Kidani Counter Service

[DebbieB]

Probably the same genius who planned BWV with only 1 set of elevators.

 

[LIFERBABE]

What is DVC thinking or not thinking? Clearly a counter service option at Kidani made all the sense in the world. You don't need an MBA in hospitality management to see that. Then they make the big deal of calling people and saying "We care about your opinion, thanks for emailing in" I emailed my thoughts and got the same call. Are you really telling me with all their resort expertise they are now surprised that people so overwhelmingly want that option? It maybe spilled milk for Kidani now, what about the next resort they build. I think this shows in the end upper management really doesn't care about member opinions, maybe the rank and file does. If they did this never would of happened.

I agree. After SSR opened without Table Service and DVC admitted they were remiss in not adding it, Im not really understanding either.
With members and cash guests using the dining plans and then not offering any counter service option at the resort? The bus from Jambo to Kidani is no picnic. It is the DTD bus and no matter where you stay, there are not many of those. AKL is a very large resort combined. Bigger than SSR and pool food should have been offered without having to order Private Dining. Who ever came up with that solution should be whipped with a wet noodle!

 

[DenLo]

Many families get a quick meal before going to the park after a morning swimming or a nap. A little less chaos and little time together. But I don't think Disney really left out a counter service because we can all go to Chick-fil-a nearby instead. It's a real effort for families or those with difficulty walking, or if you're just plumb worn out from a day in the heat at a park to go over to Jamba House for a CS.

 

[tjkraz]

What is DVC thinking or not thinking? Clearly a counter service option at Kidani made all the sense in the world. You don't need an MBA in hospitality management to see that. Then they make the big deal of calling people and saying "We care about your opinion, thanks for emailing in" I emailed my thoughts and got the same call. Are you really telling me with all their resort expertise they are now surprised that people so overwhelmingly want that option? It maybe spilled milk for Kidani now, what about the next resort they build. I think this shows in the end upper management really doesn't care about member opinions, maybe the rank and file does. If they did this never would of happened.

You don't need an MBA to figure that people would like to have a CS restaurant but you do need an MBA to determine if it is a financially sound decision. This isn't about caring or not caring...it's about economics.

DVC doesn't operate restaurants (and our dues don't go toward operating restaurants) so the decision ultimately was with another branch of the company.

We can bemoan the economics all we wish but it's a key component of every Disney park, restaurant and resort. It would be great if every resort had character meals, a pool the size of SAB and monorail transportation, but we all know those won't happen. This situation is no different.

While people would use a CS location at Kidani, the real question is how much business would have been siphoned-off of other locations. If they open another restaurant and all it does is take business away from Sanaa, Mara, theme park restaurants and the resort general store (groceries), then it's a waste of money. To make sense, the restaurant would have to generate enough new business to sustain itself.

I'm not sure that SSR is a good parallel since the resort itself continued to expand. The Turf Club wasn't part of the original 550-room development. It was only after the plan expanded to nearly 900 rooms that The Turf Club was added. If not for those extra 6 buildings and the Treehouses, would there be a Turf Club today?

 

[TinkGirl]

dining plan

 

[LIFERBABE]

A family at the pool is not dining at the parks or Sanaa or Mara without considerable effort. Many are not leaving the pool area to go to another pool area to eat a quick bite.

As for Turf Club, it was added due to complaints by members staying at SSR early on. Jim Lewis made it a point in 2005 to say that DVC Management, was mistaken in their belief that members would utilize DTD for dining, but due to overwhelming complaint, Turf Club was added and opened in 2005 or 6 long before Carousel, Grandstand and THV opened to sustain it.

He used it as an indication that DVC listens to their membership and how quickly DVC reacted to the situation. Fast Forward 3 years and they make a similar decision to not include counter dining at Kidani.

It was also due to overwhelming request that the DDP was added for DVC Members. So we have a Dining Plan and nowhere to use counter service credits without considerable effort. Last month, the Grandstand Pool Bar at SSR was selling hot dogs. This at a resort that offers counter and TS service a much shorter walk away that Kidani to Mara.

