Rioting in NC.

[brockash]

Terrance Crutcher obviously did something wrong when he did not follow the officers orders, and she obviously did something wrong when she overreacted and shot him dead. The question is did his something wrong warrant being killed? I would think not, can you imagine if ever person who do not follow a police officers orders was executed? She has been charged because the DA does not think that it was a justified shooting. Here is the part of the affidavit that deals with what he did wrong and with what she did wrong. She "reacted unreasonably by escalating the situation from a confrontation with Mr. Crutcher, who was not responding to verbal commands and was walking away from her with his hands held up, becoming emotionally involved to the point that she over reacted."

I was replying to the post that blatantly stated "Just as I said, Terrance did nothing wrong." The statement is most likely completely false and just seemed like such an odd thing to post. I was not stating any opinion as to who was "more wrong" etc. Just pointing out that it really seems so ridiculous and ignorant to put out such a false statement.

 

[ASchwa]

I tend to agree but..... was with my son in the car when he was stopped on a New Year's Eve Day alcohol stop. They were stopping everyone coming into our neighborhood, which is an enclave of middle class homes in suburbia. My 20 year old son had clearly not been drinking (we had come from visiting my mom in her assisted living facility) and had not disobeyed any traffic laws, it was a general stop everyone type thing. The cop was an absolute JERK to my son (who is not a snowflake lol), telling him multiple times he was going to run his license and to tell him now what he would find (nothing), and generally seemed to be trying to get my son to lose his cool (he didn't). I didn't say anything and let my son handle it, which wasn't easy. My son came away from that not trusting cops to be impartial in trying to uphold the law - and he is not a minority. Having watched this, I'm not sure I have much respect for this policeman, and the fact that he behaves like this in a low stress situation like this does concern me.

My son goes to school in a college town and holds an elected position there that has monthly regular contact with the police department. Before this experience at home, he held police in high regard especially seeing things from their perspective with his position at school. Now, he knows it's more realistic and safe for him to not assume that the police will treat him in a fair/just/unbiased way and bad things can happen to innocent/good people. Protect yourself. Probably a good thing for him to learn at this point in his life.'

Should have reported that jerk.

 

[Poohlove]

I haven't taught my children to "obey all authority figures" because I think that sort of thing makes children vulnerable to abuse. You don't obey a person just because they are older than you, or have a title like "teacher" or "coach". Even a soldier has, not just the right, but the duty to refuse an unlawful order.

I've taught my children that you give respect, to get respect. It's a two way street, and no one is entitled to respect just by virtue of who they are.

I've also taught my children to be aware of which people in their lives have power, and when they need to be cautious. Lipping off to a cop is just dumb - this is somebody with the power to make your life very difficult. This is somebody who may even be armed. If you feel that a person with power over you is overstepping their bounds, then you need to be observant, be polite, be calm, note everything you can, and take it up the chain later, when it's safe to do so.

And you're absolutely right - never tell a child that the cops are coming to get them if they're bad. For one, it's a lie. For two, the last thing you want is a child who will hide from the police when they're in danger. And for three, it goes right against the most important lesson of all - cops are people. Most are good people, but as it true with any group of human beings - some are bad people. Your child needs to be smart enough to figure out which is which, and know what to do when confronted with a tricky situation involving the police (or teachers, or coaches, or anyone else in their life who believes they have the authority to tell them what to do).

I am going to edit my "obey" statement for clarification. Of course I also taught my children right from wrong and they knew from a young age what was ok and not ok for people to ask of them but the general concept was a teacher, coach, etc. is someone who you take into advisement and when they tell you to do something such as homework or take a lap whether you like it or not it is their show and you are in it. Within your capacity as a student, athlete or citizen there are certain duties and responsibilities that you have.

As a law abiding citizen when you get stopped by a police officer and he tells you to stay in your vehicle, don't approach my vehicle, keeps your hands where I can see them or anything else you do it. Even if you think it's bologna that you are stopped to begin with just do what is asked - within reason. And I know, we can debate reason until the cows come home but I mean asking for favors and stuff like that.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Should have reported that jerk.

That's a big part of the problem. People don't report things like that. It seems pointless. I doubt anyone who that was reported to would care out think it was a big deal. Look at all these threads here. It's always the same. The cop is never to blame, any bad behaviour is excuses as being the person's fault, any criticism is just dismissed as cop hating. It's the typical disboards fantasy world where everything is simple black & white, good & bad.

 

[Barbara76]

I'm not the poster, but I do have common sense and just as I am sure you knew the poster was obviously talking about the NC shooting, as this is what this thread is about, that is where the rioting/protesting is occurring and there have been numerous videos and reports showing/saying that the police chief is African-American and that the officer who shot the man was African-American.

Not sure why you wasted time and energy asking only about the complete opposite shooting.

