To Infinity and Beyond - Becoming a Better DopeyBadger (Comments Welcome)

[DopeyBadger]

I am using the coaching services (just the Silver level), so I have a coach that I can contact at any time (and she schedules my training plans though Final Surge as well as calculates my training paces). They are also just starting an HCS Online Run Club that they are currently including for free if you use their coaching services. This seems very similar to what McMillan is doing with their Run Club. It's group coaching, including Luke contributing, and access to any of the Hansons training plans, plus a social community aspect with all the other HCS runners.

As far as the strength workout pacing here is the response I received from my coach (no real explanation):


The training plans are the same as in the books (besides the strength pacing I mentioned above), except you do have access to all of their plans if other plans make sense for you (higher mileage, 5k/10k, base building, etc.).

Interesting! Thanks for sharing. I'll be interested to get your feedback on them after a few months.

 

[dis_or_dat]

Wow, thank you so much @opusone and @DopeyBadger for the detailed training guides! I didn't need to buy the book! Haha! I'm excited to start running again, since I took this week off. I only get to run a little next week and then I'm off on vacation for a week.

Here's another question, I hope to run the Star Wars Light Side (possibly even the Rebel Challenge) in January and obviously don't plan on PR'ing since I want to take a lot of pictures.

I'd like to run a flat and fast half to try to hit 1:40, when do you think I should do this considering I would be training for the Star Wars one? I read theres a nearby half that's fast in February, but that would be less than 4 weeks after Star Wars. Hanson's is an 18 week program right? What if you're typically running about 30ish mpw with a long run of 10-11. Do you still start at the beginning? I think at the end of my recent half training, I was doing around 39 mpw with a long run of 13. I think I made a mistake in my training with running too slow most of the time with almost no speed/tempo stuff.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Wow, thank you so much @opusone and @DopeyBadger for the detailed training guides! I didn't need to buy the book! Haha! I'm excited to start running again, since I took this week off. I only get to run a little next week and then I'm off on vacation for a week.

Always happy to help!

Here's another question, I hope to run the Star Wars Light Side (possibly even the Rebel Challenge) in January and obviously don't plan on PR'ing since I want to take a lot of pictures.

I'd like to run a flat and fast half to try to hit 1:40, when do you think I should do this considering I would be training for the Star Wars one? I read theres a nearby half that's fast in February, but that would be less than 4 weeks after Star Wars.

I think you could do both the SWLS and your Feb half. The 4 week window is tight but doable. The key will be to keep it easy during SWLS as you plan on doing. I would maintain no faster than long run pace when in between pictures and no slower than Easy A. Diverging too far from either of these during the run could cause new issues.

My only hesitance is that doing SWLS will take a little bit away from your training. Typically, I like to do a fitness test about 5-6 weeks in advance of the race. However, maintaining an easy pace shouldn't hurt you, but it does remove a long training run so you don't gain the slight benefits from this weekend. Overall, though you should be fine with the rest of the training to compensate.

Hanson's is an 18 week program right?

I'd say your safe to start training for the Feb half 18 weeks in advance. That still gives you 14 weeks prior to SWLS which is plenty of time to be able to complete that as well. Key is even though this will be a flat fast course is still to incorporate a good system of hills into all your runs except the speed workouts. It will make you stronger.

What if you're typically running about 30ish mpw with a long run of 10-11. Do you still start at the beginning? I think at the end of my recent half training, I was doing around 39 mpw with a long run of 13. I think I made a mistake in my training with running too slow most of the time with almost no speed/tempo stuff.

I would match your weekly mileage into wherever that fits the plan. If the plan calls for 30, 33, 35, 37 in the first few weeks and you're already doing 39, then go ahead and just alternate between something like 34 and 39 the first few weeks. Key part of this is to make sure you're not adding any hard to the plan to get from 30 up to 39. All of the added miles to Hansons should be easy. Either as longer warmups before Speed or Tempo, or longer easy runs on Mon/Fri/Sat.

I think I made a mistake in my training with running too slow most of the time with almost no speed/tempo stuff.

Why do you think this is the case? Did something happen during your last race that suggested to you this is the case?

 

[dis_or_dat]

Why do you think this is the case? Did something happen during your last race that suggested to you this is the case?

I had no real training plan. I just wanted to slowly get up my mpw since I had heard the most important things were a high mpw and the long run. I ended up adding speed work (3 miles at 7:00 pace) 2 days a week because I didn't have time for running longer distances those days. After my first half I thought I only had 4 weeks to train (with 2 weekends gone on vacation i.e. my long run weekends) and so pushed myself into high mpw with only 1 day recovery. I ended up running almost 30 miles in 3 days (and sacrificed speed training) and I think I pushed myself into overtraining syndrome with insomnia, mild running injuries etc. I usually run based on feel and so I just ran my long slow easy runs on "feel" but saw that I was consistently running 9:30ish pace for anything 9miles+, whereas I was running about 9:10ish right before my first half.

My first half I felt great until mile 10 when I hit a huge wall. I never ran sub-8 for long distances before that and so never fueled/hydrated during my runs (I read it was better to train your body to not need it). I was having a great time until mile 10 and then my pace went up a whole minute. There were hills, so I think I ran a decent time considering.

I thought since Tink was very flat, I should be able to run a much faster time. I even got honey stingers and hydrated at the last few water stops. I didn't hit a wall or have an awful post run headache (which I had after my first half), but I did get a terrible foot cramp around mile 11. I've never had one before, do you think it was because I was pushing myself? I was pretty sore after Tink, but I read you don't have soreness using the Hanson's method because you're always running fatigued.

By the way, I read a women's focused running website and they JUST posted about the Hanson's method and a lot of them used it and loved it and shaved 5-15 min off their PR's (these are women who typically run 1:30 halfs, 3:00 fulls), so I'm excited to receive the book!

 

[opusone]

Here's another question, I hope to run the Star Wars Light Side (possibly even the Rebel Challenge) in January and obviously don't plan on PR'ing since I want to take a lot of pictures.

I'd like to run a flat and fast half to try to hit 1:40, when do you think I should do this considering I would be training for the Star Wars one? I read theres a nearby half that's fast in February, but that would be less than 4 weeks after Star Wars. Hanson's is an 18 week program right?