It was decided prior to opening that Carousel and Grandstand would be part of SSR. The original resort maps and plans show both those areas as future additions. Those areas were always in the plans and announced on opening day of SSR that they would be completed. They reserved the option not to build in the original POS but they were far from afterthoughts.
THV is the only true expansion of the resort and the decision to add Turf Club came way ahead of the decision to add THV.

SSR had a need for a TS restaurant and Im glad they opened it.

For those that want counter service at Kidani, put your MBA away and write in to request it. It worked for SSR owners and it can work for us at AKV also.

 

[TLPL]

What about if they add a new building for CS restaturant by the pool area? maybe overlook the Samawati Spring Pool or maybe across from the front entrance of the resort (where the current smoking area/restroom located), it is just un-developed land right now, right?

 

[tjkraz]

A family at the pool is not dining at the parks or Sanaa or Mara without considerable effort. Many are not leaving the pool area to go to another pool area to eat a quick bite.

Food is already available at the Kidani pool bar.

As for Turf Club, it was added due to complaints by members staying at SSR early on. Jim Lewis made it a point in 2005 to say that DVC Management, was mistaken in their belief that members would utilize DTD for dining, but due to overwhelming complaint, Turf Club was added and opened in 2005 or 6 long before Carousel, Grandstand and THV opened to sustain it.

I'm sure you are quite correct about how the change was communicated. But that doesn't change the fact that Disney wouldn't have converted The Turf Club unless the numbers added up. Every single DVC member could write in daily and request monorail access to their resort, but Disney isn't going to cave to that request "due to member complaints." It still has to pass an economic acid test.

As for the timing, The Turf Club Bar & Grill opened in July 2006 and the first building in The Carousel followed three months later in October '06. All 18 buildings including The Carousel and The Grandstand were open by July 2007.

It was decided prior to opening that Carousel and Grandstand would be part of SSR. The original resort maps and plans show both those areas as future additions. Those areas were always in the plans and announced on opening day of SSR that they would be completed. They reserved the option not to build in the original POS but they were far from afterthoughts.
THV is the only true expansion of the resort and the decision to add Turf Club came way ahead of the decision to add THV.

We'll probably disagree to a point about the certainty of developing The Carousel and The Grandstand. Yes the land was listed in the POS as being legally part of SSR, but none of the materials given to members suggested that the land would be developed. Nor did Disney/DVC ever suggest it was a possibility. On opening day only Congress Park was available. The Springs and Paddock were listed as future construction--The Grandstand an The Carousel were not.

The decision to convert the Turf Club to a TS restaurant did not occur until after the commitment was made to add The Carousel and The Grandstand. The timing was no coincidence.

SSR had a need for a TS restaurant and Im glad they opened it.

I completely agree. However there is a significant gap between the 888 rooms at SSR and the 320 at Kidani.

Folks are welcome to share their feelings with DVC and I'll join you in hoping that there is some positive result. But I truly do see it as an uphill battle.

I don't see how the situation could be portrayed as a simple oversight on Disney's part--particularly after they supposedly "learned their lesson" with SSR. In this case it was a very calculated determination that 320 DVC villas can only support one restaurant.

It's a shame they didn't design the resort so that Sanaa could share a kitchen with a lunch counter like "Goods" at OKW. Maybe they could still retrofit something like that in the future. But again I'm forced to conclude that the option was presented somewhere in the design phases and they decided against it.

SSR had another advantage in that The Turf Club was there from Day One. It was originally designed as a lounge with much of the current seating area unused from the Disney Institute days. They were able to convert it to a full-blown restaurant without significant expense. Can the same be said for Kidani?

 

[LIFERBABE]

I was at SSR on opening day and prior for Member Homecoming and JL announced that Carousel and Grandstand would be built during the event due to the sales volume at SSR.

And yes all the materials for SSR indicated both Carousel and Grandstand on the maps. They were listed as future development, not part of the original offering but still fully indicated on all materials and maps. I purchased SSR when BCV was still selling and bought both BCV and SSR at the same time before BCV sold out and before ground was broken on SSR.

