The EpiPen that cost $75 in 2001 costs over $300 today

[mom2rtk]

My only issue with things like this, and this is less political and much more about morality....No one in this country should ever have to pay a bill or go into debt because they needed to have their lives saved after eating a peanut...as stated before, the idea that our healthcare system at any level is a "for profit" enterprise is ridiculous!.

I agree with you on a theoretical level. But on a practical level, it's a whole other matter.

Our country is on the verge of a serious issue with social security and medicare already. How do you propose we pay for "insurance for all"?

 

[gmboy95]

I agree with you on a theoretical level. But on a practical level, it's a whole other matter.

Our country is on the verge of a serious issue with social security and medicare already. How do you propose we pay for "insurance for all"?

what people dont realize is that we all already pay private "for profit" insurance companies extremely high premiums, so they can cover $600 epi pens and still make a profit. I would much rather pay a lesser rate in taxes (no more premiums), take private insurance and employers out of the healthcare game....create a not for profit model across the board. Implement price controls (which is why medication in Canada costs a quarter what it costs here for the same exact pill), and join the rest of the industrialized world by guaranteeing healthcare AND a social safety net for seniors.....i believe in scoreboards. the USA has a lower life expectancy then just about every other country that has national healthcare. In my book that is how you rate a healthcare system. How long folks actually live. So in the united states right now, we have folks that have severe allergies, that require an epi pen quite a bit....so in this country they could be the 10% that doesn't have health insurance. So because of something they were born with, they can now have a bill for tens of thousands of dollars??..

 

[mom2rtk]

what people dont realize is that we all already pay private "for profit" insurance companies extremely high premiums, so they can cover $600 epi pens and still make a profit. I would much rather pay a lesser rate in taxes (no more premiums), take private insurance and employers out of the healthcare game....create a not for profit model across the board. Implement price controls (which is why medication in Canada costs a quarter what it costs here for the same exact pill), and join the rest of the industrialized world by guaranteeing healthcare AND a social safety net for seniors.....i believe in scoreboards. the USA has a lower life expectancy then just about every other country that has national healthcare. In my book that is how you rate a healthcare system. How long folks actually live. So in the united states right now, we have folks that have severe allergies, that require an epi pen quite a bit....so in this country they could be the 10% that doesn't have health insurance. So because of something they were born with, they can now have a bill for tens of thousands of dollars??..

But can't everyone get health insurance already? I thought we marked that one off the list already.

I don't want to be in the position of defending the insurance industry, because there is plenty in that industry, right along with the health care delivery system to criticize. But I don't think insurance companies have quite as large a profit margin as you think.

 

[gmboy95]

The issue we have in helath insuarnce is just like student loans....the more kids and parents can borrow, the more the schools jack up the tuition.....so the more drug companies can jack up the price of medication, the more health insurance companies jack up premiums...its a viscous circle....I have always said that if we passed a law tomorrow that the total debt a student AND their parents could take on to pay tuition per year is capped at $10,000, watch how quickly tuition falls throughout the country....same goes for healthcare. If insurance companies had to run as non profits and caps were placed on prices of medication and medical devices...premiums would come down

 

[gmboy95]

But can't everyone get health insurance already? I thought we marked that one off the list already.

I don't want to be in the position of defending the insurance industry, because there is plenty in that industry, right along with the health care delivery system to criticize. But I don't think insurance companies have quite as large a profit margin as you think.

in Massachusetts we have 99% coverage....but in states that did not accept the expanded medicaid coverage their is still wide swaths of people that cannot.....and what makes the law imperfect is that it STILL has private for profit insurance companies as its base component and not a "public option", and does NOT provide price controls on medications and devices

 

[gmboy95]

But can't everyone get health insurance already? I thought we marked that one off the list already.

I don't want to be in the position of defending the insurance industry, because there is plenty in that industry, right along with the health care delivery system to criticize. But I don't think insurance companies have quite as large a profit margin as you think.

I would tend to by the profit argument, if the CEO of the epi pen company didnt earn $19 million last year alone.....in a not for profit insurance model CEO's would make more in the range of say the guy who runs the united way or Red Cross, a million a year

 

[mnrose]

But can't everyone get health insurance already? I thought we marked that one off the list already.