I didn't talk about an opposite shooting. I am talking about the shooting in NC, which is why I was confused as to which shooting the other poster was talking about since he stated facts that did not match the case I thought we were talking about. If they were indeed talking about that shooting they should not be telling others to learn the facts when they do not know them themselves.

Edited to add: I am sorry, I stand corrected. I was talking about a different shooting. It is truly a sad state of affairs that there are so many of these that we have to figure out which one someone is referencing. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Geoff_M]

It's always the same. The cop is never to blame, any bad behaviour is excuses as being the person's fault, any criticism is just dismissed as cop hating.

That's a gross exaggeration. While some posters here seem to assume the default position that any given shooting was likely justified, you know as well as I do that there has historically been a wide diversity of opinions expressed here on such threads.

 

[PlutoPony]

Should have reported that jerk.

And risk my son being retaliated against later? Not a chance. Plus it's my word against his, my definition of "being a jerk" vs his, very subjective. Better to learn from it and let it go. Think about it.... if I feel like this, how does a person feel who's seen much worse behavior of police (unless of course you don't believe that ever happens, especially in more urban, diverse settings). If the policeman was a jerk in this minor situation, how is he going to behave in a high stress situation? His behavior did make my son feel like he trusts police less now, so think about how a kid who's maybe had more "contact" with police feels about them, are they to be trusted, etc...... I am NOT trying to paint policemen as BAD, but I do understand how people might not trust them to do the right thing, tell the truth, etc. If you've never had an experience that made you doubt police, I can see how you might not feel that way.

 

[ASchwa]

That's a big part of the problem. People don't report things like that. It seems pointless. I doubt anyone who that was reported to would care out think it was a big deal. Look at all these threads here. It's always the same. The cop is never to blame, any bad behaviour is excuses as being the person's fault, any criticism is just dismissed as cop hating. It's the typical disboards fantasy world where everything is simple black & white, good & bad.

I have never said that the police is never to blame. I have said that rioting isn't a way to get change. Police are people, they are good and bad. How are things going to change if no one speaks up? Look at my posts and you will see that I have always supported dialogue, I was happy a couple of weeks ago when I saw that the chapter of BLM in Wichita, Kansas was having a BBQ with the police department called first steps. I was angry when I read the tweet from Patrisse Cullors who criticized that chapter, said that they didn't uphold BLM principles. That tweet showed me what kind of organization BLM is, and it lost all credibility in my eyes. I have always said that the shooting of Akai Gurley in NYC was wrong, and have never ever said that the Officer who shot him was being punished in a wrong way.

 

[ASchwa]

And risk my son being retaliated against later? Not a chance. Plus it's my word against his, my definition of "being a jerk" vs his, very subjective. Better to learn from it and let it go. Think about it.... if I feel like this, how does a person feel who's seen much worse behavior of police (unless of course you don't believe that ever happens, especially in more urban, diverse settings). If the policeman was a jerk in this minor situation, how is he going to behave in a high stress situation? His behavior did make my son feel like he trusts police less now, so think about how a kid who's maybe had more "contact" with police feels about them, are they to be trusted, etc...... I am NOT trying to paint policemen as BAD, but I do understand how people might not trust them to do the right thing, tell the truth, etc. If you've never had an experience that made you doubt police, I can see how you might not feel that way.

Actually, I live in a suburb near NYC. I have seen police act like jerks including one incident that happened between a volunteer fireman and a police officer. The officer shot the fireman and I think he was let go. My brother was arrested and my parents sued because it was wrong. My parents won. I don't have rose colored glasses on.

 

[Magpie]

I am going to edit my "obey" statement for clarification. Of course I also taught my children right from wrong and they knew from a young age what was ok and not ok for people to ask of them but the general concept was a teacher, coach, etc. is someone who you take into advisement and when they tell you to do something such as homework or take a lap whether you like it or not it is their show and you are in it. Within your capacity as a student, athlete or citizen there are certain duties and responsibilities that you have.

As a law abiding citizen when you get stopped by a police officer and he tells you to stay in your vehicle, don't approach my vehicle, keeps your hands where I can see them or anything else you do it. Even if you think it's bologna that you are stopped to begin with just do what is asked - within reason. And I know, we can debate reason until the cows come home but I mean asking for favors and stuff like that.

Gotcha! I've always felt strongly that obedience should be a reasoned, conscious choice, not a habit or an obligation, which is why I tend to jump on the soapbox whenever I read stuff like, "Teach your children to obey authority figures."

As I told my kids, "You can always choose not to do the homework, but that means you're choosing to accept the consequences of not doing your homework. It's entirely up to you, whether that zero is worth it or not." There's also the part where you ask your kids what they're hoping to get out of their participation. "If you choose not to practice... then why are you even on the team? Stop wasting everyone's time, and find something more productive to do." Do or do not, there is no, "Eh... I think I'll just kinda half* it..."