I think you could do both the SWLS and your Feb half. The 4 week window is tight but doable. The key will be to keep it easy during SWLS as you plan on doing. I would maintain no faster than long run pace when in between pictures and no slower than Easy A. Diverging too far from either of these during the run could cause new issues.

My only hesitance is that doing SWLS will take a little bit away from your training. Typically, I like to do a fitness test about 5-6 weeks in advance of the race. However, maintaining an easy pace shouldn't hurt you, but it does remove a long training run so you don't gain the slight benefits from this weekend. Overall, though you should be fine with the rest of the training to compensate.

I'd say your safe to start training for the Feb half 18 weeks in advance. That still gives you 14 weeks prior to SWLS which is plenty of time to be able to complete that as well.

Actually, if you plan on taking SWLS easy, then the Rebel Challenge will fit very nicely into your training plan, because four weeks prior to race day, with the Hansons Half Marathon Advanced plan, you are suppose to run 6 miles easy on Saturday followed by 14 miles long-easy on Sunday which matches almost perfectly with the Rebel Challenge distances. I agree with @DopeyBadger: schedule the 18-week program for your Feb half, then the 6-mile/14-mile training will naturally fall on your SWLS weekend, and then just take your Rebel Challenge pacing easy as training runs (try to maintain about 9:37/mi on the 10k and 8:58/mi for the half), and you will be perfectly on schedule to run a 1:40 half in February (assuming you've done all the other training per schedule).

 

[opusone]

I was pretty sore after Tink, but I read you don't have soreness using the Hanson's method because you're always running fatigued.

I wouldn't say "no soreness." After the SW Dark Side Challenge a month ago (the first time I used Hansons), I definitely was much less sore than any of my previous half marathons. In fact, I felt so good, it was tough to take two weeks recovery and just run a few easy runs. I wanted to jump right back in to a serious training plan, but I forced myself to take it easier than I wanted.

By the way, I read a women's focused running website and they JUST posted about the Hanson's method and a lot of them used it and loved it and shaved 5-15 min off their PR's (these are women who typically run 1:30 halfs, 3:00 fulls), so I'm excited to receive the book!

BTW, you keep mentioning that you ordered the book, but did you order the Hansons Marathon Method or the Hansons Half Marathon Method book?

 

[dis_or_dat]

BTW, you keep on mentioning that you ordered the book, but did you order the Hansons Marathon Method or the Hansons Half Marathon Method book?

I ordered the half book since I don't plan on running the marathon for years (I just don't have the time). I heard the half and full versions are pretty similar except the distances. I got the book on "no rush shipping" for the $1 credit. So it's suppose to come sometime next week. I would have borrowed it from the library, but none of the libraries in my county have it!

 

[opusone]

I ordered the half book since I don't plan on running the marathon for years (I just don't have the time). I heard the half and full versions are pretty similar except the distances. I got the book on "no rush shipping" for the $1 credit. So it's suppose to come sometime next week. I would have borrowed it from the library, but none of the libraries in my county have it!

Perfect. That's the same book that I read. The good news is that it will have the correct half marathon training plans. But... please be mindful (as @DopeyBadger explained to me when I got the half book) that for the half book, they basically took the full marathon book (v1) and modified it for the half. They definitely didn't catch everything when they modified it, so there are some weird marathon relics throughout, and they don't always explain the pacing table which is from the full book but doesn't exactly translate perfectly to half training pacing. In any case, feel free to ask me questions since I have made sense of (or at least peace with) the differences/unknowns.

With that, I am sorry for stealing your training journal @DopeyBadger.

 

[roxymama]

That's a lot of info to digest but sure shows how prepared you are! I like the idea of racing your BIL for that 10k while he does the 5k. I hope all the 5k middle of the packers (my people) make enough room for you to get by without to much dodging. Maybe visualize that while you are training so that you aren't annoyed or surprised by it. And as far as pacman chomping goes...do you get more pts for chomping a 10k person and like 1/2 pts for chomping a 5k or is it the reverse because the 10k people will be more tired?

Wishing you lots of luck on the prep for the Lakefront marathon. I've been to Milwaukee a bunch (used to intern in Waukesha a million years ago) and it is very scenic. I hope you get to run past the Calatrava sculpture (spelling?) when it has it's wings out.

My nutrition plan is nothing like yours with the detail, but I'm baby-stepping my way to being healthier and more mindful of nutrition intake with my running. So I look forward to seeing how everything goes for you

 

[DopeyBadger]

I had no real training plan. I just wanted to slowly get up my mpw since I had heard the most important things were a high mpw and the long run. I ended up adding speed work (3 miles at 7:00 pace) 2 days a week because I didn't have time for running longer distances those days. After my first half I thought I only had 4 weeks to train (with 2 weekends gone on vacation i.e. my long run weekends) and so pushed myself into high mpw with only 1 day recovery. I ended up running almost 30 miles in 3 days (and sacrificed speed training) and I think I pushed myself into overtraining syndrome with insomnia, mild running injuries etc. I usually run based on feel and so I just ran my long slow easy runs on "feel" but saw that I was consistently running 9:30ish pace for anything 9miles+, whereas I was running about 9:10ish right before my first half.

Yikes, yea that speed workout is super tough for someone with a 1:42 half. That's essentially your 5K PR twice per week. Do you mean that parts of the 3 miles were at 7:00 pace? Yea it sounds like too much too soon. Especially if I'm understanding correctly and you pushed hard in two halfs only separated by 4 weeks.

My first half I felt great until mile 10 when I hit a huge wall. I never ran sub-8 for long distances before that and so never fueled/hydrated during my runs (I read it was better to train your body to not need it). I was having a great time until mile 10 and then my pace went up a whole minute. There were hills, so I think I ran a decent time considering

My stance on fueling is to not do it on any training run less than 90 minutes. Anything over than 90 minutes has fueling. Although I've extended that window of time to as much as 100 minutes if the run finished at say 92 minutes (just because +/-2 min isn't really going to make a difference). The hydration though is key. You always want to make sure to practice that. Two good tests for hydration:

1) Weigh yourself pre and post run. If your weight is lower at post run by more than say 1.5 pounds you're really not drinking enough fluids. Most runs I come home and am equal weight to when I left (even on 100 degree days).

2) You should have the urge to go to the bathroom within about 30 minutes of finishing the workout. This one is a little looser, but having the urge to use the restroom soon enough getting home is a sign you're hydrated.

