Update- some GOOD some bad some sort of big: early entry returning Oct 1?

[hopemax]

You know what I can't help thinking. 2 admissions to Epcot would be away to sneak around that "value" equation thing. Parks like AK and the Studios look small when they go up against rosters like Epcot or the Magic Kingdom. But compare them to just Future World or just World Showcase, it's not so bad.

And for the most part we wouldn't see much of a difference. AP's, LOS passes, park hopper pass people would continue to visit the park in the same manner that they always have (well, maybe a little price jump since there will be 5 gates and not four but I'm sure they can pass that off with a yearly "inflation" price hike). It's the one day visitors, that will see the most change.

It would be another nail in the coffin that the old way is dead. It would definetly change the future generation's definition of "complete" park.

 

[raidermatt]

Now granted Matt my little zinger was nothing more than a to those folks who were so confident that EE was gone forever. But at the same time, it's not like a band of disgruntled guests stormed the gates of Burbank and laid seige on the joint until EE was returned.

You're right, the band didn't lay seige. Instead, they just decided to go elsewhere, which was the attack that WDW could not withstand.

...and once a ball gets rolling, momentum is much easier to increase than if it were stationary...don't be surprised to see these efforts soon grow into "additions" rather than just "restorations"...

I can't argue, and I sincerely hope you are right.


I'm still not completely clear on exactly what is verified, but what bothers me is the cut of Hunchback, Tarzan and reduction of ToD.

If you really want to WOW me by giving me an ice cream cone, you don't kick me in the shin while you do it...

 

[DisneyKidds]

If you really want to WOW me by giving me an ice cream cone, you don't kick me in the shin while you do it...

Only a kick in the shin if you are looking for a kick in the shin. I like to think we are looking at an 'out with the old, in with the new' situation. Granted, we don't know what the new is, but be patient. (Silence - as DK waits for all those people who used to say 'what makes you believe EE will return?', 'what makes you believe anything will get better?').

Frankly, Huntchback, Tarzan and ToD were probably some of the least popular shows. Yes, they had fans. Yes, I liked them. However, many people didn't feel the need to see them again and again, or see them at all. Last time we saw ToD we watched more people trying to get around it than sitting and watching. Plus, it isn't going away, just shortening/going to one route. As for Huntchback - yes, it had a more talented cast than Beauty and the Beast, but it just didn't attract the same crowd. Huntchback always had fewer shows, yet it still didn't command SRO like Beauty and the Beast does most times we are there - and Beauty and the Beast is a much larger theatre. Tarzan just never seemed to catch on, but we really liked it.

While the Tarzan theatre is tucked away and could remain empty without being obvious, it is hard to imagine them not putting this asset to work. As for the Huntchback theatre, it is too much a part of that end of NY Avenue to go empty for too long. With the hints and allegations scoop is floating I bet we see some new entertainment in these venues. When, I don't know. What makes me believe that? The same sense that made me believe hours would come back and EE would some day return. Granted, we aren't all the way there, we actually have a long way to go, but it is a start, a spark, something Figment might get excited about.

Lets not forget that todays news is on the heels of the knowledge that for Sept and the first half of October (at least) we have MK hours until 8:00, with some form of nighttime entertainment, be it FITS or Spectro, most nights during the week, in the off season.

Right now there is still plenty of room in car 2, but it might start to fill up quick in the not too distant future . Don't wait too long.......

 

[d-r]

Originally posted by raidermatt
My Hunchback comments pretty much apply to Tarzan as well, though its a little more puzzleing given the "not enough to do" criticisms of AK. Or have those criticisms waned due to DR?

No I said earlier in this thread that they would have to replace Tarzan because they can't afford to loose attractions at AK.

 

[raidermatt]

. I like to think we are looking at an 'out with the old, in with the new' situation.

Well, 20,000 Leagues and the The Skyway were "outed" quite some time ago...

Then there's Timekeeper and CoP...

