Seven Dwarfs Mine Train Progresses with Major Concrete Pour

Discussion in 'Disney Rumors and News' started by Rumors Rocks, Apr 3, 2013.

  1. lockedoutlogic

    lockedoutlogic DIS Veteran

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    what he said...

    though the disney hotels don't experience the "slow season" as they did in years past...travel domestically isn't confined to christmas and memorial day through labor day...and obviously international travelers have no fear of traveling to orlando whenever it suits them...which between western europe and central/south america covers the calendar fairly well...
     
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  3. jade1

    jade1 If your lucky enough to live on the lake, your luc

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    Exactly my point-if its full all the time now at $200 to $500 a night-what would happen at $75 a night? The moot point is why on earth argue rates are too high at a place always packed?
     
  4. lockedoutlogic

    lockedoutlogic DIS Veteran

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    I addressed that...the market is allowing them to do it...

    BUT...the market is not always right. as Tootall posted: the service level should justify the price and disney doesn't even come close. but they benefit from the fact that they've created their own world where they can define what's "reasonable" within a vacuum of their own creation.

    but it's not perfect...the four seasons project is more than just selling land for a quick buck and attracting some new money to the interior of the WDW property - at least in my opinion. its an admonishment that disney is in the meat market business when it comes to hotels...not the service business.

    basically..the Grand is not so "grand"

    trust me on that. hence the need for four seasons.

    that doesn't mean that you or i aren't getting ripped off. no question we are...but WDW consumers don't have the stones to stand up for themselves because of flow of the masses.
     
  5. DRDISNEYMD

    DRDISNEYMD *+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+* *+*~The Snow Queen~*+* ~A gi

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    ~Excellent post! In part, I tend to agree with you, but I must refrain from judging those who depend on Free Dining. I don't think it's fair to question a family as to why they need free dining, or why they need a vacation. I was just in a thread not too long ago, with posters who honestly depend on free dining. Hopefully, someone will come across your post & maybe sit down and do the math. I like the Dining Plan for the convenience factor, but it's becoming less and less of a convenience for me, I never use all the meals and snacks, and I don't use refillable mugs, I just like the all inclusive feel.

    ~Regarding EMH, I visit WDW for just one week in August -- OMG, it is so HOT! I just love my fun & fabulous August nights! And, on departure day -- morning EMH is golden!

    ~LOL. Yeah right, this would have never happened if I was there -- it's so unfair, okay not really. :( But, the thread wasn't too bad, so I'm going to assume some of the more offensive posts were removed before locking, lol. Anyway, it's the pirate's fault & I caught his sneaky "mediocre" comment -- he never rests. pirate:

    ~Exactly! That's why all the surf & turf is gone from the 1 TS options. I swear the old free dining brought out the worst in people, on both sides. During the glory days of the dining plan, there was a server that kindly informed me that I was not using the dining plan "efficiently," because I didn't order the most expensive filet, or an appetizer or a dessert, she said it was a waste. And, she was right, but in the coming years Disney swiftly took care of that problem! :rotfl:

    ~But yeah, to get back "on track" I just can't wait for the mine train! :cool1:
     
  6. jade1

    jade1 If your lucky enough to live on the lake, your luc

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    The mine train taking so long to build reduces the chances of one time or occasional visitors being able to enjoy it. The high prices of WDW hotels is a large contributor to this issue-I agree with that.

    Where we seem to disagree is either the resorts are too expensive, not enough luxury to justify the expense or both correct?

    I would step back and ask what your solution would be if in charge?

    1) Would you simply slash the rates?

    2) Would you tear each resort down and build a Four Seasons on all 27 sites?

    3) And if rebuilt to that high quality-what would you charge then? The same/less/more?

    I am a WDW consumer that thinks my trips/stays there are worth every penny. The full resorts leads me to believe I'm not alone.
     
  7. DCTooTall

    DCTooTall <MARQUEE BEHAVIOR=ALTERNATE><img src=http://www.em

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    I know I'm not the poster of the exact message you posted.... but I'll give my $.02 on this...

    I don't think there is a simple solution that would fit across all the Disney Resorts. In general, Simply slashing the rates wouldn't really work because of the supply/demand issues.... but it could work in combination with other items.