 

[JimMIA]

I'm glad to see that the protests in Charlotte last night were generally peaceful, although I'm afraid the damage to that community is already done.

As others have said, rioting accomplishes nothing (except maybe a new TV), and it causes great harm to the communities who do the rioting. We had a major race riot (18 killed) in Miami in 1980 and those communities have never recovered -- 36 years later. Nor will they.

The best that can happen in those communities is that their geographic location causes the indigenous residents to be squeezed out by new types of businesses and gentrification -- as happened in the Wynwood area of Miami. After 25 years of decay and decline, Wynwood property (located close to downtown) became so cheap that opportunistic entrepreneurs began moving in, eventually creating an attractive arts/dining area. But you won't see any of the people who used to live and riot there sitting in the sidewalk cafes. They were forced out.

Rioting turns people who were once sympathetic against those communities. Publically, we say all the right things, but privately -- where the real decisions are made -- law abiding people resent communities where riots occur. Business owners become rightfully fearful and either move out, decide not to rebuild (riot damage is usually not covered by insurance) or choose not to locate in the community. Community residents who had jobs in the community lose them as businesses leave and have to go elsewhere to find work. The shells of former thriving businesses like locally owned grocery stores become storefront operations of government-funded "community organizations," which often do more to perpetuate poverty, dependency and other problems than they do to make lives better.

Regardless of the cause or excuse, rioting kills communities...and destroys the good things that bound the good people of those neighborhoods together.

 

[PlutoPony]

Regardless of the cause or excuse, rioting kills communities...and destroys the good things that bound the good people of those neighborhoods together.

Let me be clear that I'm not supportive of or in favor of rioting. Period. And it may be a mistake for me to try and make this point but I'll stick my neck out in the interests of good discussion....

One thing you seem to often hear after a public disturbance such as happened in Charlotte is Wow - I didn't know/think things were bad here, that we HAD this problem. Even in Baltimore this was heard, even though most of us in the area thought it was common knowledge that the police and residents in some parts of the city had an uneasy relationship (for lack of a better way of putting it). The police shootings are often not the sole or even major reason for the unrest, merely the spark that sets the tinderbox off. But many people don't even realize there IS a tinderbox, are in denial about it. The bottom line is we need to recognize problems that underlie and drive these type eruptions well before they reach a boiling point.... and I'm not sure we're doing that. I'd like to think that really solid, consistent, and well done community policing is one way to help avoid and diffuse this but I'll defer to those with more direct knowledge of the subject.....

 

[Wishing on a star]

I disagree.
If this is their chance to 'be heard'... So, I have to say, that if there are underlying issues, then why are these not what they are chanting????
And, if the so-called and non-existant rampant random police shootings/murders, are not the issue, then why are they chanting "Don't Shoot", "Dead Cops, NOW...", etc...
After the recent discussion here, I will say once again.
If they are truly worried about being shot and murdered by law enforcement, then why would they purposefully choose not to be non-threating and compliant. Why would they purposefully choose to behave in a way that would make getting shot even more likely.

I am seeing on TV this morning, they are marching with huge and very specific banners that say RESIST POLICE.

There is no truth here.
There is no justification here.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I'd like to think that really solid, consistent, and well done community policing is one way to help avoid and diffuse this but I'll defer to those with more direct knowledge of the subject.....

Again, look at the facts...
Let's compare New York, which did step up community policing, and Chicago.
One of the lowest pre-capita violent crime/murder rates in a large metropolitan city/area, versus the absolute highest.

They can't 'protest' police shootings in Chicago, because the Police are not there, doing their job. There are thousands and thousands of crime victims and murders in Chicago.
Thousands of black lives lost in Chicago each year. Versus a handful of possibly legitmate unjustified police shootings/murders nationally.

Remember, the police force here is headed by a black police chief.
The shooting involved a black, and well regarded, police officer.

And yet, they chant Dead Cops NOW... and RESIST POLICE.

No truth here. No justification.

Those darned pesky little facts....

 

[JimMIA]

I agree -- but I think it's also necessary to draw a distinction between the loudmouth agitators and looters (both of whom are engaged in a fundraising opportunity) and the decent average citizens who live in these neighborhoods.

The many good people are used as pawns by politicians and professional agitators, and are victimized daily by the thugs who are doing the looting. And it is THEIR jobs (activists and thugs don't work for a living) that will go away, their churches that will decline and close their doors, their good neighbors who will move away and leave a wasteland like Detroit.

The savvy people in these communities understand who will pay the real price of riots -- the GOOD people, not the low-lifes. That's why you now see clergy and other legitimate community leaders starting to come forward -- as they did in Baltimore and elsewhere -- to try to stop the violence.