True, its easier to stick a new show in than to build another attraction, but there's only so many times we should allow ourselves to be fooled before we stop assuming a closure will be replaced.

I think I said I don't have a handle on the relative popularity of the shows, and therefore, accept their closure based on that, regardless of how much I liked them. HOWEVER, if the goal is to WOW, these are still negatives that diminish the WOW. There really is no logical justification for not classifying these as negatives at this time. Given the desparate times WDW is in, and the apparent realization that they need some WOWs, this is questionable timing at best.

The decrease in ToD is a lesser negative, but a negative nonethe less. One of the nice things about this parade was that we didn't have to get their 3 hours before it started to get a good spot. During busy periods, 45 minutes to an hour was ok for a prime spot. Now, the crowds will double. If the decrease is only for slow periods, like most of the next 6 months, it wouldn't be a problem at all. But that's not what they said, and again, past actions provide no basis for assumptions.

Only a kick in the shin if you are looking for a kick in the shin.

I didn't ask for the kick, they provided it. I suppose I could choose to ignore it, but that's not my style...

 

[raidermatt]

D-R, sorry, I didn't really mean to direct that question at anyone in particular. I agree with you, that AK shouldn't be losing any attractions.

However, its possible that the attendance figures show a bump due to the new additions, and WDW feels AK can lose an attraction like Tarzan without much impact. (Again, that may just be a bump relative to the other parks, meaning not as large a decrease)

 

[Peter Pirate]

Mr. Kidds, I'm actually with Matt on this one. It seems like a high price to pay for getting EE back. I disagree that Huntchback, Tarzan & ToD were not popular. As you know we visit often and these are always on our agenda and the shows are always quite full. Even this last Sunday with only about 500( ) people at MGM, Huntchback was still quite full. A ToD reduction I can live with (but it better not go away).

Also, let me qualify. While I love Huntchback & Tarzan it would be much easier to let go if we knew there were to be a quality replacement, but just cancelling stinks of the Doug fiasco...What's in there now (he asks rhetorically)???

Also, on a personal note Mr. Kidds, I no way believe the cast of Huntcback is more talented than B&TB. Belle has much more difficult songs to sing (musically) & the current Gaston is absolutely awesome. The cast for Huntchback is larger & more are miked, but in no way are they better...End of my purely subjective rant...

Oh, is the Tarzan cancellation confirmed?

 

[Luckymommyx2]

Originally posted by EUROPA
Feel the exact same way Bob...If it's still there for our visit in Nov. For those of us the wrote letters, called, emailed or spoke to managers at Disney this is a victory. Hunchback was a show that we had not seen either but were planning on seeing it when we go in Nov...too bad. Lets hope this is just the start of good things at Disney. I've got my eye on shinny new car # 2 if this sort of thing keeps up, which is a huge step up from my car #3



back to the Gemini thing...so it's not the two park idea?

Okay, forgive me for my ignorance but what is the car #2 and car #3 thing all about? I've seen it mentioned once or twice and refrained from asking but this time I will risk looking stupid.

 

[hopemax]

Luckymommy,

Check out the #3 "Important" and the top of the message list and all will be revealed.

 

[Luckymommyx2]

Thanks for the quick reply!!

 

[DisneyKidds]

I disagree that Huntchback, Tarzan & ToD were not popular. As you know we visit often and these are always on our agenda and the shows are always quite full. Even this last Sunday with only about 500( ) people at MGM, Huntchback was still quite full.

I didn't say they weren't popular, just not as popular as some other shows. Different folks, different experiences I guess. We didn't hit HB every trip, but when we did getting a good seat wasn't hard. Actually, we were never turned away. This can't be said of Beauty and the Beast which is in a much larger theatre. ToD was not a must for us either, but we did try to see it. Given the number of folks who probably visit WDW more often than the average Joe that have contributed to this thread and said they have never seen some of these shows I think it is safe to say 'not as popular'.

