCal parents with young kids who were partnering up with a group of families and buying 8 day park hoppers to pass around to each other, with each family paying for the days they used and a far discounted rate.

Why does DLR not implement the biometric scans that WDW uses? Simple ... unlike WDW, most of their guests are 1-day guests without multi-day passes. Implementing biometric scans for all the tickets would be an unnecessary nuisance to most DLR guests.

 

[Brian Noble]

The problem is they are pricing people out of spending extra days in the park after their 5 day tickets are done.

I suspect that, from Disney's perspective, that is not the problem. That is the point. It's not as though the Sharp Pencil Boys don't know the consequences: people will either pay up for more days, or they will go elsewhere. Disney apparently believes that they have enough demand that the parks will still see sufficient attendance at these price points. Time will tell, but based on the early crowd swings to DCA now that Cars Land is open, plus observing what Universal managed to do with Potter, I think Disney might be right.

But that doesn't explain why Disneyland is letting 5 day guests in at ~$51 per day, but 6 day guests have to pay ~$57 per day. If $51 is the key point, they need to price their 6 day pass accordingly.

But how would gate integrity be threatened by offering, say, a 7-day PH for $350?

Well, for starters, assuming these last few updates from Guest Services are really true, there is no such thing as a six or seven day pass anymore. There is a five day pass. If you want more entries during the same trip, you can either buy another "new" ticket, or upgrade to an appropriate Annual Pass. This happens on the East Coast, too, though you don't hear about it as often. But, there are some people who want to see the four main parks more than 10 days in a single trip, and they have the same choice: upgrade to an AP, or buy another "new" ticket.

But, putting that aside, Disney could offer longer passes that better maintain gate integrity. Such passes would look a lot more like the old Parkhopper/Parkhopper Plus tickets that were in play at WDW before the switched to the MYW scheme. In the PH/PHP scheme, the per-day prices for any length ticket were much closer to one another, no matter how many days you bought. So, it left it up to the guest to decide how often they wanted to come, and it cost more or less the same per day no matter what.

Why don't they do that instead? I could come up with some theories, but they are only theories. Indeed, unless someone posting here secretly works for TDA, that's all we've got. I suspect that the two coasts price their tickets such that the natural visit length (the number of days the average family thinks they need) is pretty close to full price, and inexpensive extra days are an incentive to get people to use the rest of a "typical" vacation to the area almost exclusively at Disney.

So, the question is why is DLR's maximum shorter than WDW's? Partly, the extra gates at WDW provide a (false) impression that you need twice as much time there; you don't because the two Anaheim parks just have more attractions in total. But, it would not surprise me to hear that "typical" Southern California vacations are shorter than "typical" Central Florida vacations, because so many more people live closer to Anahem than to Orlando. In other words, the average Disneyland visitor isn't coming from as far away as the average WDW visitor, and so they don't have to stay as long to make the visit worthwhile.

Naturally, we DISers---hardcore Disney fans all---are more likely to be coming from farther away and so want to visit longer than "the average guest". But, we are also probably not at all representative of the average guest.

I know that if I go the AP route, such a high gate price will mean both that I go more than 7 days during our two-week vacation, to feel like I am getting my money's worth, and the same time, it will be a poorer time after shelling out $1876 for the APs, so we will be sure to eat less in the parks, more outside, to save money. Souvenirs will also be curtailed.

But, there are two things to notice here. First, in some sense, it doesn't really matter to Disney how they get your money---whether through higher admission or more post-admission in-park spending---because they all flow to that all-important per-capita spending number that gets reported in the financial disclosures. On the other hand, Disney would rather get it through the gate than post-admission spending, because if you go at all the gate is guaranteed. Getting inside is the one thing a Disney guest can't decided to skip to save money. You eat outside the berm. You can buy souvenirs outside the berm. But, you can't experience the parks outside the berm.

 

[Brian Noble]

Why does DLR not implement the biometric scans that WDW uses? Simple ... unlike WDW, most of their guests are 1-day guests without multi-day passes. Implementing biometric scans for all the tickets would be an unnecessary nuisance to most DLR guests.