I don't want to be in the position of defending the insurance industry, because there is plenty in that industry, right along with the health care delivery system to criticize. But I don't think insurance companies have quite as large a profit margin as you think.

Of course "profit" is figured AFTER they pay their executives. Take a look at that figure, and I bet you'll be surprised how well paid they are for an industry that supposedly doesn't make much money. Executive salaries ARE part of the problem.

 

[mom2rtk]

I would tend to by the profit argument, if the CEO of the epi pen company didnt earn $19 million last year alone.....in a not for profit insurance model CEO's would make more in the range of say the guy who runs the united way or Red Cross, a million a year

Of course "profit" is figured AFTER they pay their executives. Take a look at that figure, and I bet you'll be surprised how well paid they are for an industry that supposedly doesn't make much money. Executive salaries ARE part of the problem.

I'm not going to defend executive salaries. It's sort of indefensible. But I just don't think fixing this one issue is enough to solve the problem in the greater scheme of things. Just like I don't think a government program could be established without a huge amount of waste and fraud expense.

 

[Geoff_M]

If insurance companies had to run as non profits and caps were placed on prices of medication and medical devices...premiums would come down

One small problem with that notion... many insurance companies and a large number of HMOs are not-for-profits already (including many Blue Cross/Blue Shield member companies... such as our state's).

 

[bcla]

One small problem with that notion... many insurance companies and a large number of HMOs are not-for-profits already (including many Blue Cross/Blue Shield member companies... such as our state's).

The largest member of the Blue Cross Blue Shield Association is for-profit.

 

[bcla]

My only issue with things like this, and this is less political and much more about morality....No one in this country should ever have to pay a bill or go into debt because they needed to have their lives saved after eating a peanut...as stated before, the idea that our healthcare system at any level is a "for profit" enterprise is ridiculous!.

Even where there may be a socialized health care system, the drug manufacturers are private companies out to make a profit.

The real irony with the EpiPen is that we're really not talking about the cost of a lifesaving drug. The drug itself is over 100 years old and cheap. It's how it's delivered in an easy to use package that's expensive. This piece talks about pre-filled syringes that are stored for less than 3 months. They use a pen barrel around the plunger to prevent premature ejection of the drug.

http://www.wildmedcenter.com/uploads/5/9/8/2/5982510/epinephrine.pdf

There's one company that's trying to sell a pre-filled traditional syringe, but the FDA hasn't approved it yet. It looks pretty simple, but certainly not as easy as using an EpiPen. Still - I've heard of people pointing an EpiPen in the wrong direction and getting stabbed in the thumb.

https://globenewswire.com/news-rele...f-Its-Epinephrine-Pre-Filled-Syringe-NDA.html
http://www.adamispharmaceuticals.com/pipeline/epinephrine-pfs/

Apparently the only version currently on the market in the US is a 10 ml syringe that dispenses 1 mg using a 3.5 inch needle. I think this is was the "adrenaline shot" that was portrayed in Pulp Fiction. It's meant for shooting directly into the heart and puts out a lot of epinephrine.

 

[JaxDad]

We had to carry Atropine Sulfate injectors in the military back in the day for potential chemical warfare attacks. Luckily I never had to use one, but they seemed simple though likely painful (the needle was pretty big). Of course, the military probably paid a gazillion dollars per injector and would have considered $300 a bargain...


I had to edit the photo. I uploaded the wrong one originally...

 

[mom2rtk]

We had to carry Atropine Sulfate injectors in the military back in the day for potential chemical warfare attacks. Luckily I never had to use one, but they seemed simple though likely painful (the needle was pretty big). Of course, the military probably paid a gazillion dollars per injector and would have considered $300 a bargain...

That's part of the reason I'm skeptical putting everyone on a government provided plan would be any less expensive.

 

[Geoff_M]

The largest member of the Blue Cross Blue Shield Association is for-profit.

