Help in choosing math class for son's Junior year in H.S.

[horner5]

Hi all!

My son has been in a fog this week and has talked to numerous math teachers and counselors and he still doesn't know what to do. Since the classes he takes are different than what I took, I don't know what direction to steer him in and I could use advice.

He is a sophomore and is finishing up Algebra 2 with a solid B all year. He absolutely detests the Trig portions of Algebra 2. The natural progression for him would be to take Trig next year (1 semester) with Statistics (1 semester) or take a full year of AP Stats or a full year of Pre-Calculus. I think the Trig might be a mistake and he's going to pursue a law career so we're nixing Pre-Calc. He does have a good solid background in math and it does come naturally to him, but I'm wondering if the AP Stats might be too much of a leap (and this is what he is leaning towards). This is the course description for the AP Stats...I never took Stats so I don't know what it entails:

E60 Advanced Placement Statistics 1 credit

One year, Advanced level of difficulty

Open to: Freshmen, Sophomores, Juniors, Seniors

The Advanced Placement Statistics course is an excellent option for any student who has successfully

completed a second-year course in algebra, and is planning on attending college, regardless

of intended college major. In college, at least one statistics course is typically required

for majors such as engineering, psychology, sociology, health science, and business. The purpose

of this course is to introduce students to the major concepts and tools for collecting, analyzing,

and drawing conclusions from data. Students are exposed to four broad conceptual themes:

-Exploring Data: Observing patterns and departures from patterns

-Planning a Study - Deciding what and how to measure

-Anticipating Patterns - Producing models using probability and simulation

- Statistical Inference - Confirming models


What would be most logical for him to do at this point? I really welcome all opinions!

Thanks!!

Amy

 

[addicted_to_WDW]

I'd encourage the natural progression of trig/stats, given that there are few people who will claim a love for trig and also because a 15 year old who plans to become a lawyer has many years to develop other interests and change his mind.

 

[ZephyrHawk]

Hello, hope I can help. For background, I'm an attorney. In high school I took a progression of algebra, trig, and AP calc. No statistics at my school. I enjoyed everything up until the calc. In undergrad I wanted to be a scientist, so I took calc (as little as possible) and statistics (which also turned out to be awful). So, what can I tell you:

You do not need math to become a lawyer, and certainly not calculus. However, what are the chances of your son actually becoming a lawyer? I'm not saying he doesn't have the talent for it, I'm sure he does. But he's 14(?). When I was that age I wanted to be a journalist. I had numerous career desires in between that time and going to law school. What is pretty clear is that he wants to go to college, and what he should be focusing on is: 1) What's going to catch the eye of recruiters at the school he wants to go to and 2) What does he NOT want to have to do once he's actually at college (i.e. try to AP out of as much as possible). As such, he's going to want to have a full course of traditional math (algebra through trig, sorry, but trig is the basis of soooo much in math that it's almost impossible to escape).

Does he need calculus? Well, not unless he wants to go into a math or science based field. And, if he does decide that's what he wants to do, colleges offer perfectly good calc programs. However, he's not going to find much in the way of college level trig classes. they generally assume you've got that much already. What about statistics? Personally, I feel statistics has a very limited scope of usefulness. I took it because it was required for my degree. And yes, it's useful in a scientific context....but seeing as how the entire class was pretty much structured on teaching us how to use statistical computer programs that do everything for us, I really fail to see the point. I dunno, maybe I had a bad experience.

Although some people say they're majoring in 'pre-law' in undergrad, there really isn't any such thing. Generally, it means they're studying English, but don't want to be teachers. If your son truly is interested in becoming a lawyer, this is my best advice for him: Do not go into college with that as your goal. Go in with the goal of getting a well rounded liberal arts education. He can move on to law school, should he still choose to do so after 4 years of higher education, from any undergraduate field. In the meantime, if he finds something else that strikes his passion, he won't feel as if he's pigeonholed himself into a 'law or bust' situation. For now, he should concentrate on classes that will give him a good background for entering into any field he might choose, and that will also impress the learned folks he'll be writing an application to in the near future.

Anyways, just my 2 cents. Take it for what you will.

