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Seems size does count!

Very interesting read. Crew training for emergencies is critical and it's a scary to think the crew is not prepared or have the proper tools to deal with emergencies. I would also think that at some point the size of the ship would at some point create problems for everyone (passengers, ports, crew, maintence, etc). On some of these mega ships I often wondered how efficently they can get these thousands of passengers on the lifeboats.
 
I read the article then went back and reread the article. Theres a few things that strike me about the article.
First, it almost seems like a pot stirring article on a real slow news day.
Second, the writer might want to go back and check a few facts. For 1, the last time I looked, a Nimitz class carrier, is no where near 225000 tons. The heaviest is still under 200000 tons the last time I looked. My cousin was stationed on 1 until recently. The heaviest is about 1100000 tons. Lengthwise maybe close to the same, but not displacement.

From a different standpoint, theres a few things that the writer seemed to miss. He talked with a few people who are concerned, but never really talked with builders and designers. Or fire suppression manufacturers whos equipment is on ships. Or the heads of security for cruiselines.

In someways, I do think that safety as a whole hasnt caught up with the size of ships today, in someways. However, theres a lot of things that are built into ships, that the average guest will never notice.

Security for 1. While security of a ship is still one of the most important considerations on a ship, in a lot of ways, ships are like mainland casinos. Youre being watched almost wherever you go. Theres probably hundreds if not thousands of cameras, both hidden and in plain view. I remember a bridge tour on the Magic where the security office was open, and there was a bank of cameras that was constantly monitored. What happens when an issue is observed, is a matter of debate. I do know that when my wife fell on the deck of the Wonder in 09, while we were walking the deck going towards the buffet, a ships security officer was next to us within a minute or so. Followed by the CD.

Fire safety. Most if not all cruiselines have their crews trained in multiple disciplines. A waiter for example might double as a lifeboat evacuation attendant. I talked briefly last week with a bartender, on the Fantasy, who was a fire team leader. I didnt get a chance to go back and talk to him though I definitely would love to. Another thing to look at is the current trend in SOLAS, is to build a ship with fire resistive and fireproof materials. Making fires harder to start and continue to burn is a really good thing. Another trend is the spinklerization of ships. There sprinklers everywhere. They are designed to put out a given amount of water over a given amount of area, after activation. (btw, hanging your laundry on a sprinkler is bad. If you knock the link or disc out, water will flow) When functioning properly, they will hold a fire in check if not put it out. Smoke detectors, while a pita for fire crews, are becoming more reliable. I know of at least 1 person who took a really hot shower, and got a call from the ships security office asking if everything was alright in the room. Apparently, she set off a heat detector. There is an unknown, and I wish that that article was printed 2 weeks ago before I went on the Fantasy, because I would have asked on board to find an answer.Otherwise, there are standpipes and FDCs all over the ship. I have a habit of looking for them.

Ill leave the Concordia alone. That horse has been beat to an unrecognizable pulp.

The Splendor. What a lot of people dont know, and was not made common knowledge, is that there was a lot of balls dropped, long before that fire ever started. Anyone of them, could have lessened if not stopped the fire long before the power was cut to the entire ship.

GOS. From what I have seen, the fire crew onboard did an outstanding job stopping that fire at sea with no help from shoreside crews. I would love to see the after action report on that fire.
When a fire starts in a steel ship, heat builds up, and will continue to build up until long after the fire is out and lots of water is poured on the affected areas. Heat will travel and start fires in other unaffected areas of a ship. Like the crew areas above the deck where the fire apparently started. Or it could have dropped a deck also. Venting and extracting smoke and heat is even more problematic. Where shoreside, literally hundreds of firefighters can be called, and continue to arrive, in a short period of time,

The only real issues that I can see as far as safety at sea, whether the ship is the Big Red Boat, or Allure of the Seas, is complacency. (the same is true on land also) Because true major emergencies, such as the Grandeurs fire, are extremely rare, most crews can spend their careers on ships and never see a fire, or experience the high heat and blinding smoke that comes with it. Yes, they go through "fire school" before they board a ship, and go back periodically, and the buildings they use may be hot, there is no substitute for actually dragging hoses down passageways, while trying to keep out of the worst heat, while still trying to put out a fire, or even get near it. We have a mantra where I work. Wet Stuff goes on the red stuff and we go home.