When I attended and stayed at SSR for Member Homecoming/Grand Opening, most of the Springs was completed. They were putting in furnishings in buildings closest to the main area. So Springs and Paddock were pretty much a done deal and Carousel and Paddocks were already listed as the next phases.

That was 2004, and JL and Al Weiss announced on stage together that the 2 areas would be developed based on sales on the lawn at DTD. In 2005 we attended the DVC Member cruise where JL discussed the addtion of the Turf Club based on Member feedback, during his presentation in the DCL Buena Vista Theatre.

Im sorry but paying for Private Dining including the gratuity and fees poolside is not "food available" nor does it address the ability to use counter service credits poolside or at Kidani proper. If I want Private Dining, then I want to eat in ummm PRIVATE! Using 2 TS credits for a snack at the pool is hardly membership friendly. A pool that is not a villa porch away but off to the side across a lobby and a parking lot. Room service delivery to the pool is not what I would call "food available" for the average member family.

And I dont think it was an "oversight" but a poor decision yet again by DVC management despite the history. They are waiting for "Member Response" just like they did at SSR and those that don't express their dissatisfaction are doing themselves and their home a huge disservice.

AKV is not

 

[Laurabearz]

If Kidani had a CS restaurant and offered the same breakfast platter that you can get at Roaring Fork (scrambled eggs, potatoes and toast) we would definitely eat breakfast there once or twice during our stay and maybe stop by for a sandwich for lunch as well. If all they offered was cold food at breakfast like they do at the lounges at some of the other resorts I would not be interested.

 

[tjkraz]

I was at SSR on opening day and prior for Member Homecoming and JL announced that Carousel and Grandstand would be built during the event due to the sales volume at SSR.

That I agree with. Disney announced they would build The Carousel and The Grandstand in May 2004 when the resort opened.

And yes all the materials for SSR indicated both Carousel and Grandstand on the maps. They were listed as future development, not part of the original offering but still fully indicated on all materials and maps.

There I have to disagree. Below is a scan of the original marketing materials we received for SSR in the fall of 2003. Congress Park is listed. Paddock and Springs are "proposed construction."

I also have to correct a comment I made earlier. I said that my POS made mention of the other land being part of SSR. I went back and looked at the POS and that statement was incorrect. The original POS made no mention of the land which is home to The Carousel, The Grandstand or the Treehouse Villas. That information was amended to the POS in a later draft--probably sometime after the May '04 announcement.

When I attended and stayed at SSR for Member Homecoming/Grand Opening, most of the Springs was completed. They were putting in furnishings in buildings closest to the main area. So Springs and Paddock were pretty much a done deal and Carousel and Paddocks were already listed as the next phases.

Again you're off on your timing.

On May 17, 2004 one building opened in Congress Park. The other three buildings in CP opened June, July and August of '04. If you saw furniture being moved into any rooms, those rooms were in Congress Park.

The buildings in The Springs and The Paddock did not begin to open until March 2005. Our first stay at SSR was December '04 and I have video of my son--them age 3--watching all of the construction trucks working on Springs and Paddock. They were definitely under construction throughout 2004, and many well into 2005.

Springs and Paddock opened, one building per month, from March to October 2005.

Carousel and Grandstand opened on an irregular schedule from October 2006 to July 2007.

The Turf Club Bar & Grill opened in July 2006.

Im sorry but paying for Private Dining including the gratuity and fees poolside is not "food available" nor does it address the ability to use counter service credits poolside or at Kidani proper. If I want Private Dining, then I want to eat in ummm PRIVATE! Using 2 TS credits for a snack at the pool is hardly membership friendly. A pool that is not a villa porch away but off to the side across a lobby and a parking lot. Room service delivery to the pool is not what I would call "food available" for the average member family.

Sounds like a more reasonable alternative is getting Disney to ditch this "private dining" thing and be more flexible with the dining credits....

And I dont think it was an "oversight" but a poor decision yet again by DVC management despite the history. They are waiting for "Member Response" just like they did at SSR and those that don't express their dissatisfaction are doing themselves and their home a huge disservice.