 

[goodeats]

I thought you had to take four years of math? At least I did when I went to high school (graduated in 96). Maybe that was just to get into a competitive college? I would definitely recommend 4 years of math. I would do AP Stats and then Pre-Calc. I do remember thinking Pre Calc was easy compared to Trig. Although my teacher was better that year, so that may be why.

If he's going to go a non-science/math route in college, he can use his AP Stats test to get out of one of those classes. As long as he passes!

 

[powellrj]

I can't answer from a career standpoint, but my DS is a sophomore and took stats last semester and is taking trig this semester and he really liked his stats class and doesn't like trig at all. They only offer a semester of each or he would have just taken a year of stats.

You have to have 4 years of math and they count 8th grade algebra as algebra I. He took double math last year with algebra II and geometry so with his stats and trig this year he will be done with math classes.

He wants to be an arts major so while math is important, its not really as important in his career path as someone who is a math or science major.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

If he prefers the AP Stats, I would go for it. My dd is in 2 AP classes this year and while they are hard she prefers them.

Taking Trig when he detests it is probably not the best course.

 

[Crankyshank]

I wouldn't think of it from a career standpoint, I would think of it from a college standpoint. What colleges is he interested in? Check out their math requirements.

If the college requires stats for certain majors (my old college did for any major in the social studies track like history, psych, English), and accept AP credits, I would have him take stats.

If the college requires a basic math class, I would highly encourage pre-calc. As someone who is not a math person, has never gone higher than 3 levels of Algebra and geometry in HS and now has to take a math class in college that involves calculus, I really regret not taking pre-calc in high school so I would have some sort of background in it.

 

[horner5]

Thanks for all of your replies!!

He sat down with the counselor again today and they came up with a plan to do Trig (1 semester) and Intro to Stats (1 semester) to fulfill his Junior year. The requirements for his class (2009) in Michigan is that he only needs 2 years. They like to see the kids get through Algebra 2. He already took that this year, so he has a little wiggle room, although I am insistent on 4 years of Math. The Trig (although he hates it) will get him refreshed for the ACT this upcoming year. His senior year, he's probably going to take Personal Finance as his math course and his counselor is getting him an internship at a law firm the other semester.

Thanks again!!!

Amy

 

[juligrl]

As quoted by my friends who took AP math courses "AP doesn't mean you're smart, it means you're really dumb for taking the class!"
If he's not looking into a heavily math laden future, he'd probably be best just following the natural progression of courses and doing well in those without the added pressure of the AP course.

 

[golfgal]

While the state may require 2 years of math, many colleges are looking for at least 3 years and preferably 4 years. He could run into a situation where he might have to take a college level math class that may or may not be more difficult then the high school courses he can take AND you have to pay for the college class. What the counselors have suggested at every college planning/course planning information session we have attended is that if your child is going to go to college take the 4 year math track with the pre-calc/calc route. THey may are may not need that for a future career but they could need it to get into college.

 

[Simba's Mom]

I'd really recommend the Stats course, but then I used to teach Statistics in college, so I'm a little biased. But I taught Trig too. However, I found my knowledge of statistics to be useful in so many areas-engineering, understanding educational studies, medical studies, even understanding my latest bone density test! When they mentioned Z-score, I said "hey, we learned all about that in statistics." Like I said, I'm probably biased, but I'd go for the statistics.

 

[Coloradomom]

DD is taking AP Stats right now as a junior. (she is planning on going into nursing). It is about mid range tough, she is a high B student in math, not the best but can hold her own. She has found it challenging but not impossible. She is glad she took it as a junior, most of the class is seniors. Next year she is taking trig for a semester and I forget what else. I think after AP stats trig will not feel as bad!

 

[Just2554]

As a current college sophomore I have only this to say: No offense, but if your son doesn't take Pre-Calc in high school, he's nuts! Colleges require a math/quantification subrequirement; my college in particular requires intro to calculus and I'm a liberal arts major! Thank god I'm not too bad at math, but still, if I hadn't taken Pre-Calc in high school, I would have been in deep trouble.

