Potentially unpopular opinion regarding point rentals

I posted similar thoughts on another thread. Thanks to social media and the internet more people are looking to rent points everyday. I have an issue with people that deliberately book highly sought after dates and resorts for the sole purpose of renting to non-members at the highest price possible. The reason I have a problem with this is DVC resorts were meant to be used by members that invested a lot of money and were making the commitment to return to Disney parks on a regular basis. I had pride in being a member and always took care of any resort I stayed at like it was my own. I would like to see some percentages of how many non-members are staying vs. members. I know Disney has the data, so maybe they should think about how many memberships they might be missing out on because they have made it too easy for guests to stay by renting vs. buying. My suggestion (I'm sure also unpopular) would be to access a fee of some kind to any reservation that is for non-members. Anything collected could be applied to upkeep on the resorts, thereby lowering my annual fees so I am not paying for the privilege of not being able to stay in DVC resorts that are fully booked with non-members. Okay, off my soapbox now. :)
 
s DVC resorts were meant to be used by members that invested a lot of money and were making the commitment to return to Disney parks on a regular basis.

I do not recall that in the resort documents that govern the association?

But what is in there is the allowance to be able to rent and also to book for friends and family and to not even mark it as a rental and that they might also receive some benefits although that's all it says with nothing specific on what benefits - ie, it's up to DVC.
 
The ability to rent out our points easily was a selling feature for us as we cruise sometimes as well as travel elsewhere & it’s nice to have the MF covered for that year.

Spec reservations, however, I find not within the spirit of DVC ownership, even if it doesn’t violate the contractual agreement. I also personally won’t rent out points in the fall or during RDisney events. I know how many members are trying to book during those times & just wouldn’t feel right about it. & there are more non members than one might think renting for RDisney events.
 
Right now the economy is high and flourishing, people are flush with cash so it's maybe a bit harder to get what you want. Personally, it's never been a problem for me, not at 11 months, not at 7 months, I've always been able to switch, and only once have I not gotten my waitlist. For me, it's the date that matters, I'm not so hung up on the resort, there's enough to like about every resort, so there's no disappointment. And if I end up at other resorts rather than my home, OKW, it's because I planned late, more like at the 5 month window and OKW was booked up but I still got a reservation. Long term successful DVC Timeshare ownership requires the ability to plan ahead and to be flexible.
really? flush with cash? unless you are fairly wealthy, or work in tech, medical or BMW I know of no one flush with cash... Stop paying atten to fox news and listen to my accountant. LOL. flush with cash, that's hysterical.
 


really? flush with cash? unless you are fairly wealthy, or work in tech, medical or BMW I know of no one flush with cash... Stop paying atten to fox news and listen to my accountant. LOL. flush with cash, that's hysterical.
There's no reason to be snarky. Consumer spending continues to rise quarter by quarter. So, yes, people apparently do feel free to spend.
https://www.bea.gov/data/consumer-spending/main

And domestic travel demand also continues to rise, and is expected to continue doing so:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/207075/domestic-travel-spending-in-the-us-since-2000/
 
really? flush with cash? unless you are fairly wealthy, or work in tech, medical or BMW I know of no one flush with cash... Stop paying atten to fox news and listen to my accountant. LOL. flush with cash, that's hysterical.
I remember the recession not to long ago. I remember all of the home repossessions and the loss of jobs, I remember having your choice of DVC rentals because people couldn’t afford to go. And, I remember reading all of the sad stories in these forums of people having to sell or give their DVC’s up, out of monetary need!Your statement is inappropriate!
 
Starting to get personal and bordering on polictical. Please don't give the us mods cause to close the thread or issue infractions!
 


A recession will hit again, when and how bad it will be, who knows, but it will happen. Right now I am not really feeling the need to buy any more points or sell my contract and buy a bigger one, like I was before. I will just sit tight for a bit and see just how much more ticket prices and such will rise with Disney in the next few years. I will most likely take one more trip to the World and then slack off for a bit before returning. May cruise, head back to Hilton Head, who knows? Will be heading back to Grand Cayman here soon, really never seen us doing that!