My guess though is the reason you started to lose your pace at the end was less likely fueling/hydration and more likely muscle fatigue. The body has enough fuel storages to run for about 2-2.5 hours without needing any fuel. The dependent factors are your metabolic efficiency, VO2max, and current weight. But almost no one who runs under 2/2.5 hours needs fuel when doing a half marathon. However, there is a caveat. If you don't come into the run fully tapered then you could come in with less than 100% storage. If you didn't have any dizziness or blurry vision, then it's likely (although there are other symptoms) that hydration wasn't the key factor either.

Most likely it was just perceived effort and muscle fatigue (endurance). Something like the Hansons plan will help greatly with this because it trains to run on fatigued muscles. I like the long distance intervals in Hansons because they allow fatigue to build in the muscles and then you teach your body to flush it out.

I thought since Tink was very flat, I should be able to run a much faster time. I even got honey stingers and hydrated at the last few water stops. I didn't hit a wall or have an awful post run headache (which I had after my first half), but I did get a terrible foot cramp around mile 11. I've never had one before, do you think it was because I was pushing myself? I was pretty sore after Tink, but I read you don't have soreness using the Hanson's method because you're always running fatigued.

The foot cramp is hard to say what caused it. Could have been a electrolyte balance? Could have been a shoe issue? Could have been that the course was too flat and you over extended one of your muscle groups?

Oh, you definitely have soreness after Hansons. I'd say the recovery is quicker, but it doesn't eliminate it. But what the plan is very good at is teaching your body the difference between tired and injured.

By the way, I read a women's focused running website and they JUST posted about the Hanson's method and a lot of them used it and loved it and shaved 5-15 min off their PR's (these are women who typically run 1:30 halfs, 3:00 fulls), so I'm excited to receive the book!

Yea, it's a highly successful plan. Stick to the paces (big importance) and stick to the mileage and you'll very likely do great. But it isn't easy. It takes a lot of hard work. Mostly because when you run six-days a week there isn't anywhere to shift runs to. And you're doing three tough workouts per 6 days. You'll just be fatigued all of the time towards the middle/end. But when you taper, you'll re-remind yourself of what feeling fresh really feels like. And then come race day, you fly!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Actually, if you plan on taking SWLS easy, then the Rebel Challenge will fit very nicely into your training plan, because four weeks prior to race day, with the Hansons Half Marathon Advanced plan, you are suppose to run 6 miles easy on Saturday followed by 14 miles long-easy on Sunday which matches almost perfectly with the Rebel Challenge distances. I agree with @DopeyBadger: schedule the 18-week program for your Feb half, then the 6-mile/14-mile training will naturally fall on your SWLS weekend, and then just take your Rebel Challenge pacing easy as training runs (try to maintain about 9:37/mi on the 10k and 8:58/mi for the half), and you will be perfectly on schedule to run a 1:40 half in February (assuming you've done all the other training per schedule).

Agreed. I didn't have the half plan in front of me, but it sounds like the SWLS Rebel Challenge is almost a perfect match.

Perfect. That's the same book that I read. The good news is that it will have the correct half marathon training plans. But... please be mindful (as @DopeyBadger explained to me when I got the half book) that for the half book, they basically took the full marathon book (v1) and modified it for the half. They definitely didn't catch everything when they modified it, so there are some weird marathon relics throughout, and they don't always explain the pacing table which is from the full book but doesn't exactly translate perfectly to half training pacing. In any case, feel free to ask me questions since I have made sense of (or at least peace with) the differences/unknowns.

With that, I am sorry for stealing your training journal @DopeyBadger.

Yea, it was disappointing when I read the Half book. I started with the Full book. I did the plan and had great success so my mom got the half book to try that. She was having a lot of difficulty figuring out what she was suppose to be doing and so she sent me her mock plan. A lot of things didnt make sense to me about what she came up with so I borrowed the book from her and read it myself. As @opusone said they essentially started with the Full book and then just edited it to become a half book. But there are parts of the half book that just don't make sense for a half plan. The thing that irritated me the most about it was the giant pace chart in the middle of the book. Smack in the middle is Marathon Tempo and Strength. No where to be seen is Half Marathon Tempo. And even worse the Strength was based on the Marathon paces not the Half paces. But if you look back in the Strength section discussing that type of workout it's based on the Half. If I remember correctly they had an asterisk statement at the bottom about "see sections" but still it seemed to me like an easy fix. Although, even with all of that said, it's a great book and great resource. Just don't allow the rampant references to the marathon get to you. Cause I know it got to me, especially because it massively confused my mom.

With that, I am sorry for stealing your training journal @DopeyBadger.

LOL! You are free to chime in whenever you'd like. Don't ever feel like you're stealing it. I value your opinion (and everyone else's for that matter). In fact, I enjoy when someone has a different opinion or approach to the same issue because sometimes looking at a problem differently allows for better solutions. So keep firing away!

That's a lot of info to digest but sure shows how prepared you are! I like the idea of racing your BIL for that 10k while he does the 5k. I hope all the 5k middle of the packers (my people) make enough room for you to get by without to much dodging. Maybe visualize that while you are training so that you aren't annoyed or surprised by it. And as far as pacman chomping goes...do you get more pts for chomping a 10k person and like 1/2 pts for chomping a 5k or is it the reverse because the 10k people will be more tired?

Thanks! I'm really trying to put all my chips on the table and go all in. Realistically this is probably my maximum plan. The only other things I could do are 7 days per week or double days. I can't do 7 days a week because I really do need to leave a weekday open for Gigi (dance this summer/swimming in the winter). And double days could be done but not really any other day than the weekends though. I treasure my sleep (getting 8+ is super important to me). If I have to choose between double days and sleep, sleep will win because in the end I think it benefits me more.

I like the idea of racing your BIL for that 10k while he does the 5k. I hope all the 5k middle of the packers (my people) make enough room for you to get by without to much dodging. Maybe visualize that while you are training so that you aren't annoyed or surprised by it. And as far as pacman chomping goes...do you get more pts for chomping a 10k person and like 1/2 pts for chomping a 5k or is it the reverse because the 10k people will be more tired?

It's something that occurred to me when I started researching this race. I saw that the 10K started 15 min before the 5K. My first thought was how open is the course for 10K'ers coming through the 5K'ers. Because my estimated finish time means that anyone slower than a 9:00 min/mile 5K is going to be passed by me. I went back and checked the pictures from last year and found a few from the leaders in the 10K. I was happy to see we're actually running on the road and not the sidewalk, so while slightly congested it appeared doable through the crowds.