Having to take calculus in college and never having looked at it before only means trouble. It means having to take lower math courses leading up to the Calculus class you need to take, which essentially means credits that count as nothing but building blocks (no electives, etc.). I strongly urge you not to rule out pre-calc, especially if your son is good at math.

Also, when it comes to college, a Statistics class is not really math. It's about application and interpretation of the deeper ideas and rules. The math part itself is secondary and semi-unimportant. And nobody takes Trig unless they're an engineering major or something similar.

Just think about it before you make any decisions.

 

[themarquis]

It will depend on what he will major in and what school he will go to ... basically, you want to think about what class(es) will fulfill college math requirements. He won't want to take classes that are not "useful" for him in terms of fulfilling a requirement or getting him ready for a standardized test. That would be a waste of time.

Some colleges will have some kind of general math requirement for all majors (depends on the school -- could include something like the equivalent of precalc) or passing a math entrance exam or getting a certain score on ACT/SAT math portion. Then ... if he will be majoring in the sciences, there will be more intense requirements (most likely including calculus). If he majors in the social sciences, there may be a calculus requirement, and there will definitely be a stats requirement. If he majors in the humanities/english, there may be no requirements.

*IF* the college he might go to will most likely require advanced math (calculus), then he needs to take the precalc, and hopefully do ap calculus his senior year, thus getting himself some college credit. Note that precalc often includes a very comprehensive review of trig (and other math subjects) -- so it could be an excellent prep for ACT.

If not, the trig is useful for the purposes of math entrance exams/ACT. The stats could give him college credit only *if* his major requires stats *and* the class he needs to take at college is satisfied by the AP exam (watch out -- sometimes the college will either not grant credit or not the right kind of credit -- as an example, I took AP physics, but it only gave me credit for a "general physics w/o calculus" class, not the "physics with calculus" I actually needed!) However, if you know he will have to do stats in college, even if he doesn't get credit for the AP exam (or doesn't pass it ), it could *help* him be more prepared for difficult college-level courses.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. I saw you just talked to a counselor. Keep in mind that something like "Personal Finance" might not be a college-prep class and/or might not be looked at as "serious" math by the college he applies to. Probably won't matter, but keep that in mind.

Also keep in mind the calculus issue ... *if* he will need to take calculus in college, but has only done algebra, trig, and "personal finance", he might be in trouble and have to take some preparatory classes at the college to get ready for calc (might be a lot of wasted time! I wouldn't recommend that route!)

 

[Green Tea]

In terms of applying to colleges, I'd say he needs the pre-calc. The strength of schedule os a HUGE factor in acceptance rates. They would rather see a B in the hardest AP class than an A in a regular CP course. The nore AP, Honors and Dual Enrollemtn, the better. College acceptance has changed since we were applying; there is a lot more to it and unfortunatley, a lot harder. DS go his SAT scores and on the paper was the infor from the colleges he asked that the scores be sent ot. One has a 19% acceptance rate and it is a school that would sort of self select applicants ( they are pretty upfront about criteria and those not in the mix wouldn't apply in droves) All things being equal, a college will take the kid with the hardest courses offered at the high school.

 

[golfgal]

As a current college sophomore I have only this to say: No offense, but if your son doesn't take Pre-Calc in high school, he's nuts! Colleges require a math/quantification subrequirement; my college in particular requires intro to calculus and I'm a liberal arts major! Thank god I'm not too bad at math, but still, if I hadn't taken Pre-Calc in high school, I would have been in deep trouble.

Having to take calculus in college and never having looked at it before only means trouble. It means having to take lower math courses leading up to the Calculus class you need to take, which essentially means credits that count as nothing but building blocks (no electives, etc.). I strongly urge you not to rule out pre-calc, especially if your son is good at math.

Also, when it comes to college, a Statistics class is not really math. It's about application and interpretation of the deeper ideas and rules. The math part itself is secondary and semi-unimportant. And nobody takes Trig unless they're an engineering major or something similar.

Just think about it before you make any decisions.

This is pretty much what they keep telling everyone at DS14's school too.


I would check with a couple colleges he could possibly attend and see what their math requirements are for acceptance and graduation and base your decision on that. Again, you could be an Art History major in college and still need to take a high level math class to meet your graduation requirement.