So it is. That's why I used the word "many" in reference to BCBS. Additionally all insurance plans of the largest managed care organization in the country, Kaiser Permanente, are non-profit. The non-profit state associations of BCBS and Kaiser are not alone by the long shot. In our state four of the biggest health insurance plans are non-profit (BCBS, MESSA, HAP, and Priority Health). My point is that there already is plenty of non-profit influence on the pricing of health insurance in this country.

The real irony with the EpiPen is that we're really not talking about the cost of a lifesaving drug. The drug itself is over 100 years old and cheap. It's how it's delivered in an easy to use package that's expensive.

Yep, that's that makes the difference. For example, last year in Canada a competitor product to EpiPen, Sanofi's Allerject, was pulled off the market because it was found to often deliver inaccurate doses to those that used it. Also, as a side note, EpiPen isn't sold in Canada by Mylan, it's sold by Pfizer.

 

[kimblebee]

That's part of the reason I'm skeptical putting everyone on a government provided plan would be any less expensive.

Believe me, peace of mind is worth every penny. In the past week, and in the next month or so I have to have...4 blood tests, a TB test, an EKG, an MRI, a pelvic exam, two regular dr visits, a neurologist visit AND a visit with his nurse. I don't have to pay a penny for any of it. Yes, I pay higher taxes but that's the way it's always been so it's not out of the ordinary for me. I can't even imagine how much it would cost to have to actually pay for all these tests and services...and this is all just in preparation for a treatment that puts me in the hospital 8 hours a day for 5 days and requires 5 years of follow up because the drug is so new.

 

[bcla]

So it is. That's why I used the word "many" in reference to BCBS. Additionally all insurance plans of the largest managed care organizations in the country, Kaiser Permanente, are non-profit. The non-profit state associations of BCBS and Kaiser are not alone by the long shot. In our state four of the biggest health insurance plans are non-profit (BCBS, MESSA, HAP, and Priority Health). My point is that there already is plenty of non-profit influence on the pricing of health insurance in this country.

Well - Anthem was really the merger of a bunch of non-profit BLBS, which were taken for-profit. Kaiser Permanente is a bit of a different model, as they operate their own hospitals and work hard keeping their members using their facilities. My dad is was a Kaiser member and I remember when he was in an ICU at another private hospital (due to bed availability) they moved his ASAP when a Kaiser bed became available.

We've had a few fairly large non-profit health insurers in California go out of business.

http://www.centerforhealthjournalism.org/fellowships/projects/fallout-failed-health-insurer

 

[robinb]

We had to carry Atropine Sulfate injectors in the military back in the day for potential chemical warfare attacks. Luckily I never had to use one, but they seemed simple though likely painful (the needle was pretty big). Of course, the military probably paid a gazillion dollars per injector and would have considered $300 a bargain...
View attachment 190005

I had to edit the photo. I uploaded the wrong one originally...

From what I've read, the EpiPen is the same technology so taxpayers already paid for the R&D that Mylan owns.

 

[bcla]

We had to carry Atropine Sulfate injectors in the military back in the day for potential chemical warfare attacks. Luckily I never had to use one, but they seemed simple though likely painful (the needle was pretty big). Of course, the military probably paid a gazillion dollars per injector and would have considered $300 a bargain...
View attachment 190005

I had to edit the photo. I uploaded the wrong one originally...

The technology is pretty common. I don't believe it's even under patent. However, I'm pretty sure the regulatory process involves each manufacturer having to demonstrate that their version works and delivers the proper dosage. Even the company I found that's trying to get a traditional syringe approved is having issues.

 

[mom2rtk]

Believe me, peace of mind is worth every penny. In the past week, and in the next month or so I have to have...4 blood tests, a TB test, an EKG, an MRI, a pelvic exam, two regular dr visits, a neurologist visit AND a visit with his nurse. I don't have to pay a penny for any of it. Yes, I pay higher taxes but that's the way it's always been so it's not out of the ordinary for me. I can't even imagine how much it would cost to have to actually pay for all these tests and services...and this is all just in preparation for a treatment that puts me in the hospital 8 hours a day for 5 days and requires 5 years of follow up because the drug is so new.

But if the funding isn't there, it isn't there.

 

[kimblebee]

But if the funding isn't there, it isn't there.

It's all about priorities..