Another issue is the seeming party atmosphere, during the evacuation drill that even DCL is condoning. I was on another cruiseline, which shall remain nameless. As they called out the rooms, you were supposed to answer Hot, Hot, Hot. Guess what. In a real emergency, Im not yelling hot hot hot. I want to know that the kid standing in front of me, actually understands that this isnt a game. They are playing with peoples lives by doing that. By doing away with the lifejackets during the drill also, all its going to take is for 1 person to get hurt or worse, because they didnt understand it or how to put it on, then watch the instant experts come running. Common sense. Apparently there is a lack of it. I was talking with someone who was on the Fantasy hurricane cruise. They said the same things I did. If the Capt is coming over the ships loud speakers saying stay in your rooms, thats not the time to go get something to eat or complain to guest services. They are telling you this for a reason.

When is a ship too big? I honestly dont know the answer. If a ship is too big for a port, the line probably isnt going to send it there, if it cant be serviced. Port Canaveral last year comes to mind. Up until then, they did not have a pier big enough for the Oasis class ships. They do now and are planning on building another, and dredging the channel.

Just because a ship gets bigger, doesnt necessarily mean that safety is taking a back seat. Safety features on the ship are evolving, just as fast as the ships themselves.

Hey there Buddy!


I highlighted the *BINGO* points you made.

I totally agree!

AKK
 
We have not been on a cruise but we would like to go on a DCL trip. The only cruise lines I want to be on are DCL and Cunnard and I would prefer a longer cruise like crossing the Atlantic.

I have looked at the ships designs a bit and I am still concerned about the ships ability to evacuate people. The fact that the crew has to abandon ship in rafts instead of lifeboats is bothersome to me. In the Caribbean, the water will be warm enough for the crew to survive for some time, but in colder water like the North Atlantic or North Pacific, anyone in the water will die very quickly. Being in a raft is not going to buy you much time in cold waters. There had better be ships nearby to rescue or it is going to get really ugly.

Some interesting information about the Oasis. Very little of the ship is below the water line. This is true on the DCL ships as well. You can look at the ship models and see the water line. There is not much ship below the water line on these vessels.
http://www.livescience.com/7922-world-largest-cruise-ship-floats.html

There is a documentary that is interesting in that it talks about ship design and more importantly, the crew, during emergencies.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/why-ships-sink.html This documentary is on Netflx and on PBS. The key in all of this is the crew. Is the crew trained well enough to handle the circumstances? Sometimes they are and sometimes they are not. I would think DCL would be one of the better companies in regards to ship safety and crew training. From what I have read, I think the industry has learned from the ship fires and ship board illnesses. The industry knows that these problems have cost them millions of dollars and they are responding.

My problem with the large number of passengers on a life boat is that it takes more time to load more people. Time that might not be available in an emergency. Large number of people on a life boat means fewer boats which saves money and frees up the side of the ship for generating more money with expensive suites. But less life boats means less room for failure in lowering the boats as happened in the Concordia and other ships that have sunk.

I was shocked at how few life boats there are on these large cruise ships. I did the math and knew there was no way that every one would fit on the life boats and it took awhile for me to find out that the crew has to go on rafts.

Ship design is very important as is ship maintenance but it all depends on the crew and how well they are trained and how will they react. The documentary shows two Captains failing and they also blame Captain Smith of the Titanic.

If we can ever afford the time and money to go on a cruise, we will, but we will take flashlights for everyone in our party. A ships with not lights is a very dark place... We will find the life jackets, and if possible, practice putting them on.

Later,
Dan
 
This. The article even though it is weak, quoted the USCG report on the Splendor fire that found numerous faults that could be attributed to complacency.

https://homeport.uscg.mil

type splendor in the search box and it will take you to a page with a PDF of the whole report. Intersting stuff with pictures including one of the 700# piston that was ejected from the engine block.

I read that a while ago and Im still amazed. Theres at least 2 other CG reports, that detail failures that could have stopped the fire dead in its tracks, had someone caught theses issues prior to that sailing. Neither of them mention the Splendor by name, but its clear that the reports are for the Splendor fire. 1 regarded failure of the CO2 system and I forget what the other was off hand, but it showed pictures of the wrong fire control book on the Splendor.
 


Hello there Dan!

My thoughts...

We have not been on a cruise but we would like to go on a DCL trip. The only cruise lines I want to be on are DCL and Cunnard and I would prefer a longer cruise like crossing the Atlantic.

DCL is our favorite as well and Cunard is a fine old line. There are others you may like, including Princess and celebrity.