There is a simple solution to this: don't require 1-day ticket holders to use the scanners. They still probably would---it avoids having to do handstamps and saves on labor---but if that's the problem it can easily be avoided. After all, kids 9 and under don't use the scanners at WDW now...

Edited to add: now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure this is exactly what the Sea World/Busch parks do. One-day ticket holders don't use the biometrics system, but do have to get handstamps when they leave. Multi-day/annual pass holders *do* use the biometrics system.

 

[mom2aidanNpiper]

I disagree. I really think fraud is the core of the issue. One one hand you have the obviously fraudulent scalpers. But on the other hand you have SoCal parents with young kids who were partnering up with a group of families and buying 8 day park hoppers to pass around to each other, with each family paying for the days they used and a far discounted rate.

Why does DLR not implement the biometric scans that WDW uses? Simple ... unlike WDW, most of their guests are 1-day guests without multi-day passes. Implementing biometric scans for all the tickets would be an unnecessary nuisance to most DLR guests.

I agree with the above. And wish that if you could prove somehow you were staying there (how hard would it be to show proof of a local hotel reservation, onsite reservation, etc?) I don't know, I guess people trying to work the system and scalp tix would find a way regardless.

Either way I am bummed! We are going during hot weather (8 days starting Sep 1) but shorter park hrs (they close at 8 during the weekdays and one day even at 5 pm). It would be nice to come and go as we want and not feel like we have to go open to close the 5 days of our tix.

 

[ValpoCory]

There is a simple solution to this: don't require 1-day ticket holders to use the scanners. They still probably would---it avoids having to do handstamps and saves on labor---but if that's the problem it can easily be avoided. After all, kids 9 and under don't use the scanners at WDW now...

That's a pretty good idea. Have specially marked entrances for multi-day passes, complete with the biometric scans. Anybody can use those entrances and have a biometric assigned to the tickets, but only single day ticket holders can use the single day entrance. You'd have to create a way for multi-day tickets to not work in the single day entrance.

 

[ValpoCory]

The problem is they are pricing people out of spending extra days in the park after their 5 day tickets are done.

I suspect that, from Disney's perspective, that is not the problem. That is the point. It's not as though the Sharp Pencil Boys don't know the consequences: people will either pay up for more days, or they will go elsewhere. Disney apparently believes that they have enough demand that the parks will still see sufficient attendance at these price points. Time will tell, but based on the early crowd swings to DCA now that Cars Land is open, plus observing what Universal managed to do with Potter, I think Disney might be right.

I just disagree. I don't think Disney wants less guests. I think they want to curtail fraud.

 

[Brian Noble]

That's a pretty good idea. Have specially marked entrances for multi-day passes, complete with the biometric scans. Anybody can use those entrances and have a biometric assigned to the tickets, but only single day ticket holders can use the single day entrance. You'd have to create a way for multi-day tickets to not work in the single day entrance.

You don't have to do this. Just program the turnstiles so that they don't require a scan from single-day ticket holders---just like the turnstiles at WDW don't require them of guests who are under 10. Single-day ticket holders are welcomed through immediately. Multi-day ticket holders have to use the scanners. As I added to my post above, I'm pretty sure this is what the Busch/Sea World parks do.

And, just to be clear, I'm not at all happy about the change---I'm giving my guess at why it happened, but I wish it hadn't. We have a week-long trip planned next February, and would have spent at least part of each day at DLR. Now, we will probably limit it to five days.

We're Cedar Fair Platinum Passholders (Cedar Point is our home park) and that includes parking and admission to Knott's. So, that's where we will go for the rest of the time. We'd've visited Knott's anyway, because we like traditional amusement parks as well. But the Knotts operating hours are usually shorter, so we would have returned to DLR for the evening. Now, we'll just do something else.

 

[Brian Noble]

I just disagree. I don't think Disney wants less guests. I think they want to curtail fraud.

I suppose it is possible. But, if they only wanted to curtail fraud, this is a baby-with-the-bathwater way of doing it, because eliminating relatively inexpensive six-day tickets certainly puts negative pressure on attendance. Just look at this thread---several folks would have spent a few extra days in the parks, but won't under this price scheme.