    As for tearing down the existing resorts to build 4 seasons? honestly.... No. Disney did a decent job with building and theming the resorts, and there is nothing saying that Disney couldn't augment the service and offerings at the current resorts without needing a major rebuild or refurb.

    ultimately.... Improving the service for onsite guests would be relatively inexpensive. There is absolutely no reason that Disney couldn't make some relatively simple changes to the resorts that would provide a service level that is much more fitting of the prices they charge. It might cut into their profit levels a bit, but you honestly can't tell me that they aren't pulling a HUGE profit margin off the room rates currently. If nothing more.... Hold back a small number of the ADRs at the Deluxe hotels from central reservations. That would give a chance for those who are actually staying at the hotel to maybe get into their resorts dining options if the mood strikes them... If they don't want to deal with walk-up issues, maybe a smaller 3 day ADR option for those held back seatings that the front desk or concierge could arrange for hotel guests. There is still a chance for walk-ups to fill out those restaurants if they want. Again..... simple thing they can do, but would add a real value and more luxurious feel for those who stay at those resorts.


    As I've mentioned before, I don't have a problem with Disney charging a premium for their hotels/resorts based off the added theming, location, package delivery, and transportation perks. But there is no way that those perks are worth $400/night which is what Disney seems to currently think they are worth. It wouldn't take much though for Disney to actually improve the hotel's service levels and the way they treat their onsite guests at those hotels to make the "Disney Premium" be a much more reasonable amount.
     
  8. lockedoutlogic

    lockedoutlogic DIS Veteran

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    Ok...i'll play

    The hotels (and that's all they are) are both too expensive and don't provide enough service for the cost...

    this is predominantly an assessment of the deluxes...which are solid/nice but at a ritz/four seasons price level. and those names charge you for service...not a monorail that they are letting fall apart and a view that while nice doesn't equate to a significant daily upcharge. This used to be restricted to some of the locations...as there were more reasonable pricing at a few of them - particularly AKL and WL...but they took care of that with ten years of price increases targeted specifically at correcting that.

    moderates are a complete screw job...their prices are exhorbinant for what amounts to almost the same service level as the values at nearly double the price.

    the values i'm actually the most comfortable with...they are pricier than I-Drive or 192...but they are also kept to a much better standard for the value you spend.

    and that's another part of the problem...(and i should remind/preface this by saying that i did work in the management at wdw hotels)...the standards are basically uniform...as in your $400 rooms, pools, bathrooms, kitchens are the exact same in treatment and more importantly level of skill, education, and expertise of the staff as the $109 ones. That's up to a persons opinion as to if that's a "good" thing or a "bad". My take is that its bad...or more accurately - not reflective of the value.


    And as to your other questions: It's not really necessary to answer because i'm not looking for or suggesting a "solution".

    On a ideological level - we are all overcharged for our WDW rooms. but the reality is that there is plenty of demand for the rooms and people enjoy them. That doesn't nor will ever change that they are not receiving their rooms rate worth of tangible services (how much value do you place on bus service to downtown disney?...where they want you 24/7 while you're there anyway...whether you want to be there or not) from disney hotels.

    But it's not a "problem" that needs fixing. It's just a case of the rich getting richer and robbing the customers...which is pretty much the "american way" of business these days...if you think about it.

    sorry for the hijack...we waaaayyyy off dwarves now:stir:
     
  9. jade1

    jade1 If your lucky enough to live on the lake, your luc

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    If this was a fact-they wouldn't be full. So the "guests" are the ones that "seem" to think they are worth it. Plus Mods and Values are there for folks that refuse the higher rates.

    I am all for better "service" whenever possible, but your response does nothing to address that higher prices are what keeps many folks from multiple trips, and able to see the mine train when complete.
     
  10. jade1

    jade1 If your lucky enough to live on the lake, your luc

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    And your evidence of this is......? Again, they wouldn't be full if this was a fact.

    Why? Certainly your not just complaining.

    Not really-it was about the expense keeping folks away b4 its complete.
     
  11. jade1

    jade1 If your lucky enough to live on the lake, your luc

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    I do agree its simple demand, but they created that and the success is hard to argue with.

    Bottom line-if there's a way to drop prices, increase services, increase quality, not increase attendance, not suffer on profits for expansion/improvements/upkeep etc-I will be all for it.
     
  12. DCTooTall

    DCTooTall <MARQUEE BEHAVIOR=ALTERNATE><img src=http://www.em

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    There are multiple factors at play here though on why they are so full. One of them is simply brainwashing.... or those who are looking for a one-stop-shop or are scared of ending up in one of the MANY cheap and run-down type hotels offsite. Even though I feel Disney Overcharges, at least there is the comfort of knowing that you aren't going to end up in someplace that you would be worried about catching something in your room or your personal safety after dark.