I feel like your scoring system is spot on. Although if things go according to plan, I don't anticipate passing many 10K'ers unless they REALLY go out too fast. I won't be in peak shape (only 4 weeks of prior training) so my expectations aren't high for a time. I just felt like I needed to go out and defend my turf.

Wishing you lots of luck on the prep for the Lakefront marathon. I've been to Milwaukee a bunch (used to intern in Waukesha a million years ago) and it is very scenic. I hope you get to run past the Calatrava sculpture (spelling?) when it has it's wings out.

The Lakefront Marathon was beautiful last year. I really have it as my top marathon I've done. Obviously, breaking 4-hours means it holds a special place in my heart, but it really has everything I'm looking for. I can't speak to the sculpture because I don't know Milwaukee well at all. But it does finish in a park by an art museum, so it's possible I guess.

My nutrition plan is nothing like yours with the detail, but I'm baby-stepping my way to being healthier and more mindful of nutrition intake with my running. So I look forward to seeing how everything goes for you

It's one of those things where I'm trying to maximize as good as I can get. Running training is important. But the better you get the more little things you need to have on point to keep improving. Nutrition is something I knew I could make a dramatic change. I feel like it's made a huge difference. Once you start running a ton of mileage you have to be really careful that you're not under-eating because then you're just wasting your time training. You'll be surviving the training rather than thriving because of it.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Yikes, yea the speed workout is super tough for someone with a 1:42 half. That's essentially your 5K PR twice per week. Do you mean that parts of the 3 miles were at 7:00 pace? Yea it sounds like too much too soon. Especially if I'm understanding correctly and you pushed hard in two halfs only separated by 4 weeks.



My stance on fueling is to not do it on any training run less than 90 minutes. Anything over than 90 minutes has fueling. Although I've extended that window of time to as much as 100 minutes if the run finished at say 92 minutes (just because +/-2 min isn't really going to make a difference). The hydration though is key. You always want to make sure to practice that. Two good tests for hydration:

1) Weigh yourself pre and post run. If your weight is lower at post run by more than say 1.5 pounds you're really not drinking enough fluids. Most runs I come home and am equal weight to when I left (even on 100 degree days).

2) You should have the urge to go to the bathroom within about 30 minutes of finishing the workout. This one is a little looser, but having the urge to use the restroom soon enough getting home is a sign you're hydrated.

My guess though is the reason you started to lose your pace at the end was less likely fueling/hydration and more likely muscle fatigue. The body has enough fuel storages to run for about 2-2.5 hours without needing any fuel. The dependent factors are your metabolic efficiency, VO2max, and current weight. But almost no one who runs under 2/2.5 hours needs fuel when doing a half marathon. However, there is a caveat. If you don't come into the run fully tapered then you could come in with less than 100% storage. If you didn't have any dizziness or blurry vision, then it's likely (although there are other symptoms) that hydration wasn't the key factor either.

Most likely it was just perceived effort and muscle fatigue (endurance). Something like the Hansons plan will help greatly with this because it trains to run on fatigued muscles. I like the long distance intervals in Hansons because they allow fatigue to build in the muscles and then you teach your body to flush it out.



The foot cramp is hard to say what caused it. Could have been a electrolyte balance? Could have been a shoe issue? Could have been that the course was too flat and you over extended one of your muscle groups?

Oh, you definitely have soreness after Hansons. I'd say the recovery is quicker, but it doesn't eliminate it. But what the plan is very good at is teaching your body the difference between tired and injured.



Yea, it's a highly successful plan. Stick to the paces (big importance) and stick to the mileage and you'll very likely do great. But it isn't easy. It takes a lot of hard work. Mostly because when you run six-days a week there isn't anywhere to shift runs to. And you're doing three tough workouts per 6 days. You'll just be fatigued all of the time towards the middle/end. But when you taper, you'll re-remind yourself of what feeling fresh really feels like. And then come race day, you fly!

@dis_or_dat

So I just wanted to expand on these concepts because I got a little rushed finishing this up.

Speed workouts in general are not too tough for anyone. It was the possibility of you doing a 7:00 min/mile for 3 consecutive miles as a workout that I saw as super tough. One thing that's super important with speed work (and everything faster than marathon pace) is there needs to be a warm-up/cool-down. The warm-up is critical because there are two energy systems (aerobic and anaerobic). Both work in a continuous spectrum, but in general aerobic energy is when you run slower and anaerobic is when you run faster. Aerobic is more efficient and thus better than anaerobic. But here's the catch. It takes about 6 minutes for the aerobic energy system to get started. What does that mean then? Well, if you don't warm-up and start running a 7:00 min/mile then you'll immediately start using the anaerobic energy system before the aerobic even turns on. You'll burn through energy faster and it will diminish the benefits of the workout later in the miles because of the burst of overuse. This is true for racing too. That's one reason why it's suggested to start slower in a race (or even warm-up prior). The cool-down is important because it helps teach your body to run on fatigued muscle tissue.

Here's my view on the necessity of speed work. When you look at a race equivalency chart do you see your 5K/10Ks as faster than your predicted Half/Full or vice versa. In almost all cases people have slower Half/Fulls then their 5K/10Ks predict. If that's true then you likely need more endurance work. However, there are some that have a faster Half/Full, then their 5K/10K would predict. This is the person I would recommend a training cycle of speed work to. They need to learn concepts of cadence and running form through speed work to improve their Half/Full times further.

I view 90 minutes as a golden threshold for endurance running training. It's long enough to maximize benefits, but short enough that you can recover before the next run ~24 hrs later. A similar thing can be said for energy storage in the muscles. 90 min is long enough to teach the muscles to run on fat not carbs, but short enough that you'll regain enough energy to do the next 90 minute workout. However, as you start to pass the 90 min threshold you start to diminish your storage of energy past a level that can't be replenished before the next workout. Thus, you use fuel on runs longer than 90. If you want to maximize fat burning potential then you can do depletion training (no carbs prior to running or during running). But you need to be careful with depletion training because it can be dangerous if not done properly. That be said, unless you move to marathon training, then depletion training isn't something you'd need to worry about.

