What 10 hours of street harassment in NYC looks like

[JenM]

Understood. I was cringing as well. I would suggest that any man who is bothered this video isn't someone who would catcall anyway.

That’s the problem. A lot of the men I’ve spoken to who were upset about the obviously ugly comments in the video didn’t understand why the ‘hellos’ and ‘how are you doing today’ comments were also a problem. One flat-out told me, “I don’t consider that harassment”. And these are men who’ve been in NY for a long time.

When we’ve explained things that have happened to us when we don’t say hello back, or what usually goes on if we do, they were utterly stunned not only by the incidents we were describing, but that pretty much all of us have been through it. They had no idea.

I have no clue what will happen as a result of the video. I don’t think it will stop. Hell, if you turn on Fox News, they’re saying we should take them as compliments, boys will be boys, and one genius even said it was “certainly provoked”. I mean...seriously?

When I saw it, I was just...yep, that’s exactly what happens. It’s been pretty sad to see how many other women agreed.

I assume this is in reference specifically someone walking up to a random stranger on the street as opposed to, say, someone chatting someone up in line at the grocery store or approaching someone in a bar? The reason I'm asking is because when you're in a place as a customer, you are well within your rights to ask an employee or manager to intervene. If they don't, that sends a crystal clear message that they don't value you as a customer & you should let them know. I would also let them know that their owner or corporate office might be interested to know how they dealt with the matter. Part of my job as a bartender (& then as a manager) was kicking creeps to the curb when they couldn't comprehend what "I'm not interested" meant. Assuring everyone's safety (even if it means losing out on some business) is & should be the absolute top priority of any store.

Yes, I’m well aware of my rights inside of a business. On the street, in the park, or on a subway, which is where the incidents discussed on this thread and on that video happened, it’s a whole different story. This is what the discussion has been about.

I agree with all of this. I would suggest though that it's people that come from a lower-class background that are more inclined to think this is acceptable behavior.

You’d be wrong. It’s just as likely to come from a guy in fancy suit with an expensive car as it is from a homeless guy. I’ve seen it from both.

My point in using that as an example was not to make a direct, apples-to-apples comparison, but to rather to show that addressing an issue while having the best of intent could end up being divisive for people. It's not the message, it's the delivery.

Especially if you try changing the subject. Yes, there should certainly be a video about men being falsely accused of a crime...but that has nothing to do with this discussion about street harassment.

I can't speak to living in a public transit place (such as the east coast) - having grown up on the west coast & the southwest (where driving directly from point A to point B is the usual modality). I assume in that the higher the public transit & pedestrian traffic levels, the higher the amount of harassment.

This video happened in NY. That’s where I’m from, and it was familiar because I’ve been through it myself. It’s just what happens here.

I have been harassed & been in situations where I haven't felt safe myself. I've been lucky that my size is usually a deterrent for most people - so I've only been physically assaulted a handful of times.

That said, I'm not naive enough to think that I've experienced nearly as much harassment as the average woman.

Then you should understand what we are saying when we explain why this bothers us.

It doesn’t mean we think all men do this (they don’t), it doesn’t mean that we don’t think there should be similar videos made of men being falsely accused of crimes (because that happens too), or that we think the video is perfect (I noticed the lack of diversity too, which is why I prefer the Jessica Williams segment from the Daily Show).

Again, I don’t know what the end game of the video will be. It’s sad that it exists, but I’m glad that it’s out there for people to see what women do go through, because the discussion has been pretty enlightening so far.

 

[3 MEN AND A BOAT]

I say Hello to people all the time(men and women), and after reading this thread I have to say that I doubt I ever want to visit NYC. Just doesn't sound like a very friendly place, men catcalling women, women assuming all men are rapist, not my type of place.

 

[olwyngdh]

I say Hello to people all the time(men and women), and after reading this thread I have to say that I doubt I ever want to visit NYC. Just doesn't sound like a very friendly place, men catcalling women, women assuming all men are rapist, not my type of place.

It doesn't just happen in NYC, and is just as threatening if not moreso in a small college town where there are not a lot of people around or stores to dock into to get away from it if necessary.

 

[gottaluvPluto]

I may be the only one, but "have a nice evening", "how are you this morning", and a few others, I personally do not consider this harassment. Sure, you may not want to hear anything from anyone, but harassment Sure, these sentences may lead to more that could be considered harrassment (by me), but those sentences themselves would not bother me.

So, is no one supposed to say anything to anyone anymore???? (That's a lot of "anys" )

Because the word harassment was used, I was expecting - "Wow! Look at that butt (but another word used). I like to get my hands on that and do something nasty." or "Look at those breast (but they would use another word) I'd like to get my hands on those." Now that is harassment and beyond.