    I think one of the biggest pluses on the arguement that the onsite hotels are overpriced, is the growth of DVC and the growing number of people you can see around the DIS who are looking at potential offisite options because Disney has outpriced them. Remember that WDW's demographics skew dramatically towards the first time visitor, or those who haven't visited in YEARS. It's quite easy to fill a large number of the rooms onsite with just those guests... people who haven't experience a Disney onsite room before and therefore don't have a personal experience to base their value judgement on.

    DVC? I can see it's biggest sales aid being the increasing price of staying onsite. for those who enjoy going to disney on a regular basis and need/want that onsite experience, DVC is almost a no brainer. It's expensive, but ultimately they are likely to get a nicer room than what they'd get for the same amount of money elsewhere onsite.

    And then there are the DIS people looking offsite. People saying that Disney has simply outpriced them and they need a cheaper option. IMHO, This can be taken in 2 ways.... those who literally can't afford Disney's exponential rack rate increases..... or those who can no longer justify the cost to perceived value received equation..


    Ok.... So let's take a look at that... shall we?

    From the US Census.... http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

    Median Household Income.... $52,762
    Average persons per household.... 2.6. Let's go ahead and bump that up to 3 since the "average" Disney guest is going to be a family unit, so we'll assume 2 parents and a kid for this assumption.

    From the Bureau of Labor Statistics, http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesan.nr0.htm We have some different numbers....


    Income before Taxes: $63,685
    Persons in each "consumer" unit: 2.5 (we'll bump to 3 for the same reasons above)

    And Average Annual Expenditures for your everyday non-vacation expenses.... $49,705

    Using a generic tax calculator... http://us.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php That would be about $57,034 take home annually for a married couple filing jointly with 1 dependent.


    So THAT will leave us exactly $7329 for the year in "extra" money to spend on things like a vacation to Disney.... and any extras not covered by the "average Annual Expenditures" in the Bureau of Labor Statistic numbers. (Gonna assume things like student loans, extra retirement savings, any major purchases needed, etc).

    So let's hit Disney's website to price out this Vacation. I'm saying the child is 7 (so it still falls under child rates), and putting the Vacation in mid August (school aged, so limited to summer break).

    from August 11-17 in the all Star music (cheapest option available onsite.) We are doing a 5 day parkhopper (one per day, and an extra day to rehit favorites), and water park and more (a day at the water park, and extra stuff maybe on arrival or departure day).... QS DDP..... $2193

    so... 7,329 - 2193 = $5136 left.

    Out of that $5000, You would need to get 3 round trip plane tickets to Orlando [which can vary greatly depending upon where this average family is located], figure out the budget for souvenirs and other extras such as maybe add a Table Service meal or two [character dining], Adult beverages, etc.... and still have the money available to put towards savings or other expenses needed for real life.


    The reality is, It is EXTREMELY easy to spend over $3k or $4k on a Disney Trip.


    When your "Average" family is having to spend a large percentage or "all" of their discretionary income for the year on a single Disney Trip because of the higher costs of staying there, getting there, etc.... Then it becomes much harder for them to plan multiple trips to see the different stages of the new Fantasyland opening. It also means they have to start planning for the trip a lot further in advance in order to save the money needed for the trip. [so delays... like the extra year for the mine train to open after the advertised new Fantasyland opening become a much bigger deal.]
     
  13. jade1

    jade1 If your lucky enough to live on the lake, your luc

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    So maybe give WDW some credit for this option? Regardless the other Deluxe rooms are still more expensive than ever, so if they are filling-they are priced correctly.





    Totally agree-my point was your reply I quoted, did nothing to offer lower prices, and what the new rates should be.

    Unless I missed it below:

     
  14. DCTooTall

    DCTooTall <MARQUEE BEHAVIOR=ALTERNATE><img src=http://www.em

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    Oh, I totally understand the appeal of DVC. My only problem with it is the way Disney has been treating it lately and the negative impact it's starting to have on the resort.