But one thing for me that has not changed is the fact that I like to stay at different resorts with my visits. There is no way I could stay at the same place year after year, so buying where you want to stay can't really apply to me, so I just bought at OKW. On my short list for other places to stay will be the Poly, Boardwalk, OKW, SSR and new DVC resorts. Stays at the Grand and BLT are not really needed for myself.
 
All personal opinion - I'm not necessarily right, no one else is necessarily wrong.

DVC owners at BRV. We wish Disney would BAN Point Rentals. This has become a speculation industry, that is really killing Disney Hotels, and REAL owners, both of which are now in price competition with a Grey Market :(.

Banning Point Rentals does not affect a members ability to book a reservation for another - it just makes it the Member's Direct Job to book, and manage, the Reservation. Not being a lawyer? I would have to look at the DVC CONTRACT, in detail, with a good LAWYER, to see if DVC COULD do this.

We have booked for another - my dear children. ZERO profit (these are my children). When "We can make money" sneaks into DVC? Everyone suffers from speculation... current owners, future owners, DVC itself.

Again, All personal opinion - I'm not necessarily right, no one else is necessarily wrong.
 
I do not recall that in the resort documents that govern the association?

But what is in there is the allowance to be able to rent and also to book for friends and family and to not even mark it as a rental and that they might also receive some benefits although that's all it says with nothing specific on what benefits - ie, it's up to DVC.

Yes, for friends and family...you get the dates and resort they want to stay at and make a reservation in their name from the get go, you don't make a reservation in your name for various random dates/resorts, sell the reservation for the highest amount you can get, then change the name on the reservation. If people don't want an admin fee on ressies for non-owners, maybe there can just be one charged to do a name change. I truly believe all these rented points and the changes that go along with them are adding $$$$ to our annual fees. It honestly is just my opinion and I probably shouldn't have shared it, but it's how I feel.
 
All personal opinion - I'm not necessarily right, no one else is necessarily wrong.

DVC owners at BRV. We wish Disney would BAN Point Rentals. This has become a speculation industry, that is really killing Disney Hotels, and REAL owners, both of which are now in price competition with a Grey Market :(.

Banning Point Rentals does not affect a members ability to book a reservation for another - it just makes it the Member's Direct Job to book, and manage, the Reservation. Not being a lawyer? I would have to look at the DVC CONTRACT, in detail, with a good LAWYER, to see if DVC COULD do this.

We have booked for another - my dear children. ZERO profit (these are my children). When "We can make money" sneaks into DVC? Everyone suffers from speculation... current owners, future owners, DVC itself.

Again, All personal opinion - I'm not necessarily right, no one else is necessarily wrong.
Ban point rentals? Hmmm, then I would sell.
 
Quite a number of assumptions being made on this thread. Does anyone have any evidence that resorts are being fully booked with non-members instead of members, or even that renters make up a significant portion of DVC resort guests at any given time?

I'm not sure where the assumption comes from that if one can't get a reservation, it must be because of renters. Isn't it possible, even likely, that it's your fellow members who are booking the rooms for their own use?
 
When you rent through an agency, the member still makes the reservation. DVC does not know which reservations are rentals and which are for family or friends. It would be difficult to enforce. I have never rented but want to retain that right.
 
Quite a number of assumptions being made on this thread. Does anyone have any evidence that resorts are being fully booked with non-members instead of members, or even that renters make up a significant portion of DVC resort guests at any given time?

I am guilty of making assumptions, but it's because I was shocked at how many sources have popped up offering points for rent...online businesses, multiple FB groups, craigslist, discussion boards, etc. I don't think resorts are being fully booked, but I do feel a good percentage of the guests are non-members that are staying on rented points.

not sure where the assumption comes from that if one can't get a reservation, it must be because of renters. Isn't it possible, even likely, that it's your fellow members who are booking the rooms for their own use?

Quite a few probably are for their own use, but just peruse some of the places mentioned above and I would be willing to bet there is someone with an existing reservation for dates you want to book and can't that is being offered up for rent. It would actually be very interesting to see some statistics on how many non-members are using the DVC resorts.
 