But, "have a nice evening" and so forth isn't harassment to me. People have said these things to me and I did not think it was rude, harassing or anything mean. I just said hi back and moved on. Now, if a guy starting following me and saying those things then it would be harassment, very creep and scary.

As I walk by people, sometimes I say, "hey, have a great day." or "Hey, it's a nice day for a walk." I had no idea I was harassing people.

People are threatening her is very scary.

 

[Jennasis]

It doesn't matter what you or I consider harassment. It only matters to the victim.

 

[wdwmom2]

Because the word harassment was used, I was expecting - "Wow! Look at that butt (but another word used). I like to get my hands on that and do something nasty." or "Look at those breast (but they would use another word) I'd like to get my hands on those." Now that is harassment and beyond.

But, "have a nice evening" and so forth isn't harassment to me. People have said these things to me and I did not think it was rude, harassing or anything mean. I just said hi back and moved on. Now, if a guy starting following me and saying those things then it would be harassment, very creep and scary.

As I walk by people, sometimes I say, "hey, have a great day." or "Hey, it's a nice day for a walk." I had no idea I was harassing people.

People are threatening her is very scary.

I may be the only one, but "have a nice evening", "how are you this morning", and a few others, I personally do not consider this harassment. Sure, you may not want to hear anything from anyone, but harassment Sure, these sentences may lead to more that could be considered harrassment (by me), but those sentences themselves would not bother me.

So, is no one supposed to say anything to anyone anymore???? (That's a lot of "anys" )

It doesn't matter what you or I consider harassment. It only matters to the victim.

I agree. Everyone has their own experiences that forms the opinions that they have. And everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I would never tell someone that their opinion is wrong, it is just different from mine. That's why in my first post (bolded above) I said, "I personally do not consider this harassment", to the "have a nice evening" and the "how are you this mornings". IF, I know , big if, it stops there.

Up-thread it was said:

1 in 5 women in the US will get raped during their lifetime.
1 in 3 women in the US will be the victim of sexual abuse.

I was that 1 in 3, when I was 12 years old. A neighbor man. Had a DD, probably around 4 or 5. He would frequently throw a ball with her, out in the front yard. What a good father . Normal looking, acting fellow. I would occasionally go over and throw with them. Well, don't know if he ever did it before me, but after touching me inappropriately, he is a child molester. I never told anyone except DH. Kept it a secret all those years. I was embarrassed. Looking back, I should have told someone, but I didn't.

I certainly live in no bubble, but I refuse to paint all men as potential rapists. That would be a very wide brush.

I am very aware of my surroundings, and I don't judge people by the way they look. I am aware that a threat can come from anyone, anywhere, anytime.

I will not apologize for my opinion, as it is my own. What I am sorry for is if anyone took it as I was discounting theirs . I would never do that. Everyone has had life experiences that has formed their opinions, I will not take that away from anyone. You are entitled to that, and I respect that.

 

[Acklander]

Because the word harassment was used, I was expecting - "Wow! Look at that butt (but another word used). I like to get my hands on that and do something nasty." or "Look at those breast (but they would use another word) I'd like to get my hands on those." Now that is harassment and beyond.

But, "have a nice evening" and so forth isn't harassment to me. People have said these things to me and I did not think it was rude, harassing or anything mean. I just said hi back and moved on. Now, if a guy starting following me and saying those things then it would be harassment, very creep and scary.

As I walk by people, sometimes I say, "hey, have a great day." or "Hey, it's a nice day for a walk." I had no idea I was harassing people.

People are threatening her is very scary.

Saying have a nice evening isn't necessarily harassment, but think of it more in the surroundings and the intention by it. If a man says have a great day to a couple walking down the street vs. a single woman walking down the street it's going to have a different perception to those receiving it.
Look at it this way - when I was a child the man who owned the local candy store would sometimes give me a free piece of candy. He was a very friendly man and he would do this in front of my mom and his wife and anyone else in the store. It was purely innocent. Now, if he had done this on the sly with no one looking his intention might have been different. As a child, I might not know the difference, but as an adult -he should know how it would look even if he meant nothing bad by it.
All these men saying hi and have a nice evening to a single woman who they don't know, is going to come off with a different feel to it, even if they don't mean anything bad by it. Would those same men be saying hi and have a nice day to the woman if their wife or girlfriend was standing right beside them? If the answer is no - then it wasn't someone just being polite.