But what happens if you use fuel on runs less than 90? Well the body never learns to run on fat. Fat is abundant but can only be burned when the body is in a happy place. The more the body becomes stressed the more it relies on carbs as a fuel source. If you give it carbs during all of your runs, then the body never learns how it has to burn fat. So when you then run a longer distance race, the body starts to crash after 90 minutes because less efficient fat burning and it starts to run low on carb storage.

So what about racing? If you plan on racing to a 1:42 (barely above the 90 minute limit) do you need to take in gels? Well, I'd say do what you want. I personally take gels in for halfs because I feel it gives me a short mental boost. I know though that it has little effect on allowing me to run for longer. But I do love the flavors, and so Boom I fly. The key though is regardless of carbs you still need to probably take some sodium/potassium and thus either gels/powerade/nuun need to be the source of that.

 

[dis_or_dat]

Thanks for all the advice @DopeyBadger - you're basically acting as my coach! In fact, I was considering getting one, but then I bought the Hanson's book.

To address some of your points. On certain days, I can only run while my son naps, and they can be short naps! So that's when I bang out 3 miles and I do them at 7:00 pace. This is on a treadmill, so it's not as tough as outside (actually, I do 6:58 pace). I found it gave me a nice break from running 6-13 mile runs. It's usually not an issue and if I think he'll sleep longer, I'll walk for 1 minute before running. Before I started training for my half (and he was taking longer naps), I used to run 5 miles at a 7:15-7:30 pace 4 days a week.

So I ran slow because I heard it was best to have high MPW, but slow, otherwise they were considered "junk miles".

This was my typical training for my first half (I probably did this for about 5-6 months, slowly increasing my long runs), with no real training plan:
M: 3 miles, 7:00 pace
T: 8 miles, slow (typically 9:15ish) - edited to add, just looked at Strava and it said I was running closer to 8:45
W: 3 miles, 7:00 pace
Th: 6 miles, slow (typically 9:10ish) - ETA: Strava says 8:36ish
F: 1 mile slow at an incline
Sat: long slow run (10-13 miles) - 9:10ish pace
Sunday: rest

(an aside: my pace went up 30 seconds after my half)

Tuesdays and Thursdays, I only have about 90 min total to run and I like to stretch and take a shower and with drive time, I'm cutting it close. I have done 10 miles on those days, but they're not relaxed! That's why 8 miles is generally my max.

Regarding fueling: I never eat in the mornings (except coffee) and try to wait until after a run. I do drink A LOT of water. Typically I need to use the bathroom multiple times before a run. If I misjudge and drink too much water before my long run, I will have to use it in the middle. But I do always have to use it after I get home. Usually multiple times. Sorry if TMI!

I also read that you shouldn't need to fuel for a half and that's why I never trained with fuel.

I was trying to find out what the difference was between "hitting the wall" and a general "fade" and it seems that perhaps hitting the wall is fueling and fade is fitness? Someone said hitting a wall is like there's a disconnect between your head and legs and they feel like cement and cannot move any faster and you hit an emotional nadir. That was pretty much me during my first half, during which I skipped all water stations and didn't fuel. I was pretty down afterwards and actually didn't want to race again even though I did better than expected (1:43:54). Versus a fade where you feel sore and tired.

I wonder if I got too used running slow? My mind wanders a lot especially listening to podcasts and during the residential sections at Tink, my mind started wandering too and I noticed my pace would slow. I guess that's what tempo runs are for! I have no idea what tempo runs are! haha! Can't wait to find out! And strides and x400s and fartleks.

Anyways, sorry for peppering you with questions. Thanks to you and @opusone for the "real" pace calculations and all the advice!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Thanks for all the advice @DopeyBadger - you're basically acting as my coach! In fact, I was considering getting one, but then I bought the Hanson's book.

Always happy to help. I'm by no means a replacement for a good coach as they have a ton more real life experience than I do. However, part of my goal is to become as knowledgeable about running as I can in order to maximize my performance. I have a few athletes on this message board that I help and a few others I know personally. No charge, as I just do it as a hobby, and in an effort to help others reach their goals.

To address some of your points. On certain days, I can only run while my son naps, and they can be short naps! So that's when I bang out 3 miles and I do them at 7:00 pace. This is on a treadmill, so it's not as tough as outside (actually, I do 6:58 pace). I found it gave me a nice break from running 6-13 mile runs. It's usually not an issue and if I think he'll sleep longer, I'll walk for 1 minute before running. Before I started training for my half (and he was taking longer naps), I used to run 5 miles at a 7:15-7:30 pace 4 days a week.

Wow, again those workouts (3 mi @ 7:00 and 5 mi @ 7:15) are super tough for someone with your PRs. Not withstanding the treadmill obviously helps some. How recent are your 5K and 10K PRs compared to when you ran this last half? Because these workouts are near those race paces. Two possible reasons why:

1) Treadmill isn't calibrated appropriately? Maybe the treadmill thinks it's going that fast but isn't. You can do a chalk test to verify it. It's likely not the issue though.
2) Your PRs aren't reflective of your true capability. My guess is even with a slight adjustment for treadmill running your training suggests your PRs should be faster. In fact your 10K PR says you should be able to run a 1:41 and your 5K a 1:44. My guess is you haven't run a recent 5K/10K or the conditions of the PR race weren't good.

So, my understanding of training and mixing up your workouts is this. It takes time for the muscles a) to recover and b) to adapt to training. Different paces work different sets of muscles. By varying your pacing in a given week (or time period) it allows for different muscle groups to be stimulated. It allows them to recover before the next workout and allows them to become stronger. When you work the same muscle groups too soon to each other (like M & W at 7:00 pace) then you dampen the adaptation. It doesn't allow enough recovery time for the muscle group and it moves into the survive not thrive area of the constant workouts. It means you'll keep being able to do the training workout, but when it comes to race day you won't be able to do more. Each muscle group takes different amounts of time to recover and reap adaptations. The Hansons plan has very good balance.

So I ran slow because I heard it was best to have high MPW, but slow, otherwise they were considered "junk miles".

