Updated ADA rules posted today

Discussion in 'disABILITIES!' started by Justin Jett, Jul 26, 2010.

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  1. CR ESQ.

    CR ESQ. Earning My Ears

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    Hello again,

    This really is an amazing topic. The fall in the video above looks pretty nasty. So nasty is sent me the YouTube looking around for some more.

    Of course it appears that the rider was neither disabled nor following any safety protocol stated earlier in this thread.
    I saw some videos that are of irresponsible power chair use also.

    My question is would this chair be allowed in Disney. It seems to move quite quickly and although the rider stays on board during this video what would happen if they fell off. I would assume someone would get hit and after researching the chair is much heavier than a Segway and capable of about the same speed.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7YDPQQpgTI


    If speed and control are big issues I would assume wheelchairs of this size and speed would also not be allowed in the parks.
    I'm just trying to get my arms around this thing. These seem to be behavioral problems not problems with the equipment.

    Back in the days when I was in practice things were much easier, a wheelchair with a wheelchair. That's why I find this whole topic incredible. In the last two days I've seen more wheelchairs and scooters online than I ever thought were available.

    I think the most amazing part is that nobody has come up with a practical stand up device that would meet the speed requirements and other specifications that would please all involve. The standup wheelchairs I have seen look like they would be overkill for someone who could support their own weight. I believe Redman was one of the manufacturers.

    A friend has sent me a picture of the ESV. It looks very interesting although I don't see how parking the would be easier than a stroller or a Segway. Does anybody know if one is able to buy an ESV for personal use?

    Thanks in advance for your input.

    Harold
     
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  3. mgilmer

    mgilmer <a href="http://www.wdwinfo.com/dis-sponsor/index.

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    Just interpose the following video against a WDW background and you can only imagine the mayhem to the public in the parks:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmLLGYn9Fo8&feature=related

    Unfortunately as posted before, it will probably take a killed or seriously maimed child to act as a cause celeb before a "Amber Alert" type law passes Congress to overrule this lunacy on the part of the DOJ.
     
  4. Gwinfred

    Gwinfred Earning My Ears

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    The question is not whether people can behave badly, see the following wheelchair video and imagine this behavior in Disneyworld:

    http://www.videobash.com/video_show...traffic+trade&utm_campaign=pornhub+trade box7

    The question is can the Segway, or any other mobility device for that matter, when used responsibly be used safely in the enviroment in question?

    With regard to the Segway the evidence gathered over the last seven years is that of course it can. In fact their is little to no evidence to the contrary, there is not one a single reported incidence of a person with a disability using a Segway having caused any substantive injury to another and they have been used in Universal Studios, the San Diego Zoo and at events and venues every bit as densely populated as any Disney venue.

    The Segway is unlike any other mobility device see:

    http://www.draft.org/LinkClick.aspx...udies/Physics+of+Segways.pdf&tabid=75&mid=502

    I know that Disney is about imagination but I think Walt Disney inspired those to see the bright side of things and for many here their imagination has taken on a perverse twist resulting in nightmarish scenarios that no have basis in reality.

    The Segway for many is a dream come true, the beginning of a brighter future and in the case of the disabled Segway user the truth will indeed set them free.
     
  5. Justin Jett

    Justin Jett <font color=darkorchid>I will do my Elvis impressi

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    It has often been said that Universal Studios Orlando allows disabled people to use Segways.

    I'm curious to know if anyone has used a Segway in the Wizarding World of Harry Potter.
     
  6. Andrew Bichard

    Andrew Bichard DIS Veteran

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    No, but they do allow a suitably modified version of the Nimbus 2000.

    Andrew
     
  7. Chuck S

    Chuck S DVC Boards Co-Moderator Moderator

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    Sure people can behave badly. But, in the Segway video I linked, it really wasn't a case of "bad behavior" per se. It was a case of an inexperienced rider losing control, and having the Segway flip and roll into what, at Disney, would have likely been a crowd of pedestrians rather than an empty street.