 

[luvsJack]

I tend to agree but..... was with my son in the car when he was stopped on a New Year's Eve Day alcohol stop. They were stopping everyone coming into our neighborhood, which is an enclave of middle class homes in suburbia. My 20 year old son had clearly not been drinking (we had come from visiting my mom in her assisted living facility) and had not disobeyed any traffic laws, it was a general stop everyone type thing. The cop was an absolute JERK to my son (who is not a snowflake lol), telling him multiple times he was going to run his license and to tell him now what he would find (nothing), and generally seemed to be trying to get my son to lose his cool (he didn't). I didn't say anything and let my son handle it, which wasn't easy. My son came away from that not trusting cops to be impartial in trying to uphold the law - and he is not a minority. Having watched this, I'm not sure I have much respect for this policeman, and the fact that he behaves like this in a low stress situation like this does concern me.

My son goes to school in a college town and holds an elected position there that has monthly regular contact with the police department. Before this experience at home, he held police in high regard especially seeing things from their perspective with his position at school. Now, he knows it's more realistic and safe for him to not assume that the police will treat him in a fair/just/unbiased way and bad things can happen to innocent/good people. Protect yourself. Probably a good thing for him to learn at this point in his life.'

I totally get the feelings of your son. My younger son had many stops by the law. His car was searched many times with nothing found. And there were times he just would not shut up and ended up on the ground. Once while he was defending the treatment of his friend. He was stopped and ticketed enough by one officer that after seeing him too many times where he was able to successfully argue the ticket, the judge told the officer to back off, he was bordering on harassment.

The "respect the uniform" took him awhile. But after working a job that he loves and has him working closely with city officers, he sees what they deal with and go through most days. He understands it now.

 

[Gary M]

I feel sick over this. I love Charlotte... and this is NOT Charlotte.

I read the other day that the police estimated over 70% of the violent "protesters" were bused in from out of state. I think this was based on ID's that the cops saw. It's believed a certain very wealthy man foots the bill for bringing in the thugs for most of these riots. I don't want to get into politics so I'll drop it at that.

 

[mom2my3kids]

Difference between protesting and rioting and this is rioting...But this is not America most of America is law abiding citizens...and the media is making it worse they are stiring the pot..I refuse to watch the news anymore, CNN is the worse..

 

[Aimeedyan]

I wanted to point out that yes, there was a small group of rioters stem out of peaceful protests on Tuesday and Wednesday night this week. It's absurd, I'm heartbroken over it, and several businesses did have damage. And more importantly, someone lost their life.

However, Thursday and Friday nights were PEACEFUL protests. Not riots. Today, there is already an organized protest underway and so far, all peaceful. I realize even peaceful protests do affect a city - nearby businesses, law enforcement, public transportation - they are all affected but I also want to always support the right to peaceful protest. I think it's an important part of our history and is seen by many as a way to initiate change. It's also a way for people to respond to (what they perceive to be) injustice. I see the value.

In case you hadn't heard, they have used surveillance footage and social media to identify many of those involved in looting and damaging property and have already arrested some involved. An arrest in the shooting Wednesday was also made. Hopefully, those FEW will be held accountable for their actions.

Our police dept, and the National Guard, have done an amazing job at maintaining peace the last few days. Many religious leaders here have played an intricate role in that as well. Unfortunately, the media (mostly national news + social media) have done nothing but focus on the FEW who chose to become destructive the first two nights. There have been incredible stories of friendship, understanding, and peace that they, of course, ignore. Those stories don't get near the traction. Even the dumb Facebook "mark if you're safe" element fanned the flames, IMO.

Charlotte is my (now) home and I would hate for anyone to think that the picture shown to you on the big national news organizations from a couple of days ago is anywhere similar to how Charlotte really is. And as someone pointed out, many of those participating in destruction aren't even from here. They are opportunists who don't care about the cause - they just want to take advantage of the situation and create chaos and violence.

I pray that things continue to be peaceful. I do have some fear that the controversy over the police footage may spark things back up (depending upon how they proceed with that) but am praying it won't. Esp now that I just posted a whole thing about how peaceful things have been

 

[kandb]

Now there is attorney hired to sue the police/city in Ohio because a 13 year old had a bb gun that looked exactly like a Glock 9mm gun and took it out of his waistband and pointed towards the cops. Why do people think that police officers don't have the right to protect their lives? I bet most people protesting would never have the nerve to be a cop and have to put their lives on the line everyday. People have to sit back and put themselves in the cops positions. These actions by the police are split second decisions. The media is making it like the cops are going out their just to shoot down black people. In most of the cases if the people would follow the officers commands they would of never been hurt. Yes, some cops have made mistakes or jumped the gun and it's heartbreaking that people died (no matter what their color) but unfortunately cops make mistakes, just like doctors, nurses, anesthesiologist do, it's just not recorded like the cops mistakes.