 

[snapppyd]

As frustrating as it may be when someone doesn't see your point of view, comments like this are neither helpful nor persuasive.

From a male's perspective, here's what's wrong with videos like this - the gut reaction is to automatically be on the defensive when you are part of the "offending party". A lot of that is largely in part to the reactions people have too. "God, men are awful", "buncha rape culture apologists" & "...and here come the 'Not All Men' chants!" Is that truly something that is supposed to make someone on the fence or a potential ally really jump on board?


If someone made a video called "Here's What A Man Goes Through When He's Falsely Accused of Domestic Violence or Rape", I think it's safe to say that it would be fairly divisive, yes? Even though they may have the best of intent in releasing the video (ie: false accusations are one of the most destructive things possible since it ruins lives & it also makes it harder for genuine claims). The problem is that it would also serve to vilify women. Sure a couple of hearts & minds might've been won over to their point of view, but for the most part it just strengthens the division. People who have valid reasons for taking either side are automatically written off by the other as "shills" or "apologists".

Taking a hardline "if you're not with us, you're part of the problem" approach will certainly get attention, but it's not the positive kind. PETA is a pretty good example on the results of said tactics - the true believers see them as uncompromising crusaders, the rest see them as fanatical whackados.


Now, am I standing by the creeps in the video? Absolutely not. But spotlighting microaggressions & expecting vociferous outrage from the majority of the "offenders" is naive at best.

I am not naive and I don't really care to persuade anyone to my point of view. The video is about a woman walking in NYC and being catcalled.

l. I am a woman
2. I am a New Yorker
3. I have been catcalled (and worse)

The original post said "thoughts". I gave mine. They are mine. I have a big problem with people coming on this thread who have never been to the city, who have never experienced this, who are not women, telling me and other women that our instincts are wrong - people are just being "nice". I have not lived this long with developing intuition.

If you want to discuss men who are falsely accused why not find a video and start a thread about that?

Speaking just for me, I would never presume to tell someone how to feel about something they had gone through that I had never experienced. But again, your mileage may vary.


Other women on this thread are much more eloquent at expressing their thoughts. I never claimed to be a great communicator, so I am bowing out now before my stomach churns any more.

Have a nice day.

 

[wishing4PA]

I am not naive and I don't really care to persuade anyone to my point of view. The video is about a woman walking in NYC and being catcalled.

l. I am a woman
2. I am a New Yorker
3. I have been catcalled (and worse)

The original post said "thoughts". I gave mine. They are mine. I have a big problem with people coming on this thread who have never been to the city, who have never experienced this, who are not women, telling me and other women that our instincts are wrong - people are just being "nice". I have not lived this long with developing intuition.

I hate to see this becoming a divisive issue. IMHO, that's happening partly because so much media is based in the cities where this seems to be more of an issue. So this video and videos like it are now reaching a lot of people (like me) who are in areas and/or situations where cat calling is simply a non-issue. Since thoughts were requested, and it is certainly an interesting topic, I responded with my own comments. But yes, it's a non-issue in my life and this little part of America I reside in at the moment.

I do hope that these sort of videos can spark discussion and "awareness" in the areas where it is a problem. Best wishes on reaching the cat calling men who need to be reached with the message.

 

[FergieTCat]

But some here are saying it's just a hello, good morning, etc. If that is the case they can say good morning to a man as well. You are admitting they do it to women because of looks. That is the problem, it's wrong.

Joining this conversation late in the game because I was on vacation, away from NYC. *bliss*

I agree with everything snapppyd has posted. I'm a woman and I live in NYC. I think the catcalls are an assertion of power. There is no other reason to do it, and I don't appreciate it. I respond better to someone saying "Hello" in a neutral voice. I'm odd like that.

Yes, I've been groped on a crowded subway, and yes, I've seen worse.

I'm pretty sure I've said everything I can while staying within the guidelines of this board.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Thoughts. I'm a white male, so take these with a grain of salt:

There's a difference between "how are you doing?" and *wiggle eyebrows, stare at chest* "How YOU doin'?"

I've never seen this at this level myself.

What does it say that there is a lack of racial diversity in the men shown in the video?

 

[msjprincess]

Thoughts. I'm a white male, so take these with a grain of salt:

There's a difference between "how are you doing?" and *wiggle eyebrows, stare at chest* "How YOU doin'?"

I've never seen this at this level myself.

What does it say that there is a lack of racial diversity in the men shown in the video?

I can't find the story I read the other day but the producers of the video said there were men of all races but when they edited it they accidentally left out the white men or something like that.

I'll have to see if I can find it again.