 

[ValpoCory]

You don't have to do this. Just program the turnstiles so that they don't require a scan from single-day ticket holders---just like the turnstiles at WDW don't require them of guests who are under 10. Single-day ticket holders are welcomed through immediately. Multi-day ticket holders have to use the scanners.

They need to do this and start selling longer passes.

 

[ValpoCory]

I suppose it is possible. But, if they only wanted to curtail fraud, this is a baby-with-the-bathwater way of doing it, because eliminating relatively inexpensive six-day tickets certainly puts negative pressure on attendance. Just look at this thread---several folks would have spent a few extra days in the parks, but won't under this price scheme.

I agree that this is a baby-with-the-bathwater way of doing it, which is why it is frustrating so many of us "babies".

 

[Brian Noble]

I agree that this is a baby-with-the-bathwater way of doing it, which is why it is frustrating so many of us "babies".

So, do you think TDA doesn't understand this? Personally, I think they must; this is micro-econ 101---if you raise prices, demand will fall.

Assuming they do understand it, why did they use this as the mechanism to curtail fraud when other superior mechanisms are readily available?

It just doesn't pass Occam's Razor to me---the simplest explanation is usually right. And, the simplest explanation is that they want to increase their per-capita numbers, and think this year they can without harming attendance thanks to the investment they've made at DCA.

As I wrote above, I'm also one of the "babies", and definitely wish this wasn't the way things were going to go. But, it sure looks like it is.

 

[TigerlilyAJ]

I suspect that, from Disney's perspective, that is not the problem. That is the point. It's not as though the Sharp Pencil Boys don't know the consequences: people will either pay up for more days, or they will go elsewhere. Disney apparently believes that they have enough demand that the parks will still see sufficient attendance at these price points. Time will tell, but based on the early crowd swings to DCA now that Cars Land is open, plus observing what Universal managed to do with Potter, I think Disney might be right.



Well, for starters, assuming these last few updates from Guest Services are really true, there is no such thing as a six or seven day pass anymore. There is a five day pass. If you want more entries during the same trip, you can either buy another "new" ticket, or upgrade to an appropriate Annual Pass. This happens on the East Coast, too, though you don't hear about it as often. But, there are some people who want to see the four main parks more than 10 days in a single trip, and they have the same choice: upgrade to an AP, or buy another "new" ticket.

But, putting that aside, Disney could offer longer passes that better maintain gate integrity. Such passes would look a lot more like the old Parkhopper/Parkhopper Plus tickets that were in play at WDW before the switched to the MYW scheme. In the PH/PHP scheme, the per-day prices for any length ticket were much closer to one another, no matter how many days you bought. So, it left it up to the guest to decide how often they wanted to come, and it cost more or less the same per day no matter what.

Why don't they do that instead? I could come up with some theories, but they are only theories. Indeed, unless someone posting here secretly works for TDA, that's all we've got. I suspect that the two coasts price their tickets such that the natural visit length (the number of days the average family thinks they need) is pretty close to full price, and inexpensive extra days are an incentive to get people to use the rest of a "typical" vacation to the area almost exclusively at Disney.

So, the question is why is DLR's maximum shorter than WDW's? Partly, the extra gates at WDW provide a (false) impression that you need twice as much time there; you don't because the two Anaheim parks just have more attractions in total. But, it would not surprise me to hear that "typical" Southern California vacations are shorter than "typical" Central Florida vacations, because so many more people live closer to Anahem than to Orlando. In other words, the average Disneyland visitor isn't coming from as far away as the average WDW visitor, and so they don't have to stay as long to make the visit worthwhile.

Naturally, we DISers---hardcore Disney fans all---are more likely to be coming from farther away and so want to visit longer than "the average guest". But, we are also probably not at all representative of the average guest.


But, there are two things to notice here. First, in some sense, it doesn't really matter to Disney how they get your money---whether through higher admission or more post-admission in-park spending---because they all flow to that all-important per-capita spending number that gets reported in the financial disclosures. On the other hand, Disney would rather get it through the gate than post-admission spending, because if you go at all the gate is guaranteed. Getting inside is the one thing a Disney guest can't decided to skip to save money. You eat outside the berm. You can buy souvenirs outside the berm. But, you can't experience the parks outside the berm.