My personal opinion is that points are points, the bodies that occupy the room are immaterial. The fact is rooms at 7 months or later are going to be difficult to make, and that is a result of the flexibility that is built into the system. Owners can attempt to use their points at any DVC resort they like and anytime they like, it is natural that certain resorts will be in higher demand than others. It is also natural that certain times of the year are going to be in higher demand than others.

Rentals only affect availability if the owner renting out the points would have let them expire instead. I am sure that this happens a little, but I would speculate that it doesn't happen often enough to affect the total system much. Like was mentioned earlier non-WDW resorts and high point rooms (Cabins and Bungalows) add a large number of points with relatively few rooms. So when someone buys at those resorts, but cannot afford to say in those high point rooms, those points can add to the problem somewhat.

Even it they no longer allowed owners to make reservations for others, we would still be experiencing the availability issue we have today. The only way to eliminate it would be to remove the ability to book at a resort other than your home resort and to fix people to a set time of the year. If that would happen, then DVC would not be as attractive of an option. Personally, I will take the availability challenges in order to have the flexibility. It won't always work out the way we hope, but it is better than the alternative.
 
Hello, all. We're new DVC members, so we're still exploring the insurance and outs of membership and doing our research about all the resorts and the quirks of DVC booking vs booking a regular stay at a deluxe resort.

Anyway, I've been a little bothered/disappointed by the way that it looks nearly impossible to book at a WDW resort that isn't your home resort at 7 months, especially considering that a lot of those 11 month bookings are just from people planning to rent out their reservation during popular events (e.g. BCV during any Epcot festival)

Personally, I think we'll be okay because we bought where we plan to stay most of the time (CCV), and we're planning to stay in larger villas (not studios). The other resorts we're most interested in (like Kidani savannah view) tend to have better availability anyway. But from what I've observed, I think we'll have an extremely difficult time ever staying at BCV or Poly without waitlisting and/or RAT stalking, which seems unfair, considering non-members can rent points so easily.

SO HERE'S THE UNPOPULAR OPINION PART: What if 11-month home resort priority booking was only for members staying on that reservation? Members planning to rent/trade/borrow points could still do whatever they want, but they'd have to wait until 7 months to book.

Thoughts? I'm not looking to start any fights! Just curious what members who've been around longer think about this idea. I could be totally overlooking something, so let me know what you think!
IMO an owner renting is more deserving than an internal exchanger (DVC member using at 7 months). There is a contractual ability to rent and a contractual requirement not to rent "commercially" currently defined as a threshold of 20 reservations in a running year. My view is that someone renting is the same as the owner using their points. This is the nature of the system (both rentals & 7 month availability in general), items a potential owner should understand prior to buying. The 7 month window has gotten more trying. I believe there are a number of factors but I believe SSR has been the overwhelming single factor with impacts all the way back to 11 months out at other resorts.

That's a good way to look at it
It's not just a view, it's a fact. We don't own at all DVC resorts, just the one's we own points at up to the limit of those points. The idea that we own in the "club" is nice but in reality it's all smoke and mirrors with no guarantees in terms of availability either at 7 months or even at 11 months out.

I think the problem is too many buy the lowest cost resort with no plans to ever stay there, and try to switch at 7 months.
To a degree. There are 2 groups, those that bought without the intent or before other resorts came online and those that took this plan purposefully. I'd guess the former group is much larger than the latter by far but the end result is the same. Plus add to that those that look to use points occasionally at 7 months out.

When Disney rents out a dvc room for cash, are they legally considered a renter? If so, I don't think they are ever going to do anything to restrict themselves.
Legally they are a renter though they have taken liberties already to differentiate themselves from a member renting. If they were somehow able to ban renting, they couldn't rent either. What they could do is set up a system that made it difficult to rent that they could negotiate more easily as a company but it'd likely open them up to legal action, one they could easily lose. Disney is not averse to being sued, they are averse to losing and to bad publicity.
 