ETA
This may have been the article http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch...o-calls-out-catcallers-but-cuts-out-white-men

 

[JanaDee]

I am not naive and I don't really care to persuade anyone to my point of view. The video is about a woman walking in NYC and being catcalled.

l. I am a woman
2. I am a New Yorker
3. I have been catcalled (and worse)

The original post said "thoughts". I gave mine. They are mine. I have a big problem with people coming on this thread who have never been to the city, who have never experienced this, who are not women, telling me and other women that our instincts are wrong - people are just being "nice". I have not lived this long with developing intuition.

If you want to discuss men who are falsely accused why not find a video and start a thread about that?

Speaking just for me, I would never presume to tell someone how to feel about something they had gone through that I had never experienced. But again, your mileage may vary.


Other women on this thread are much more eloquent at expressing their thoughts. I never claimed to be a great communicator, so I am bowing out now before my stomach churns any more.

Have a nice day.

The OP asked for thoughts. People gave their opinions, just like you did yours.

One is no more valid than the other.

 

[Lynne M]

Random thoughts....

I don't think that anyone here is saying "hey, you....Guy Who Posted on This Thread....you have to fix this". When we say that men need to fix this, we're not talking about that.

And really, it's not just men that have to fix it. Parents have to fix it. Moms and Dads, who teach their children that there's a right way and a wrong way to talk to people. I dunno, back when I was a kid, dads gave their sons advice on how to date women, how to talk to women. Older brothers gave their little brothers advice, too. Those are the guys that'll either fix it, or cause it to continue, because of what they pass on to their sons and brothers.

Videos like this are meant to start conversations. And some of the conversations they start should be between parents and kids. Wouldn't it be great to use this as a teachable moment? To watch it with teen sons and daughters and ask what they think about what's happening in the video?

I'm sure some teenage boys would be surprised to learn that women usually don't like it when a stranger yells "hey, babe, you look hot!" Yes, a lot of the guys who do this just plain sleazy. But some of it is just sheer cluelessness on how to deal with the opposite sex.

I'm sure dads and brothers are still out there giving good advice, but man, some days you wonder. I recently read a story about a woman who met a guy on a dating service, exchanged some e-mails, had some good phone conversations, and then set a date to meet for dinner. Seemed like a nice, smart, upstanding guy, I think he worked in finance. A couple hours before dinner, she received a text from him containing a picture.....um, of a body part he apparently hoped to introduce her to after dinner. He was completely confused and upset when she cancelled the date. Lots of women chimed in with similar stories, so apparently this is a 'thing' now.

Now that's a guy without a clue. You wonder where he was getting his dating advice. Yeah, there are women who are looking for a quick no-strings hookup with a stranger, and would welcome a preview of coming attractions. But generally, if all of your previous conversations have been about work, family, interests, etc, and no mention of hooking up, the odds are pretty good she won't react well to getting that picture.

 

[3 MEN AND A BOAT]

Random thoughts....

I don't think that anyone here is saying "hey, you....Guy Who Posted on This Thread....you have to fix this". When we say that men need to fix this, we're not talking about that.

And really, it's not just men that have to fix it. Parents have to fix it. Moms and Dads, who teach their children that there's a right way and a wrong way to talk to people. I dunno, back when I was a kid, dads gave their sons advice on how to date women, how to talk to women. Older brothers gave their little brothers advice, too. Those are the guys that'll either fix it, or cause it to continue, because of what they pass on to their sons and brothers.

Videos like this are meant to start conversations. And some of the conversations they start should be between parents and kids. Wouldn't it be great to use this as a teachable moment? To watch it with teen sons and daughters and ask what they think about what's happening in the video?

I'm sure some teenage boys would be surprised to learn that women usually don't like it when a stranger yells "hey, babe, you look hot!" Yes, a lot of the guys who do this just plain sleazy. But some of it is just sheer cluelessness on how to deal with the opposite sex.

I'm sure dads and brothers are still out there giving good advice, but man, some days you wonder. I recently read a story about a woman who met a guy on a dating service, exchanged some e-mails, had some good phone conversations, and then set a date to meet for dinner. Seemed like a nice, smart, upstanding guy, I think he worked in finance. A couple hours before dinner, she received a text from him containing a picture.....um, of a body part he apparently hoped to introduce her to after dinner. He was completely confused and upset when she cancelled the date. Lots of women chimed in with similar stories, so apparently this is a 'thing' now.

Now that's a guy without a clue. You wonder where he was getting his dating advice. Yeah, there are women who are looking for a quick no-strings hookup with a stranger, and would welcome a preview of coming attractions. But generally, if all of your previous conversations have been about work, family, interests, etc, and no mention of hooking up, the odds are pretty good she won't react well to getting that picture.