This was my typical training for my first half (I probably did this for about 5-6 months, slowly increasing my long runs), with no real training plan:
M: 3 miles, 7:00 pace
T: 8 miles, slow (typically 9:15ish) - edited to add, just looked at Strava and it said I was running closer to 8:45
W: 3 miles, 7:00 pace
Th: 6 miles, slow (typically 9:10ish) - ETA: Strava says 8:36ish
F: 1 mile slow at an incline
Sat: long slow run (10-13 miles) - 9:10ish pace
Sunday: rest

(an aside: my pace went up 30 seconds after my half)

The way I look at it is you want balance. After reading this article (http://www.sportsci.org/2009/ss.htm) by Stephen Seiler I settled on the idea of 80% Easy and 20% Hard. For someone attempting to run a 1:40 half, that means 80% of the time you spend training should be at 8:47 or slower. Anything at around 8:47 for an extended period of time is considered a "long run" and is a something of substance (SOS). In a 5-day a week plan you should have maybe 2-3 SOS and the rest easy. In the above structured plan, you've got 4 SOS and 1 easy. However, the paces and time spent training have you more at a 63% easy and 37% hard. So this isn't too bad. Just a few adjustments slower and you'd have it nailed. The overall mileage balance isn't too far off either with 33%-39% of your longest training run accounting of the total mileage (10-13 mile long run). The one thing I definitely change is the two 3 mi @ 7:00 pace to two different workouts both around 21 minutes but with slightly different pacing.

However, here's the big snag with this plan. It works the faster end of the slow spectrum (slow spectrum = 9:07-9:47) and the fastest end of the fast spectrum (fast spectrum = 7:07-7:25), but nothing in between where you actually wanted your paces to end up for your race. Arthur Lydiard (famed coach from New Zealand) introduced the concept of periodization and specialization. It was found that spending about 8-10 weeks on any system would maximize the benefits received from them (periodization) and that the closer you got to race day the more you wanted your paces to converge near your desired race pace (specialization). This means that in the beginning of an 18-week training cycle have a speed session for a few weeks and some slower paces. As you move closer to race day your speed paces get slower and you spend more time near race pace. This trains multiple muscle groups and allows the body to learn the final desired pace. The Hansons plan is very good at this.

My guess is that your body is/was trashed and could be an explanation for why your pace has gone up (as in slower?) recently. Again it goes back to survive and not thrive. Your body isn't responding to the training because it's tired. Although you might not feel tired, your body still can be.

Tuesdays and Thursdays, I only have about 90 min total to run and I like to stretch and take a shower and with drive time, I'm cutting it close. I have done 10 miles on those days, but they're not relaxed! That's why 8 miles is generally my max.

I will never argue with someone whose got time for a 90 min weekday run. That's perfect for an endurance runner. If you can get at least 3-4 90 min workouts per week, you are well on your way to maximizing your potential.

Regarding fueling: I never eat in the mornings (except coffee) and try to wait until after a run. I do drink A LOT of water. Typically I need to use the bathroom multiple times before a run. If I misjudge and drink too much water before my long run, I will have to use it in the middle. But I do always have to use it after I get home. Usually multiple times. Sorry if TMI!

As far as the drinking of liquids, for me I've found I have to wait 2 hours after consuming liquids to not worry about using the restroom. Anything consumed within 2 hours puts me in the danger zone of whether I'll make it.

But the more important part is the fueling (or food consumption). You can get away with not eating before runs (it saves time, I agree, but not ideal) as long as the run doesn't exceed 90 min (that's when you start to get into depletion training). But you need to be extra diligent about consuming food VERY soon after getting home. By consuming something like chocolate milk (4:1 carb/protein ratio, amino acids, high bioavailable protein, etc.) you actually recover faster and teach your body about storing more energy. The chocolate milk consumption should be done within 15 minutes after finishing. It doesn't have to be chocolate milk though, there are other options. Chocolate milk is just cheap and easy. The other timeframe is a full meal within 90 minutes. If you aren't doing these two things you should consider adding it to your routine as they are extremely beneficial.

I also read that you shouldn't need to fuel for a half and that's why I never trained with fuel.

It's a true statement. You don't have to take any gels or do any carb loading procedure before a half when you're attempting to finish it in a 1:40. Any gels or carb loading will be more mental than actually physically helpful.

I was trying to find out what the difference was between "hitting the wall" and a general "fade" and it seems that perhaps hitting the wall is fueling and fade is fitness? Someone said hitting a wall is like there's a disconnect between your head and legs and they feel like cement and cannot move any faster and you hit an emotional nadir. That was pretty much me during my first half, during which I skipped all water stations and didn't fuel. I was pretty down afterwards and actually didn't want to race again even though I did better than expected (1:43:54). Versus a fade where you feel sore and tired.

Your description of the wall and what you experienced sounds spot on, but again it was likely just an endurance thing. Unless you came into the run in a non-tapered state and your energy storage wasn't near 100%, I'd be surprised if you actually hit the wall. Were you paying attention to your splits during the race? Were you getting emotional and re-assessing goals as you saw your splits get slower? If yes, it's likely you lost some of you motivation. The Psychobiological Model (my attempt at explaining it) of running states that losing one's motivation can be a dampener to results because it increases your perceived effort through nothing physical and purely mental. It's possible this is what you experienced. I know for me beginning to run blind to pace and running by effort has reduced a lot of negative thoughts I had during races. I attribute this mental change to a lot of my current success.

I wonder if I got too used running slow? My mind wanders a lot especially listening to podcasts and during the residential sections at Tink, my mind started wandering too and I noticed my pace would slow. I guess that's what tempo runs are for! I have no idea what tempo runs are! haha! Can't wait to find out! And strides and x400s and fartleks.

Anyways, sorry for peppering you with questions. Thanks to you and @opusone for the "real" pace calculations and all the advice!

After reading all about you and what you've done in previous training I feel as if you are going to flourish with the Hansons training. I would not be surprised if you did two Hansons cycle (one prior to starting Feb Half training and one for the Feb half itself) that your Half time would be closer to 1:30 than 1:40 in Feb 2017. I think the Speed intervals and Strength intervals are where you are going to make the most gains. Having those brief periods of time where you go easy in between hard bouts will teach you body to be more efficient at clearing the fatigue from your muscles. I feel as if this is the one area you'll see the most improvement in.

But for the Hansons training to work you have to buy into it. When they say go slow, go slow. When they say go fast, go fast. For me I try and keep all of my intervals within +/- 5 seconds (for Speed and Strength) or +/- 10 seconds (for Easy, Tempo, and Long run). This means if I'm scheduled to do a HM Tempo of 1.5 mi warm-up + 5 miles @ Tempo + 1.5 mi cool-down, then I try and hit each of the 5 miles @ Tempo @ 7:37-7:57 (using your pacing as example). If mile 1 of tempo is 8:10, I don't try and compensate by doing mile 2 at 7:24 to try and get the overall average down to 7:47. If mile 1 is 8:10, then mile 2 is 7:47, mile 3 is 7:47, etc. Sacrifice only one mile off goal zone, rather than compensating and sacrificing two miles off goal zone.