I agree with the idea that the number crunchers are betting that CL is such a draw, with attendance up so much, that it still result in higher revenues even while losing some guests who would have come for another day or two (and bought food et al in those days).
But you misunderstood my hypotheticals. I am all too aware that there is not a 7-day PH or anything like that. I was putting out that as a suggestion to your $51/day floor-price theory. The floor price does not prevent from creating options for people who want to stay longer than five days. Considering the amazing array of ticket options and add-ons at WDW, DLR should be well aware that there are plenty of ideas beyond either selling sixth and seventh days for $5 or forcing people to spend hundreds of dollars per person to buy a new ticket or AP. There is plenty of price gap between $290 for a 5-day PH and $469 for an AP, or between $5 for a sixth day and $125 for a sixth day that comes from buying a single-day PH, that such people could fill.

Of course we here are not representative guests, but then they already know they have different types of guests, which is why there are special offers only for SoCal residents with particular ZIP codes of residence. As I've said before, there is no reason they can't reverse that idea and offer specials to people outside the "representative guest" zone. Even today, I believe Aussies can still get 8-day PHs from their Flight Centre (although they used to be able to get 14-day ones) because DLR understood that people coming across an ocean will want to stay longer.

I understand your point about getting my money any way they can is fine, but there are two things you did not address:
1) Increased costs to Disney for my extra days of attendance, however slight, that my family causes because we bought the APs and now visit the parks for, say, 10 days out of our vacay, when really 7 or 8 is ideal to my personal plans if I weren't desperate to recoup some extra Disney for all that extra cash we felt forced to spend. But I assume you will say that we basically cost them nothing with our added attendance?
2) How our decreased spending in other areas (food, merch) affects the employment and other costs of running those outlets in the parks. If gate integrity can be hurt at Six Flags by pricing entrance fees too low, so low that they are not made up for in increased spending on food, games, and merch, why can't the issue also go the other way? I know primarily the risk of pricing entry "too high" is that too few bodies comes through the gates, which is not a problem for DLR right now, but surely, the hiring, the supply orders, the energy costs, etc., must be an issue if people find it more and more necessary and/or worthwhile to curtail in-park spending. I thought that issue was a big complaint about single-day (or even partial-day) local AP visitors who typically spend less in the park than ticket buyers.

As for all of you debating fraud as the main reason, I have to think that there are SO many options for making it harder for Person B to use a PH that Person A originally used that fraud can NOT be a principle motivation. It doesn't mean that the higher prices and shorter ticket lengths won't hurt the scalpers' business, but if that were a primary interest, there are lots of other ways to do it while still allowing guests more freedom to plan a trip to their liking without increasing the cost by 67.5% ($756) as it currently does if a party of two adults + two kids go from 5-day PH ($1120) to APs ($1876) even if they only want two more days.

Finally, I have to ask: What is "berm"? Acronym? Slang? Abbreviation?

 

[ValpoCory]

The problem is they are pricing people out of spending extra days in the park after their 5 day tickets are done.

I suspect that, from Disney's perspective, that is not the problem. That is the point. It's not as though the Sharp Pencil Boys don't know the consequences: people will either pay up for more days, or they will go elsewhere. Disney apparently believes that they have enough demand that the parks will still see sufficient attendance at these price points. Time will tell, but based on the early crowd swings to DCA now that Cars Land is open, plus observing what Universal managed to do with Potter, I think Disney might be right.

The reason why it is clear to me that this is not what Disney believes is this ...

Disneyland Park Vice President Jon Storbeck's latest quote ...

Q: Where are you at in the process of turning this into the 4 and 5 day resort?
JON: Wow. I think we’re always looking for an opportunity to bring guests into the resort and give them an opportunity to stay another day, and I certainly think we’ve done that here with what you see with Cars Land. I think what we’ve done here…what the Imagineers have done…is just give the guests a reason when they come to Southern California to stay one more day here, whether they’re on ... a five day vacation and they want to stay a sixth, so it’s just a great environment for them.

So the Disney execs want guests to stay 6 days. With that now established, the only reasonable explanation for the elimination of the 6-day passes is to curtail fraud.