Truth be told I have to wonder if their wasn't more to the story of her Internet date. I mean it's difficult for me to believe that he went from pleasant conversation to a pic of his junk. Surely their was more indications of him being a perve than that. Even if it was only on his part without her resiprocation, I just have to think she may have overlooked a few jokes or comments that lead him to believe this might be ok. Although I have met some people that are totally clueless, they usually don't hide it very well.

 

[RadioNate]

Truth be told I have to wonder if their wasn't more to the story of her Internet date. I mean it's difficult for me to believe that he went from pleasant conversation to a pic of his junk. Surely their was more indications of him being a perve than that. Even if it was only on his part without her resiprocation, I just have to think she may have overlooked a few jokes or comments that lead him to believe this might be ok. Although I have met some people that are totally clueless, they usually don't hide it very well.

lol - yall have never done internet dating have you?

I won't link because they are nsfw but instagram accounts like byefelipe and tindernightmares are full of interactions like this.

Being nice and friendly is what "led him to believe this was ok."

I recently was licked and bit on the neck in a bar. A guy stopped me and said something that seemed urgent, it was loud; I leaned in to hear him and ask what and he said and he licked and bit me. I obviously was NOT happy and his friends pulled him away and apologized. A few months later, while working, I ran into his friends who told me that guy does it all the time to women. That's his "move." They were embarrassed.

But there are plenty of guys who think simply being nice and polite is enough of a sign to just go for it. They don't care. You are an object. If they do it to 100 women and 1 responds positively and they get "lucky," they don't care about the 99 other's who think they are disgusting.

 

[3 MEN AND A BOAT]

lol - yall have never done internet dating have you?

I won't link because they are nsfw but instagram accounts like byefelipe and tindernightmares are full of interactions like this.

Being nice and friendly is what "led him to believe this was ok."

I recently was licked and bit on the neck in a bar. A guy stopped me and said something that seemed urgent, it was loud; I leaned in to hear him and ask what and he said and he licked and bit me. I obviously was NOT happy and his friends pulled him away and apologized. A few months later, while working, I ran into his friends who told me that guy does it all the time to women. That's his "move." They were embarrassed.

But there are plenty of guys who think simply being nice and polite is enough of a sign to just go for it. They don't care. You are an object. If they do it to 100 women and 1 responds positively and they get "lucky," they don't care about the 99 other's who think they are disgusting.

Yeah I've seen strange behavior in bars but that usually involves drinking. Your right, I've never experienced Internet dating, but I did date some weirdos.

 

[Lynne M]

Truth be told I have to wonder if their wasn't more to the story of her Internet date. I mean it's difficult for me to believe that he went from pleasant conversation to a pic of his junk. Surely their was more indications of him being a perve than that. Even if it was only on his part without her resiprocation, I just have to think she may have overlooked a few jokes or comments that lead him to believe this might be ok. Although I have met some people that are totally clueless, they usually don't hide it very well.

If you have trouble buying that story (and I agree, it sounds crazy).....there are hundreds more like it out there. There are entire tumblrs, entire sites, devoted to crazy messages that people get from prospective dates. People post screenshots of the messages. Many go like this:

Guy: hey

Girl: hi

Guy: I liked your profile

Girl: thanks

Guy: <incredibly gross proposition>

Girl: That's disgusting, stop messaging me!

Guy: <several pages of vile names, telling her to kill herself, calling her ugly, etc>

I'm not kidding, there's TONS of examples just like this out there. I spent a good hour reading through a site and ROFLing. And before anyone accuses me of being one-sided, yep, there's plenty of crazy texts by women posted out there. But what got me was the similarity - so many men going straight from 'hi' to obscene suggestions, and yes, pictures, and being bewildered and angry when women react badly.

This is where I started to question where these guys are getting their dating advice.

 

[Jeff in BigD]

This is where I started to question where these guys are getting their dating advice.

For most of them, if I had to guess, it's probably a combination of two or more out of any of the following:
-Special Snowflake Syndrome.

-An unstable home environment.

-Lacking a male role model.

-Not having any sense of accountability or consequences for one's actions.

-A increasingly steady diet of seeing pop-stars on TV emulate strippers.

-An increase of regular girls imitating said behavior, thus making it seem normal & expected.

-Failure to realize that most girls grow out of the phase where any male attention is exciting.

-Thinking that men & women are wired exactly same way.

I'm sure there's more that I haven't listed. I just shake my head at what a lot of Gen Ys consider "having game."