You may also wish to try a Panama Canal cruise


I have looked at the ships designs a bit and I am still concerned about the ships ability to evacuate people. The fact that the crew has to abandon ship in rafts instead of lifeboats is bothersome to me. In the Caribbean, the water will be warm enough for the crew to survive for some time, but in colder water like the North Atlantic or North Pacific, anyone in the water will die very quickly. Being in a raft is not going to buy you much time in cold waters. There had better be ships nearby to rescue or it is going to get really ugly.

These life rafts are very well engineered units, they offer good protection were the weather and the sea an carry considerable equipment, food and water. They are not like a cheap float!

Some interesting information about the Oasis. Very little of the ship is below the water line. This is true on the DCL ships as well. You can look at the ship models and see the water line. There is not much ship below the water line on these vessels.
http://www.livescience.com/7922-world-largest-cruise-ship-floats.html


Yes the new cruise liners are indeed tall with a good deal of the vessel above the waterline. However in short version, you have to keep in mind that most the space below the waterline is filled with heavy stuff! The engines and machinery, other machinery/ship and Hotel service, fresh water, ballast and different types of fuel oil, lube oils, stores, etc. etc.

The upper decks and spaces are relatively empty and lightly built.

It is because of this arrangement, the vessels can maintain proper stability and stay up right.

Now that said, The PBS documentary was correct in that some engineers and naval design folks are looking at the stability requirements, righting arms, etc, to see if the present requirements are indeed safe.


There is a documentary that is interesting in that it talks about ship design and more importantly, the crew, during emergencies.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/why-ships-sink.html This documentary is on Netflx and on PBS. The key in all of this is the crew. Is the crew trained well enough to handle the circumstances? Sometimes they are and sometimes they are not. I would think DCL would be one of the better companies in regards to ship safety and crew training. From what I have read, I think the industry has learned from the ship fires and ship board illnesses. The industry knows that these problems have cost them millions of dollars and they are responding.

I agree totally that DCL is high in safety and training, the times they have had to respond to emergencies on board the vessel have all been found to be very well handled.

In sea rescues, DCL crews have demonstrated a excellent ability to get people out of danger and onto the vessel. Even when near by cruise ships crews could not!


PS please give Jim Walkers comments no weight as he is a known sea lawyer
My problem with the large number of passengers on a life boat is that it takes more time to load more people. Time that might not be available in an emergency. Large number of people on a life boat means fewer boats which saves money and frees up the side of the ship for generating more money with expensive suites. But less life boats means less room for failure in lowering the boats as happened in the Concordia and other ships that have sunk.

I was shocked at how few life boats there are on these large cruise ships. I did the math and knew there was no way that every one would fit on the life boats and it took awhile for me to find out that the crew has to go on rafts.

Ship design is very important as is ship maintenance but it all depends on the crew and how well they are trained and how will they react. The documentary shows two Captains failing and they also blame Captain Smith of the Titanic.

While I feel the Concordia Master did just about everything he could do EROMNG that night. Captain Smith is another story

Captain ship was a excellent Master and seaman. The people sitting back and offering blame to him, 100 year later, fail to take into account normal ship practices and limitations of the time


If we can ever afford the time and money to go on a cruise, we will, but we will take flashlights for everyone in our party. A ships with not lights is a very dark place... We will find the life jackets, and if possible, practice putting them on.

Later,
Dan


What ever you do Enjoy the cruise you decide on.

AKK
 
I read that a while ago and Im still amazed. Theres at least 2 other CG reports, that detail failures that could have stopped the fire dead in its tracks, had someone caught theses issues prior to that sailing. Neither of them mention the Splendor by name, but its clear that the reports are for the Splendor fire. 1 regarded failure of the CO2 system and I forget what the other was off hand, but it showed pictures of the wrong fire control book on the Splendor.

I can add that the operation manual for the CO2 system onboard the Splendor was not the correct manual for the system.

AKK
 
I can add that the operation manual for the CO2 system onboard the Splendor was not the correct manual for the system.

AKK
Hey, sorry I just got back from and am worknig thru a pile of paperwork and training thats on my desk.

That was 1 of the things I noticed. Like I said, there was enough balls dropped by a lot of people from the ship, to corporate to the CG, that that particular issue should never have happened. My son and I were talking about the Splendor, the night we got off the Fantasy. At that time, just off the top of my head, I counted like 7 people that at any time could have caught 1 or more of the issues, and either reducing the impact or averting it completely.
 



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