You're welcome to give me a big, fat "I told you so" if Disney does open another restaurant. But I still think it's fighting an uphill battle to get two restaurants in a 320-unit resort. Particularly with there being three more restaurants a short (albeit sometimes inconvenient) distance away.

 

[Silly Little Pixie]

All the disagreement about SSR aside...

Kidani does need a counter service restaurant. Period. The pool bar food option isn't reasonable for many people, either due to the food choices available, DDP credits, or the times it is open. Disney is in the business of making money, and I would bet that since they seem to make money on their other counter service locations, they could figure out how to make one at Kidani profitable as well. In fact, I am pretty sure that their restaurant services department could find a menu that enables profitablity. It's not like they don't charge us enough! However, we all know that sometimes the right people aren't asked the right questions as Disney builds things. If someone higher up suggested "we can save money up front by not building a counter service facility" it is entirely possible that the feasiblity studies were not handed off to the people who *could* make that work. Just sayin'.

The catch of course is where to build it. I think the idea of placing it in the "beads" by the Pembe savanna is a good idea. I plan to write to MS myself and suggest it. We all can relate to a long day in the parks, kids are having a meltdown, or getting drenched in a downpour... and the last thing you want to do is sit in a table service restaurant, or go fire up the grill to cook in your unit! (Or not at all if you are in a studio!) I would bet that many families would use it at least once per stay. That's probably more than will use Sanaa per stay. I also would suspect that guests at Kidani will skew a little younger (meaning those with young children) than at some other DVC resorts due to the animals. Again, a clientele more likely to use spur-of-the-moment counter service.

 

[tjkraz]

Kidani does need a counter service restaurant. Period. The pool bar food option isn't reasonable for many people, either due to the food choices available, DDP credits, or the times it is open. Disney is in the business of making money, and I would bet that since they seem to make money on their other counter service locations, they could figure out how to make one at Kidani profitable as well. n fact, I am pretty sure that their restaurant services department could find a menu that enables profitablity. It's not like they don't charge us enough!

Don't want to sound like a broken record so I'll just comment one more time and then drop out.

I believe a major issue is how much business a new CS would absorb from other nearby locations. If the majority of a new CS' customers are people who would otherwise have visited Mara, Sanaa, any theme park restaurant or bought groceries from the gift shop, then you're trading profitability of one location for another--while spending a lot on overhead. On its own the CS may be able to turn a profit, but if it negatively impacts the bottom line of Mara or Sanaa, then it still doesn't make sense.

And Disney really doesn't throw up restaurants at will and assume they will be profitable. There are a number of locations which operate seasonally like the Tomorrowland Noodle Station, Pirata y el Perico and I believe Studio Catering Company. Fountainview Cafe at Epcot has been seasonal in the past. Many of the little snack carts in the parks only operate during peak seasons and hours. And even the resort restaurants will have occasional adjustments to hours and meals served.

The catch of course is where to build it. I think the idea of placing it in the "beads" by the Pembe savanna is a good idea. I plan to write to MS myself and suggest it.

Might want to think twice about making the recommendation. As a practice, Disney destroys and/or returns any correspondence which offers specific operating advice for any aspect of the theme park empire. Seems they've been sued a few too many times by individuals who made a recommendation, saw it implemented, and then demanded a consulting fee in return for Disney taking their advice.

 

[jarestel]

For those that want counter service at Kidani, put your MBA away and write in to request it.

That's really the bottom line. CS at Kidani may still not happen based on the issues cited by other posters. It's a given though that not asking for CS pretty much guarantees it won't happen. Historically there have been times when prevailing wisdom has proven to be incorrect, Turf Club, AKL, and BLT to name a few. So, nothing ventured, nothing gained!

 

[pilferk]

I vote a resounding yes. It's the one "flaw" I see in the new building....it's not a HUGE one, and certainly not a fatal one.

As for "would it be worthwhile from a business perspective"....I think it might be. First off, I think it's something that many of guests are asking for...which would probably indicate there's some implied useage of the new facility. So, what it ultimately comes down to is how many customers are they losing, who would use a CS spot normally but don't want to make the trek to the Mara. That's the quantifiable amount you'd need to look at...because if you want one, but are perfectly willing and happy to make the trek over to the Mara EVERY time you want a CS meal, then for Disney you're not going to make them any more $$ than the current setup.