If you've got more questions keep asking away. I'm always happy to help. Especially, because in the end my answers are here to help you, but they're also here for anyone else reading this and has the same questions for themselves.

 

[opusone]

As usual, @DopeyBadger has great words of wisdom! He has done a lot of research as well as confirmed what does and does not work based on his personal experience, so definitely ask if something he said doesn't make sense to you.

I guess that's what tempo runs are for! I have no idea what tempo runs are! haha! Can't wait to find out!

As far as tempo runs, I just want to clarify that "tempo" doesn't really mean one specific thing. Each training plan seems to have a different definition of what a tempo run is. Many training plans use the word "tempo" to describe their lactate threshold runs. However, the Hansons plans use "tempo" to describe race pace runs (HMP for half, MP for full), and "strength" to describe their lactate threshold workouts.

 

[dis_or_dat]

So many wise words @DopeyBadger ! I ran 45:17 in October and I would say that was the first and only time I ever ran "all out", probably because I was surrounded by middle school and high school kids! I was surprised by my pace and wasn't sure if I could keep it up and definitely faded a little near the end. I will say I purposely ran fast so I could get a good POT for Tink. I ran 7:17 pace for 5 miles in February as a lark because my son was waiting for me at the end of the trail so I ran fast to finish up quickly.

I do feel I messed up my taper because I freaked out about the hills on my first half. I ended up running 15 miles in Hawaii with no water (very light headed and seeing stars and could barely stagger straight afterwards) about 10 days before the race, and then 5 the next day, and then 10. I think I ran every day the week leading up to the race including hills, but at a slow pace and no more than 5 miles each day. I did rest the day before. I think the week before Tink I ran every day except the 2 days before Tink, but no more than 5 miles/day. Although I think I did a 3 mile run at 7:00. It's hard because I don't put my treadmill runs on Strava/Runkeeper. Obviously I don't much about tapers, so I'm looking forward to reading what Hanson says!

As mentioned previously, I don't do long sub-8 runs so I get nervous during halfs at that pace (I've only ever run 3 races including the 10k). I always want something "in the bank" so I don't want to RUN. But I still hit that wall at mile 10. It was weird, like I was all smiles and waving and high-fiving, and then at mile 10, it became a grind.

Here are the breakdowns:
5k- 7:41, 6.4mi - 7:32, 10mi - 7:48, overall: 7:56 (hilly race)

Tink:
5k- 7:45, 10k - 7:41, 15k - 7:47? (1:12:35), overall: 7:49 (flat race)

Looks like I start too fast. I try to keep at 8:30ish for my first mile. Hmmmm....

Anyways, so sorry for usurping your thread! You've been so helpful!!! I will definitely go over the book and your (and @opusone 's advice) very carefully once I start training!

 

[DopeyBadger]

So many wise words @DopeyBadger ! I ran 45:17 in October and I would say that was the first and only time I ever ran "all out", probably because I was surrounded by middle school and high school kids! I was surprised by my pace and wasn't sure if I could keep it up and definitely faded a little near the end. I will say I purposely ran fast so I could get a good POT for Tink. I ran 7:17 pace for 5 miles in February as a lark because my son was waiting for me at the end of the trail so I ran fast to finish up quickly.

Thanks! I can totally understand. Middle/High schoolers are notoriously fast starters.

I do feel I messed up my taper because I freaked out about the hills on my first half. I ended up running 15 miles in Hawaii with no water (very light headed and seeing stars and could barely stagger straight afterwards) about 10 days before the race, and then 5 the next day, and then 10. I think I ran every day the week leading up to the race including hills, but at a slow pace and no more than 5 miles each day. I did rest the day before. I think the week before Tink I ran every day except the 2 days before Tink, but no more than 5 miles/day. Although I think I did a 3 mile run at 7:00. It's hard because I don't put my treadmill runs on Strava/Runkeeper. Obviously I don't much about tapers, so I'm looking forward to reading what Hanson says!

I like the Hansons taper system because to me it's well grounded in science. I've read a few meta analysis scientific journal papers on tapering and the Hansons plan almost fits the recommendation perfectly. Their system has worked really well for me because I always feel fresh day of. The only change I make is doing some surges (up to marathon/half pace) during my last run the day before the event. It's good to remind the body a race is coming the next day. If the surges are 10-30 seconds in length they won't add any fatigue for the race the next day.

As mentioned previously, I don't do long sub-8 runs so I get nervous during halfs at that pace (I've only ever run 3 races including the 10k). I always want something "in the bank" so I don't want to RUN. But I still hit that wall at mile 10. It was weird, like I was all smiles and waving and high-fiving, and then at mile 10, it became a grind.

I get it now. Are you fairly new to running in general, especially longer races like 5K/10K/Halfs? Endurance training is a very long term thing, The gains are seen over months and years unlike shorter distance racing which gains can be seen very quickly. My guess is if you're times are where they are now you are just scratching the surface. You could do a VO2max test (try this resting heart rate based test: http://www.shapesense.com/fitness-exercise/calculators/vo2max-calculator.aspx). It isn't the end all be all measurement but another tool to see what your potential can be. Do the RHR right in the morning after you wake and just lay there for 2 minutes. Then count for 60 seconds. The calculation uses a 20-sec split so just divide your beats by 3. The higher the number the better (again not end-all be all but a good tool).

Here are the breakdowns:
5k- 7:41, 6.4mi - 7:32, 10mi - 7:48, overall: 7:56 (hilly race)

Tink:
5k- 7:45, 10k - 7:41, 15k - 7:47? (1:12:35), overall: 7:49 (flat race)

Looks like I start too fast. I try to keep at 8:30ish for my first mile. Hmmmm....