    Do you think it is a good idea to have a law that would require Disney to allow Segways that anyone could rent, without any prerequiste of experience or training? Given that they have a higher center of gravity, can go faster, and are prone to flipping and rolling under far more circumstances than a 3 or 4 wheeled approved assitance vehicle. Also, the wheelchair video shown above used, for the most part, a skate park, with extreme hills, steps, and even one idiot wheeling off of a car. Not areas where people would normally be walking But the Segway accidents appear mostly to happen on level, paved terrain. Areas generally used by pedestrians. Apples to oranges.
     
  8. Gwinfred

    Gwinfred Earning My Ears

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    First of all the Segway operator that was depicted in the video link contained in your post was not disabled. Further in my opinion it was a case of bad behavior, operating the Segway at top speed, stepping off of it while at top speed and holding onto the handlebars would be deemed by anyone familiar with the recommended operating characteristics of the Segway as bad behavior.

    With regard to the video link which I posted, are there no stairs in Disney's venues? 16 seconds in shows the wheelchair operator flying down a set of stairs with a very bad result.

    I don't know that Segways are more prone to flipping and rolling than three or four wheeled devices (I'm not sure what the term approved means) the device certainly does not have a higher center of gravity but if you read the PDF of the link which I pointed to regarding the Segway you would see that the operator center of gravity would be higher.

    Do you have some basis in physics or studies done which indicate that the Segway is more prone to flipping and rolling when operated under normal conditions than a three or four wheeled device?

    I have absolutely no issue with those who seek to better understand the Segway based upon scientific data, research and real-world evidence which exists now after seven years. What is bizarre is that now after seven years people continue to cite things that are not supportable and there are others who will believe them.

    So my statement continues to be unrefuted

    "there is not one single reported incident of a person with a disability using a Segway having caused any substantive injury to another in the more than seven years of their use."

    If you can refute that statement then we can have a "apples to apples" discussion, statistically it is is completely improbable that some injury hasn't occurred but it happens to be the case that none have been reported while there are many reported injuries to others by those using power wheelchairs and scooters .
     
  9. Chuck S

    Chuck S DVC Boards Co-Moderator Moderator

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    Actually, look closely at the video I posted. The left wheel of the Segway comes off the ground before the rider steps off, he does not step off until the machine starts to flip.

    And again, you have not answered the question I posed...do you think it is wise to have a law that forces a venue, with a high number of pedestrians, to permit Segways operated by anyone with the $$ to rent one, whether they have a disability or are out for a fun spin without any experience? Do you feel that Segways are safe in a large crowd if operated by a novice with no training?

    If the ADA allows for these devices in public areas, by anyone, for any reason, do you feel there are no safety concerns?
     
  10. livndisney

    livndisney DIS Veteran

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    There have not been reported cases of a person with a disability using a Segway causing injury because Segways have not been recognized as an approved medical device.
     
  11. Gwinfred

    Gwinfred Earning My Ears

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    that's just nonsense, Segways are in the news every single day and watched like a hawk for any sort of anomaly by the press. And by Disney for that matter :)
     
  12. Gwinfred

    Gwinfred Earning My Ears

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    The reason the wheel came off the ground if you study it closely is because the rider leaned far to the right (either from inexperience or more probably because he was trying to elicit the response that he got) and then stepped off the Segway. Typical kid stuff happens with all kinds of devices (including wheelchairs by the way). In normal operations this would not have happened.

    With regard to the "keeping it real part" if you have read the new reg's closely you will notice that it gives the venue a little more latitude in determining disability. The truth is that a person with a disability who is not trained to use the Segway would rarely if ever choose to rent a Segway over a scooter. And candidly an untrained user presents more of a risk to themselves than to others. There are plenty of tour groups around the country to use as an example to substantiate this.

    The ADA does not allow the devices to be used by anyone and for any reason and indeed allows venues such as Disney to utilize "individual assessment" in the event there is someone that is operating a device in an unsafe manner.