Yes, losing these shows is a negative. Yes, good points about other take aways without replacements. However, I feel that we will see something to replace these items. No, I have no proof. Not even a rumor. No, I don't know when. However, it doesn't make much sense that while Disney is taking steps to improve the guest experience they would take away this entertainment without some plan for making sure there is enough to do for all the guests they hope to lure back. (how is that for a run-on ). I can be patient, as I was six months ago, a year ago, a............ Yeah, it sucks to have to be patient, but that's life.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Also, let me qualify. While I love Huntchback & Tarzan it would be much easier to let go if we knew there were to be a quality replacement, but just cancelling stinks of the Doug fiasco...What's in there now (he asks rhetorically)???

Was this quote from me? Did someone break into my computer and rip-off my files of standard replies to Mr. Kidds!! It sounds like it!! It reads EXACTLY like something I would say!!

But NO!!! It was the Pirate!! Welcome to your new car Mr. Pirate!!! I knew it was only a matter of time!!!!

 

[Peter Pirate]

Oh Landbaron...You know I'm not in your car, I could never be seen in a Crumudgeonmobile! Under the current scenerio I'm in car #2, but then I don't think anyone could pass muster of the silly litmus of car #1, that was accepted by the mods without a vote...

I am just able to look at the picture from each different perspective as it pops up. You see Eisner as bad, ergo current Disney bad, ergo everything new is bad (with some glaring exceptions that you normally point out go back to the Eisner/Wells days - Note: for some reason you didn't use the Wells mantra in your most recent debate with Scoop on the Saratoga thread ). Strange...

Just because I take issue with the decision to cancel a great show without announcing a replacement hardly means I've put away my rose colored glasses...Which BTW is a reference to the rather unkind portrayal of moi that you & Lesley shared in an earlier thread. I really shouldn't be talking to either of you...

As for MGM, I think they should be adding quality shows, not taking them away...

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Peter, you really do bust me up!!! And I agree that not many people get your sense of humor!! Anyway...

You see Eisner as bad, ergo current Disney bad, ergo everything new is bad (with some glaring exceptions that you normally point out go back to the Eisner/Wells days - Note: for some reason you didn't use the Wells mantra in your most recent debate with Scoop on the Saratoga thread ). Strange...

Nothing strange about it. I never held to that train of thought (one of the few areas where the frozen one and I disagree). I contend that Ei$ner has been inept from day one!! He was held in check by Wells, Katzenburg, etc. and the strength of the company made it very hard for him to destroy it overnight!! But it started downhill from the very first minute!! It just took a while to catch up with him!! Maybe CEO of Disney is his personal “PETER PRINCIPLE”!!

Which BTW is a reference to the rather unkind portrayal of moi that you & Lesley shared in an earlier thread. I really shouldn't be talking to either of you...

Peter!! I didn’t mean to offend!! If I apologize can we be friends again?

As for MGM, I think they should be adding quality shows, not taking them away...

Substitute WDW for MGM and you have my philosophy - EXACTLY!!!



APOLOGY TIME!!!!

Peter!! I sincerely apologize!! I am very, very sorry!! Really! I’m am very sorry that I pointed out your rose-colored-glasses to everyone on these Boards.

OK!! There!!! Friends again!!!????

 

[EUROPA]

I have to agree with about 99 % of what Baron and AV says not because I can't think for myself or I'm a follower but because they are right. I hold back that one percent when it comes to personal onions on some things. I think the Baron is right on about almost everyone of Esiner's decisions, they have been bad. If he did not have those strong creative and management types back covering his knife work in the early 90's he would have been long gone by now. There is no reason to close an attraction and not replace it with something of equal or grater show. I don't accept it and neither does Baron. There are some people here that do and I'm not sure why.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

There are some people here that do and I'm not sure why.

Something to do with the sun glasses they sell in the Keys (that rosey color, I suppose) and the drinking water in Tennessee!! (or maybe Law School muddles your brain!!)