Many believe that Disney can change the existing reservation rules any time it feels like it. That is a misconception. The suggestion made to create a rule that basically prohibits home resort reservations for rental during the 11 month window is something that would be a material change to ownership rights in the governing documents and Disney cannot make such changes absent a vote of the actual members. The documents provide for a right to rent. They also provide that members will be treated the same for reservations, subject to owners of a resort having at least a one month reservation advantage over others for reservations at the home resort. The current 11 and 7 month reservation rule (a four month advantage) has been around since the creation of the second DVC resort (when OKW first opened a rule of 11 months and 10 months existed, but of course never got applied because of the absence of any other DVC resorts). The 11/7 rule works well for overall reservations and the systems designed to handle them and Disney likely sees no valid reason to change the current four month advantage to less.

All owners (including Disney for points it controls) are subject to the same rule: reservations shall be made on a first come first served basis. Absent a member vote, that rule cannot be changed to a rule that favors owners who are reserving for only their own stays. That rule prevents such things as Disney's creating reservation advantages in favor of those with a lot of points over those with not so many.

Renting is expressly permitted subject to a rule that a member cannot be engaging in a pattern of rental activity that shows the member is engaging in rentals for "commercial purposes." Though somewhat vague that is basically a term, as even construed by Disney, that prevents members from being in the business of renting. It does not, for example, prevent a member from using part of their points for family reservations and part for renting to cover dues. About 10 to 12 years ago, Disney created three rules that actually addressed a problem that existed at the time of members being in the business of renting: (a) if a member attempts to make more than 20 reservations during any given 12 month period, there will be a presumption that you are violating the commercial purposes rule and you will not be able to make more reservations absent establishing that none of your reservatiosn are rentals; (b) the transfer rule at the time which allowed a member who intended to rent to take in an unlimited amount of transfers per year was changed to allowing only one transfer; and (c) the rule at the time which allowed anyone to become an associate member to any number of other memberships, so the associate could make reservations using that other member's points, was changed to allowing one to be an associate member on no more than four memberships.

The assumption is made that a major cause of low inventory at 7 months out is members engaging in predatory renting by reserving 11 months out just to rent at favorable times for favorable rooms. It is actually that kind of predatory renting that was addressed 10 to 12 years ago by the three new rules noted above. At the time, there were professional renters, who controlled a huge amount of points, via ownership, via transfers in and via associate memberships, who were making large numbers of reservations right at 11 months out for highly sought after rooms (mainly studios at near park resorts) for high demand times such as Christmas, Thanksgiving, and others and then advertising on line to rent those rooms (this site even made changes to its rental board to prevent that by prohibiting members from advertising to rent reservations already made unless you were 30 days or less out).

The changes made more than a decade ago greatly reduced but did not eliminate predatory renting. Renting is perhaps one factor relating to availability at 7 months out, e.g., such as for race weekends, but Disney cannot stop it via the suggested rule to change the 11 month window rules, and going further than the rule changes it made 10 to 12 years ago could lead to legal challenges that Disney would lose.

Also, it is likely incorrect to assume that more restrictions on rentals are going to solve problems relating to availability at 7 months out. As I have noted in the past, there are basically two distinct DVC demand seasons at WDW, a low to moderate demand season that runs from the Monday after marathon weekend in Jan to late Sep, and a high to extremely high demand season that runs from late Sep to marathon weekend in Jan. During the low to moderate demand season many rooms including studios are often available at 7 months, including many at near park resorts such as BWV pool/garden view, Poly, and BLT lake view. Even BCV is available about 50% of the time, and even VGF and BWV boardwalk view studios can sometimes be found for a week particularly during the lowest demand times of the year -- Feb 1 to the Thurs before Presidents' Day, late Feb after the Princess half marathon weekend to second week of March, last week of April, and July 7 to 31.