    It would seem if the scenario which you imagine where going to happen it would've already happened at Universal Studios and yet to my knowledge there is no firm renting Segways to be used there. The truth is that using an assistive device (particularly one where you have to stand) would be terribly inconvenient and candidly very few people attend or visit by themselves and so using a Segway with another walking wouldn't seem to be that much fun unless you needed it for mobility.
     
  13. livndisney

    livndisney DIS Veteran

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    Nonsense? Not hardly. I don't see Segways in the news everyday, nor am I aware of them being watched like a "hawk".

    It is not logical to argue that there is no proof of a disabled Segway user not causing an accident simply becaause there are no statistics as Segways have not been recognized as an approved device. Much the same way there are no statistics for the number of people in the park in yellow shirts. Just because no one can point to a number does not mean that no one has worn a yellow shirt to the park.
     
  14. Chuck S

    Chuck S DVC Boards Co-Moderator Moderator

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    Also, to whom would these accidents be reported? I was unaware there is any sort of agency that receives reports of Segway accidents. Please provide a link.

    How so? If no documentation is required, other than answering the question "Are you Disabled?" That pretty much says that anyone showing up at a venue must be allowed access, just by answering, "Yes." There are no laws preventing a Segway, or any other device, from being rented offsite by anyone for any reason. And there are certainly rental companies that promote such usage.

    Really? You're saying people woundn't rent one for fun because they have to stand up? What about all the folks that take the Segway Tours "for fun?" There are Segway tours in almost every major US city.
     
  15. fredkap

    fredkap Earning My Ears

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    Chuck S, The new regs give Disney the right to ask if you have a state issued disability placard. Disney could also ask if you owned the Segway or rented it. They could ask how long have you used a Segway. I would agree that if a person said that they were trained on it that morning than Disney could refuse entrance. Once inside the park, a person could be ejected or forbidden from continued use of a Segway if they traveled faster than walking speed. Can I categorically state that a non-disabled person could gain access on a Segway - no. But once they enter the park they won't be permitted to go fast or reckless. Currently, there are probably less than 100 requests per year to use a Segway at Disney. While that number will grow, I agree that a person should have more than a 10 minute training session before using a machine in Disney. That can easily be avoided by Disney setting a policy that a person must have used a Segway for at least a week prior to entrance in the Park.
     
  16. mrsksomeday

    mrsksomeday My Prince uses a power wheelchair!

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    The right to ask if they have a placard. but they can't ask to see proof that I am aware of. If it is just the right to ask anyone can say "yes I do have a placard".

    This is useless, again the person wanting to use a Segway could easily lie.

    Disney is going to have to have CM's on segways to to catch up to the users that are traveling faster than walking speed. How many times to they warn someone before escorting them out of the park?

    How do you propose they enforce this?? How would Disney be able to know that the person is telling the truth?


     
  17. jcb

    jcb always emerging from hibernation

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    This is understandably complex, primarily because different federal agencies have jurisdiction over different issues. Justice regulates "public accommodations" (e.g., WDW) but then DOT regulates transportation and the "Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board" referred to as the "Access Board" is "an independent Federal agency" that "develops and maintains design criteria for the built environment, transit vehicles, telecommunications equipment, and for electronic and information technology."

    As to buses, CR ESQ has posted guidance from the DOT. It is not legally binding but reflects the opinion of the agency. A bus operator who follows the guidance can say it acted in good faith. Refusing to follow the guidance would not be an automatic legal violation but it could, if a court agreed, be illegal. The court is not required to agree. Odds are it would.

    On July 26, 2010, the Access Board (which is separate from the DOT) stated in a notice of proposed rulemaking:

    Best of all, making a comment is free. It can be done online (regulations.gov). You don't have to be a lawyer. Just a person with an opinion. Sadly, I just don't think anyone on this board has an opinion. ;)
     
  18. CR ESQ.

    CR ESQ. Earning My Ears

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    Good afternoon,

    From a personal standpoint I still don't know where I stand on this. From a legal standpoint I have a different opinion.
    One thing I do know is that the use of YouTube videos always amuses me. Today I searched Segway crashes, the Segway injuries, wheelchair crashes etc.