I think there IS a sizeable population who likely would make use of a CS if it were more convenient and who DON'T go to the Mara simply because it's "too far". But that's JMHO.

 

[goofydad99]

I think Kidani could use something. We have 3 children. Once they get to the pool there is not much that would budge them from it. We could realistically go to Jambo and use their cs option. However, as far as Goofydad is concerned if it takes any effort then it isn't worth it. It is easier for him to go to the villa and grab something than go to another building and buy food for 5 and then walk back. That is just our take.

In the end Disney will get less money from us.

 

[d-r]

it is probably closer walk from kidani to mara that from a lot of ssr rooms to artist palate. or a lot of old key west rooms to goods to go. or from a lot of boardwalk rooms to....the spoodles take out window?

When you bought the akv points they didn't say that they would have another qs.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

I believe a major issue is how much business a new CS would absorb from other nearby locations. If the majority of a new CS' customers are people who would otherwise have visited Mara, Sanaa, any theme park restaurant or bought groceries from the gift shop, then you're trading profitability of one location for another--while spending a lot on overhead. On its own the CS may be able to turn a profit, but if it negatively impacts the bottom line of Mara or Sanaa, then it still doesn't make sense.

I know you said your dropping out, but...

Is it not possible that AKV sales may suffer when guests realize there are very limited food options? I mean, isn't that kind of a selling point?

Now, I wouldn't know how to juggle the math, but it seems possible that the reduced sales at AKV could more than make up for the reduced sales at Mara..

Thoughts?

MG

 

[marvali]

Two additional comments.

The fact that no counter service was available had a lot to do with our going out the first day and stocking a lot more items in the kitchen (new super target, NOT overpriced items in the gift shop; only buy there if emergency) for those quick snacks/meals around our ADRs and schedules . We took advantage of Mara when we stayed at Jambo at New Years and had very little in the room because an easier choice was convenient.

I realize that decisions are more economic, and it may be true that Disney thinks about where existing food choices may be impacted instead of new business, BUT, isn't a new facility (Kidani) bringing in new potential customers just by nature (more rooms available so more people)? I'm not sure how more people in a resort location equates to lost business at an existing restaurant (especially since Sanaa isn't even open for breakfast and the meal choices there are so specialized that they don't appeal to everyone). I see that as more demand for food choices and more potential business for everyone, including a new CS/QS. The choices at the pool bar were not really an option, and we never considered spending $$$ there to eat.

Maybe they could open Sanaa at breakfast for limited items only (similar to the Roaring Forks platter mentioned) that would qualify for CS or snack credits as a possible solution that wouldn't require buildilng a new facility.

And BTW, I got a card in the mail to fill out a survey and give feedback, which I am definitely going to do, so not just commenting here instead of where it can possibly do some good.

 

[Silly Little Pixie]

Might want to think twice about making the recommendation. As a practice, Disney destroys and/or returns any correspondence which offers specific operating advice for any aspect of the theme park empire. Seems they've been sued a few too many times by individuals who made a recommendation, saw it implemented, and then demanded a consulting fee in return for Disney taking their advice.

That is so sad that people would do that! But, I believe it.

I went ahead and emailed regarding the possibility of adding a counter service at Kidani. Within a day I had an email confirmation. saying I would receive contact from DVC within 2 days. Saturday I got a phone call from MS, (I was not home, but she left a detailed message) letting me know that my concerns regarding adding a counter service option would be passed along up the chain of command. I was thanked kindly for taking the time to contact MS regarding improving their offerings at Kidani Village. I was surprised by the promptness of the email and the phone call. I did feel that my concern was being listened to.

If everyone that complains about it simply emails or calls, DVC will at least see that owners have a concern. (And have money they would like to spend.) Whether or not adding a c/s at some point is feasible or not- I do believe my concerns were listened to in a very polite manner, and probably will be passed along.