 

[d-r]

Hey y'all,

I'm worn out and I don't want to get into anyone's arguments, but I do want to tell you my take on this, which is a little different than what I've read so far.

I don't think it is a matter of trading hunchback, tarzan, and 1/2 of tod for early entry. Actually, if I thought it was I'd get ticked, because I hardly ever used early entry (we have gone to mgm a couple of times early, but that's it I think, besides avoiding the EE park).

No, I think we are trading HOND for B&B. Right now, the shows do not run every day. If it were up to me, I'd keep it like that. I like the HOND show as much as BAB, and I think that by alternating them it gives guests a chance to see either or both with planning. But I am going to conceed the BAB is the more popular of the two with most guests. Think about it, BAB has a lot more broad appeal than HOND, plus the DVD is about to come out. For most guests, BAB would be the choice. It also seems to me that it is more economical to show one show every day than it is to have two shows on separate days - one crew, etc. If there is a budget crunch, this move makes sense to me, even if it isn't my preference.

There will still be one stretch of TOD, basically, this cuts it in half. I think that is a really good compromise, because guests who haven't seen it or want to see it still can. People were starting to grumble about TOD, and I've read several posts on the internet where people complained that it got in the way of visiting world showcase because the area wasn't set up well for a parade. Personally, I sort of liked it. I really liked TON a lot, but I always felt that TOD was sort of a cheap makeover, that wasn't actually as good as the original. TON began in Oct. of 1999 in the beginning of the mellinium celebration, so it has basically been going on now for 3 years. This seems like a good compromise to me as it phased out.

I'm not sure what we are "trading" Tarzan for. I can't imagine that it is a good thing to loose an attraction at AK. But I don't think it is a trade off for EE. I think the trade off for early entry is actually an earlier closing time. Personally, I'd rather have the hour in the evening and close later, but it is hard to market closing times or promote them as a perk for resort guests.

All in all, though, I think these were pretty good moves, along the lines of scoop's challenge - these are reasonable moves that fit with what the majority of guests probably want while balancing what is reasonably possible. Even if it isn't what I may have preferred personally, I think these are very good moves for the resort in general.

DR

 

[Bob O]

At this point wdw shouldnt be removing anything without a replacement to take its place right away. As matt said 20k is still empty and they still have attractions like Star Tours that are very dated and need to be replaced. They need to put back what was stupidly removed like EE and not remove attractions but need to be adding attractions if they want attendance to increase, to give people a reason to return. What a great pr campaign-Come back to wdw we are getting rid of our cutbacks(forget HB/TOD/)
So disney gives with one hand but takes away with the other so what could have been a total positive development is tarnished as maybe a break even deal when all is considered.

 

[wdhatter]

Just so you guys know, Tarzan is NOT confirmed to be closing. I haven't heard it around the Entertainment Department (while I have heard all the rest). Also, it is NOT mentioned on the press release from Disney that someone posted earlier. Hunchback was mentioned on it.

As for me, I'm very glad to see Hunchback go. I really didn't like the pacing of the show. Also, I'm surprised it's lasted this long to be quite honest. The movie didn't even gross $100 million at the box office, and to Disney, that's pretty much a major disappointment. The only reason why it's lived so long is that there hasn't been a decent musical movie made since to replace it. Mulan and Hercules while not awesome, went straight to a parade scenario instead of a show scenario.

Although I haven't heard anything as of now to replace Hunchback, I really can't see them keeping it empty for too long. They know there isn't much in that back section of the park to draw guests back there, so another show in there will help. Although, I can see them waiting at least until after the first of the year since the Osborne Lights will be up soon to get people back there until January.

 

[Planogirl]

I have a feeling that these shows would have closed or been cut back regardless of the fate of Early Entry. Disney regularly phases out old shows and attractions and always has, the difference being that they tend to stay shuttered now.

But I'm so glad that Early Entry is back! I will be looking into staying on site again because yes, it is that important to us. There is something of substance that once again sets staying on site apart from International Drive or Kissimmee.