    I do find it astounding that those that post videos only seem to post the ones that suit your needs. I also did a YouTube search on Segs4Vets and DRAFT. Why is it no one ever posts them.

    Here's a little example:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Orn_h78p17g

    I found that on YouTube with many others showing people in wheelchairs riding escalators tumbling over etc. but as a reasonable person I don't look at that video and think to myself "well those damned disabled people they are a danger to society and should be kept away from the general public".

    Obviously that's extreme but no more extreme than selectively choosing videos to see one's needs.

    Again the thing I find strikingly strange is that I can find true hard news stories, not blogs etc. about a Segway injuring another person. I thought that would be pretty easy to do, let's face it at this point everyone's camera is their own little news studio and yet nothing.

    When the Monorail accident happened photos had hit the news wires within minutes. I'm assuming it would be the same if an old woman or small child was run over by a Segway.

    Thank you for taking the time to listen,
    Harold
     
  19. CR ESQ.

    CR ESQ. Earning My Ears

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    No argument there Jack!

    There is no question it's very easy to follow opinions on these matters. If you're reading the list of comments it was striking how few objectors there were to the Segway issue.

    With the amount of traffic on this board with any effort at all they would've swamped the DOJ with objections.

    It's too late for this, I think I retired too early as I see a courtroom coming , but there is a new rule change that will open for comment soon. There are four issues on it and anyone who posts on this board should give their opinion whether it affects them directly or not. Either the disabled community voices their opinions or they will let other people make the choices for them.
    After spending my entire adult life as a civil rights attorney and then Dist. Atty. I can say one thing and total confidence. There is a great deal of apathy within the disabled community and if they don't wake up and watch what's going on carefully other people will decide their destiny.



    Enjoy yourself today,
    Harold
     
  20. livndisney

    livndisney DIS Veteran

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    More thoughts on Segway use:

    http://www.universalhub.com/2010/contentious-hearing-could-lead-segway-regulations

    "Steve Spinetto, commissioner for persons with disabilities, said Segways "are actually an incredible boon for people with disabilities" - if they ride them.. But they're a potential threat to the handicapped who don't ride them because they might move more slowly - or be unable to see or hear them. Spinnetto said vehicles that move at 12 mph can cause serious harm to pedestrians. "That's an accident waiting to happen."

    http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20060914/094043.shtml

    "Re: Re: segways
    Randall, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 2:04pm
    I had a segway accident in 2004. I was in a coma for 2 weeks and wasn't expected to live.I spent 4 months in critical care.
    the right side of my head is now titanium as a result of my injuries and 4 brain operations.
    I will never work or play again due to brain parts missing.
    Tell me who you are writing for.
    rb"

    "Segway
    Just Me, Oct 21st, 2008 @ 7:37am
    I was permanently disabled several years ago on a Segway that was later recalled by the company and fixed. THEY clearly acknowledged it was defective at the time because they didn't realize yet how many people were getting injured as most were probably minor and never reported."


    Even with training people get hurt from Feb of this year:
    http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2010/feb/23/collier-county-deputies-crash-segways-1-breaks-ank/
    A Collier County sheriff’s deputy broke his ankle early Monday when he and another deputy crashed their Segways.
     
  21. fredkap

    fredkap Earning My Ears

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    The regs allow Disney or any public accomodation to ask for the presentation of a valid state issued disability placard, they even add that if the placard has expired than it is not valid. Most people who know that that is the rule will be prepared and comply.

    Lets assume there is a shady rental company that tells their patrons to lie about how long they have used a Segway. If their customer has an accident and Disney discovers that the company is telling their customers to lie, what do you think Disney's legal Dept will do to that company? A reasonable rental company will want to independently verify that their customer has a valid disability placard and has sufficent experience to use the machine safely at Disney prior to renting a machine outside a Disney venue. The rental company absolutely could have a prerequisite of a presentation of a valid state disabled placard to rent their machines for use within Disney.

    Disney has plenty of security that knows how to eject someone acting recklessly within their parks.
     
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