Interesting, so you're saying your splits are:



If I am understanding your splits correctly, then this is what I come up with. I'd agree that if your first mile is ~8:30 and then 5K split is average 7:45 (then miles 1-3.1 are done at 7:24). That's a huge downward jump in pace and dramatic punch to the system (especially that early in the race and that close to 10K PR pace). This probably started the flooding of fatigue by-product into the leg muscle system. By the time you came to mile 10 you were starting to feel the effects of the build-up. I think Hansons will help with this because it will teach you more about running with effort. My suggestion between now and your Feb 2017 half is to get some more race experience because it will help you learn what you can and can't do in a race. You can always treat a training run as a race a few times a year to save a few bucks.

If you aren't already make sure you are doing a warm-up the morning before the race. Preferably within 15-60 minutes of the event and only about a mile for a half marathon. A few surges can be done during this warm-up as well but not necessary. For a 5K/10K the warm-up is longer (2-4 miles) and surges are a definite must. I'd say your first mile (if 8:30) is too slow actually and then you're overcompensating at miles 1-3.1 (7:24). Hansons will do wonders in teaching you pacing.

Anyways, so sorry for usurping your thread! You've been so helpful!!! I will definitely go over the book and your (and @opusone 's advice) very carefully once I start training!

LOL!

I'm being honest that you can keep usurping (had to look this word up ) all you want. My training journal is a place where I say what I'm doing, but also a place where people are free to ask me as many questions as you want. It's the best place to give my in-depth answers because in the normal RunDisney forum it just becomes a giant wall of text. LOL! Really, I don't mind I like helping. Once you get the book let me and @opusone know if you've got more questions.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Finally got around to updating my time board! I think it's almost time to start a 3rd board. I think I know what the next training phrase will be.

 

[dis_or_dat]

Wow, thanks for the uplifting comments about my potential! I did run 3 funrun 5ks 3-4 years ago, but just to be goofy (no pun intended). I started really training when someone I knew offered to sell me her 2015 Nike Half bib and I thought it was crazy to run 13 miles. But then I tried to run 8 miles to see how I felt and then thought I might be able to run a half! Also, I'm a little competitive, so when she ran the Nike in 2 hours, I also wanted to run my half in 2 hours. Anyways, I've only had 3 races since then. It will be hard for me to run races so I like the idea of using a training run as a race!

Ack, I was just using the race website results breakdowns, but here's what my runkeeper says about the first half (my garmin didn't pick up for about half a mile). This is the race I hit my "wall" at mile 10:
1 mi - 8:32 - climb: 169
2 mi - 7:37 - climb: 25
3 mi - 7:08 - climb: -106
4 mi - 8:16 - climb: 129
5 mi - 7:49 - climb: 237
6 mi - 7:37 - climb: 103
7 mi - 7:42 - climb: 103
8 mi - 7:45 - climb: 3
9 mi - 7:11 - climb: 5
10 mi - 7:51 - climb: 6
11 mi - 7:53 - climb: 23
12 mi - 8:43 - climb: 128
13 mi - 8:20 - climb: -49

This is what my garmin said about Tink. I ran more consistently but still faded (I think due to my incorrect training beforehand) and also had some honey stingers around mile 8 to prevent the wall. I looked pretty relaxed according to my photopass pictures and waved and smiled throughout the race, totally different than the other half where I was grimacing after mile 10:
1 - 7:55.3
2 - 7:41.3
3 - 7:45.9
4 - 7:49.1
5 - 7:38.1
6 - 7:44.6
7 - 7:53.3
8 - 7:53.5
9 - 7:45.4
10 - 8:00.7
11 - 7:45.6 (my foot started cramping around here)
12 - 7:59.6
13 - 7:34.3

Can't wait to try out the RHR!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Wow, thanks for the uplifting comments about my potential! I did run 3 funrun 5ks 3-4 years ago, but just to be goofy (no pun intended). I started really training when someone I knew offered to sell me her 2015 Nike Half bib and I thought it was crazy to run 13 miles. But then I tried to run 8 miles to see how I felt and then thought I might be able to run a half! Also, I'm a little competitive, so when she ran the Nike in 2 hours, I also wanted to run my half in 2 hours. Anyways, I've only had 3 races since then. It will be hard for me to run races so I like the idea of using a training run as a race!

Ack, I was just using the race website results breakdowns, but here's what my runkeeper says about the first half (my garmin didn't pick up for about half a mile). This is the race I hit my "wall" at mile 10:
1 mi - 8:32 - climb: 169
2 mi - 7:37 - climb: 25
3 mi - 7:08 - climb: -106
4 mi - 8:16 - climb: 129
5 mi - 7:49 - climb: 237
6 mi - 7:37 - climb: 103
7 mi - 7:42 - climb: 103
8 mi - 7:45 - climb: 3
9 mi - 7:11 - climb: 5
10 mi - 7:51 - climb: 6
11 mi - 7:53 - climb: 23
12 mi - 8:43 - climb: 128
13 mi - 8:20 - climb: -49

This is what my garmin said about Tink. I ran more consistently but still faded (I think due to my incorrect training beforehand) and also had some honey stingers around mile 8 to prevent the wall. I looked pretty relaxed according to my photopass pictures and waved and smiled throughout the race, totally different than the other half where I was grimacing after mile 10:
1 - 7:55.3
2 - 7:41.3
3 - 7:45.9
4 - 7:49.1
5 - 7:38.1
6 - 7:44.6
7 - 7:53.3
8 - 7:53.5
9 - 7:45.4
10 - 8:00.7
11 - 7:45.6 (my foot started cramping around here)
12 - 7:59.6
13 - 7:34.3

Can't wait to try out the RHR!

Yea, that's quite a bit of hills on the first half. Depending on how they're spread out within the miles you probably had some really steep uphills. Based on this and your paces, I think you actually did quite well. Same goes for the second run. The paces don't seem to slip much at all to me. Yea, the run got harder after mile 10 but that just means you're right where you want to be. More endurance training will do wonders for your times.

Here are my splits for my PR half in December. This was also only 9 weeks after my Oct marathon and 7 weeks worth of Hansons training for Dopey. During the Oct marathon, I set a half PR in the second half of the race of 1:46:00. This just goes to show how quickly you can get dramatic improvements with their method. An 8-min half improvement in 9 weeks. I also ran a solo half in August in ~1:47 (course was short so my time is estimated here as higher) during my first Hansons cycle.



This non-tapered half in the middle of Dopey training was a PR for 1000K, 1 mile, 5K, and 10K. Granted I haven't run many shorter distance races, but still I was blown away.

So when I say you could see massive improvements using Hansons, I speak from experience and from what I see in your history.