The high demand that exists for late Sep to marathon weekend in Jan is brought about by numerous factors other than renting: (a) mostly ideal weather; (b) the Disney created events for Halloween and Christmas, and Food & Wine, which make that entire time desirable; (c) the ever-growing population of older DVC owners who can now take vacations not tied to school schedules and now want studios rather than the 1BRs or 2BRs they needed with kids; (d) the fact that the points required are, except for the holiday times, the lowest or second lowest of the year. Added to those are problems purposefully created by Disney that have resulted in extreme demand for near park resorts and studios at those resorts: (a) the creation of huge resorts not near the parks such as SSR that were actually sold by the sales force representing that one could buy there and then easily reserve elsewhere at 7 months out; (b) The ever-increasing purchase prices (bearing no relation to inflation) and points needed per night, such as for resorts like Poly and VGF, that render it impossible for many to buy more points than that needed for studios during the lower point times, and Disney adding to that demand further by lowering points required to be purchased and changing studios at near park resorts to sleep 5; (c) the modern DVC resorts at Poly and CCV which created large numbers of bungalows and cabins at a nightly point cost that only the rich can afford (e.g., the price one would need to pay to Disney for a week in a Poly bungalow every year exceeds $200,000), but allowed Disney to sell most of those points applicable to the bungalows and cabins to members who could only afford studios, thus legally "overselling" the studios and adding to demand for studios at near park resorts, and meanwhile Disney gets to rent a lot of time in those bungalows and cabins at 60 days out for profit: (d) particularly at VGF, creating too few studios while selling most of the points to those who could purchase only enough to get studios.

Changing the rental rules is not likely to resolve the existing problems with availability. Moreover, if you want to place blame for those problems, it should not be on members who rent but instead mainly on one party, Disney, which has done so much to cause the existing availability problems for the purpose of making more profits. Moreover, be aware that there is actually one party that is the best position over all others to do predatory renting, Disney. One might first think it is a good thing that Disney must follow the same first come, first served reservation rule as others. However, it is Disney that actually owns 2% to 4% of the points at any sold out resort and gets points via other means such as trade-outs and foreclosures, is exempted from the "commercial purposes" rule, and can during the 11 month window use home resort points to reserve rooms it later rents. The only thing that prevents it from using all those points during the 11 month window to reserve highly desired studios during highly desired times is one not even stated in any of the documents -- its fiduciary duty to act in the best interests of members as a whole, a concept which still allows the company to do a lot of things that some members may consider improper.
 
Last edited:
I am guilty of making assumptions, but it's because I was shocked at how many sources have popped up offering points for rent...online businesses, multiple FB groups, craigslist, discussion boards, etc. I don't think resorts are being fully booked, but I do feel a good percentage of the guests are non-members that are staying on rented points.

There are a fair number of businesses and groups offering to help with rentals, yes. But the demand for rentals is far higher than the supply of members who want to rent out points, so the number of actual rentals that are taking place doesn't really correlate with the number of Facebook groups or discussion boards that exist to facilitate rentals. And those businesses aren't offering points for rent, because DVC doesn't allow that kind of mass commercial renting. All of those sources you mention are acting as middlemen, either providing a place for members who have points they need to get rid of to post an offer (like the DISboards), or matching up members who want to rent with people who want a reservation (like David's).

Put another way, the existence of those businesses and groups doesn't mean that more rentals are happening. Yes, it's true that more people are aware of the possibility of getting a rental because we talk about it on boards like this one. But does that mean that more DVC members are deciding not to take vacations with their points?

For your assumptions to be true, both sides of that equation have to be true: More non-members have to be wanting to rent points (quite possible), and more members have to stop using points for their own vacations. That second part, I find highly unlikely.
 
For your assumptions to be true, both sides of that equation have to be true: More non-members have to be wanting to rent points (quite possible), and more members have to stop using points for their own vacations. That second part, I find highly unlikely.

Agreed. The new "offerings" still need renters and owners. The fact there are more looking to set up a facilitating business website does not mean more is happening. They could simply be skimming from the main one or two that previously existed. And even if more are using brokers it's very possible that they were previously renting out the points themselves but now find it more time and cost effective to just use a broker. So still no more rentals than there were, just more utilizing a broker.
 
For those renting out, how long do you think it will be before the rental price goes up to $19 a point to match what Disney charges for OTU points?
 

GET A DISNEY VACATION QUOTE

Dreams Unlimited Travel is committed to providing you with the very best vacation planning experience possible. Our Vacation Planners are experts and will share their honest advice to help you have a magical vacation.

Let us help you with your next Disney Vacation!













facebook twitter
Top