    My issue with DVC these days is primarily on how Disney is becoming obsessed with the idea of just adding DVC wings to existing hotels. As a result, these new DVC accommodations are dramatically increasing the capacity of these hotel and the demand upon their infrastructure and amenities, But are not really adding anything back to the hotel to help offset the increased load. The most obvious impact is going to be transportation related. As a general rule, DVC wings are only being added to Deluxe resorts. Part of the selling point "perks" for a majority of the Deluxe Resorts is the unique transportation option to it's "host" theme park. The Monorail for the Monorail Resorts. Watercraft for Wilderness Lodge and the EPCOT Resorts... etc. DVC is adding to the demand for transportation at these Deluxe resorts since they are sharing the hotel's amenties, But DVC is not contributing in any way to increasing the capacity of the transportation system, or even in any other real noticable way to the resort to help offset the impact to the non-DVC Guests.

    Part of this could be due to the way everything is set up financially. But the end result is that you are not seeing any of the money DVC is spending for these new DVC projects, or the profit made from selling the new inventory, Being spent to improve, repair, augment, or replace the Monorail or Watercraft transportation systems.

    All this may end up being great for the DVC Owner, some of who may have been people who are now getting to stay at the Deluxe resorts instead of the Value's they used to stay at..... But it's a really crappy deal for the person paying hundred per night for the "Deluxe" experience.


    Ah. fair enough.

    The thing for me is that I'm not totally against Disney charging more for different categories of accommodations..... As long as there are legitimate things you get to justify the increased costs. When i can stay at the Pop Century for $151 a night, or go just up the street to the Boardwalk for $400 a night, I can't say that location of the Boardwalk, the inside hallways, or few small little extras you get are truly worth the $250/night price difference.

    I also understand supply/demand, and therefore there is something to be said about keeping price points around where they are to help manage capacity.

    But if they are going to charge that much more for a room, You gotta give me something more for it to justify it.
     
  15. jade1

    jade1 If your lucky enough to live on the lake, your luc

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    :thumbsup2
     
  16. lockedoutlogic

    lockedoutlogic DIS Veteran

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    I'm watching this one like a tennis match (and too tired to form a decent argument...not my finest thread:rolleyes: )...

    good back and forth.


    just one thing about the whole dvc being a good/bad deal for everyone involved. it is.

    there is no reinvestment in the resort unless you see what they did at contemporary prior to the construction of bay lake: which was basically an elaborate rehab that in the end only ended up with the same things in different places. they gained a much larger chef mickeys (what they wanted all along)...we lost the concourse steakhouse (which was far better than 90% of the crud you can get in WDW now) and lost when the "wave" rolled in.

    so even that "investment" for dvc was totally self serving and detrimental.

    but no dvc funds go towards the stress it puts on the system. while they put in a new pool and a bar and restaurants only if theres NO way around it (case in point the recent "addition" to saratoga and sanaa at the overbuilt kidani village)...the common areas are just strained with several thousand more sets of hands and feet each day.

    but that's the point...the dvc partially or maybe significantly pays for the upfront costs of construction and upkeep (i don't know if that's ever been released but i would think about 50% of those costs are probably a good ballpark guess)...and guarantees ticket sales, dining plan sales, and most importantly and the ultimate goal: out of pocket money for gift shop crap.

    and that's where it all comes back. not "enhancing" the deluxe experience...squeezing it.

    but we aren't looking at an isolated case.

    the dining plan too...the same goal...upfront money long since departed - out of pocket money straight to giftshop crap.

    the "disney decade" of building the "all inclusive experience" to keep people out of orlando?
    same deal...guarantees giftshop crap.

    that's where the money is made. i hate to always have to come back and harp on this...but the giftshop is the "rosetta stone" to all decisions in the modern (last 20 years) WDW...it can't be overstated. if you look at any question as to what's good/bad...and why they do/don't do things...you can find the hidden (or in some cases obvious) truths by starting at how the move in question affects you as a shopper. all roads lead back to Roma.

    and i hope they throw whatever they are gonna throw up at the poly fast...
    not just because i can stay there for a significant discount (some of the number estimates here are actually way too conservative in regards to savings...the cost of the maintenance dues are always overstated and if the point system is used wisely/effectively...the savings off rack are large and have gotten better over time when compared to the price increases)...

    but after they are gonna be fresh outta deluxes at WDW and are gonna have an issue.

    they are not going to stop building DVC until they overflow capacity and the free standing ones have not done "great"...contrary to what disney would tell you. saratoga alone is a 10,000 word case study.

    so what happens then? bay lake tower south? wilderness lodge villas annex? the Nantucket Villas at Disney's Yacht Club Resort (former site of convention center parking lot)?

    then we'll all KNOW that we've been collectively screwed. because the money gleamed off this is much bigger than we as the public are being told/can track.

    And as far as why i think disney hotels are overpriced..at least deluxes?
    It's not a question of the microeconomic supply and demand curve...any chimp can follow that...its a little more in depth.
    There is a lodging "industry" that has an established set of standards...just like any other trade that has evolved over time. disney does not adhere to them specifically in service. they do somethings well...but some others are laughable. Four Seasons, Ritz Carlton, Westin, Marriot, Hyatt, Loews to name a few.

    you can't hire "deluxe" or "luxury" service staff at minimum wage out of a centralized hiring office. you can't have open transfers to anyone regardless of history into front line service positions in "luxury" hotels after a year due to mass union contracts. you can't have a "concierge" who's only "abilities" are to book restaurants, recreation, or programs out of a public centralized system that is first come first serve without discrimination (sad but true), you can't have company policy not to accommodate any requests that extend beyond your property line, actually...you can't call disney "concierge" by that name -it is in no way

    Not at $500 a night. no matter how cool the views are or how detailed an imagineer made the lobby casework 25 years ago.
    it just simply shouldn't be done.

    and that's where the problem lies. just because they sell the rooms and get away with it...doesn't mean they aren't making fools of themselves and committing a foul.

    and it's not even "complaining"...its recognition that some things are black and white even if the worlds ruled by the grey. they sell the rooms, they increase the prices every year, they have followed a pattern of reducing services and amenities as opposed to adding them for quite sometime now...but they still sell. there is no need for change from a business standpoint nor and realistic consequences evident for continuing that course.

    But doesn't mean that the end justifies the means. i can tell you that there services are not up to snuff based on practical experience, observations, and other "expert" opinions when it comes to this. it has enough validity to be the truth. but that doesn't mean i'm gonna "win you over to my side" or even are attempting to. just saying it how it comes.

    we do this all the time...especially in politics...many arguments framed as "two sided" are not at all. there is a common sense right and an obvious wrong. but the "debate" continues to a stalemate or in some case the ridiculous "side" wins the day and sometimes easily.

    just how it be...but truth is truth.:teacher:
     
  17. jade1

    jade1 If your lucky enough to live on the lake, your luc

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    Its just more of the same (except for adding a DP and Gift shop discussion :confused3), as for making it more affordable so folks can make multiple visits and SEE THE MINE TRAIN COMPLETE-the only item that did make things more affordable was the DVC discussion, which puts "several thousand more sets of hands and feet each day" and should be stopped immediately.

    As for Deluxe-I just spent 10 days at BWI and it was incredible, and one of our best stays at WDW.

     
  18. skylizard

    skylizard DIS Veteran

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    :thumbsup2

    I don't understand why people would think that Disney would just give something away for free, especially something as expensive as dining. They are making you pay for it some how. You just don't realize it.
     
  19. DCTooTall

    DCTooTall <MARQUEE BEHAVIOR=ALTERNATE><img src=http://www.em

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    The worst part is that dining quality has decreased while costs have greatly increased, and it can be tracked back to the growth of the DDP. Food costs bumped up artificially in order to help support the idea that the DDP is a good value.
     
  20. mcd2745

    mcd2745 These Mickey pretzels are making me thirsty!

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    Just curious...those of you (mainly Locked Out, DCToo) who have mentioned lack of services at the resorts - deluxes in particular - exactly what type of services are you looking for? One of you mentioned holding back ADRs for guests staying at that resort, and that's fine. But what else?

    I agree that overall, WDW resort prices are borderline ridiculous. however, I attribute the premium to those things already mentioned - location, package delivery, transportation, ME, etc.

    It's probably just who I am, but I don't look for some hotel staff member to wait on me hand and foot. I'm the type who prefers to do things for myself. Just as an example, on Long Island, there are these 'Dairy Barn' stores. They're basically a chain of small drive-through only grocery stores (that look like little red barns). You tell the person what you want...milk, egss, whatever. The worker gets them and bags them and gives them to you and you never get out of your car. I know plenty of people who love it. I hate the idea and have never went to one. I like to pick out my own products, thank you very much. And my mentality doesn't really change when on vacation.
     
  21. beer dave

    beer dave Master of the obvious

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    Don't resist ---- you must assimilate.
     

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