FP + What we know and what we want to know

[Mkrop]

Why wouldn't you simply relinquish your AK FP+s and see about getting some same-day FP+s for those Epcot rides? Sure, they may no longer be available, but that's exactly the same situation that you would be in with the old FP system.
e.

It is not the same as the old system. In the old system, on a rainy day, I would just not go to AK, hit up Epcot(or wherever) and get my FPs. If they dont do they same day FP+ or there are none left when I log on (how early would I have to log on) right now I get there at rope drop, ride and get a FP for later, in the new system I would have to log on when? and hope that they are still some Soarin FPs.

I also lost the quote about meeting family. But if I am meeting with family from FL at the last minute, the whole point is to ride rides TOGETHER, which we could do under the old system. We would meet at the park or at the resort, all enter together and pull FPs together. Now if I have to book mine early then we can ride but they cant. Or we take our chances that there will be same day FP+ so we can ride together only to find out they are gone. This would never have happen under the old system unless we waited until later in the day.

 

[seashoreCM]

I'm not sure why there are so many assumptions about FP+ causing standby lines to get longer. FP+ does not change the capacity of the attraction. The same number of people will go through the attraction.

I am guessing that once the system gets going the total of FP and FP+ issued for each hour will be somewhat greater than last year's number of FP (only) issued for each hour.

Should (regular) FP go away then it is certainly possible for a same-day FP+ reservation to suggest or assign the "earliest possible" time slot still available which then mimics regular FP.

 

[mousermerf]

And before says "but the rides are maxed out.."

No, typically they are not. Test Track runs with fewer vehicles than its maximum capacity almost every day of the year despite 2-3 hour waits.

 

[doconeill]

I am guessing that once the system gets going the total of FP and FP+ issued for each hour will be somewhat greater than last year's number of FP (only) issued for each hour.

Should (regular) FP go away then it is certainly possible for a same-day FP+ reservation to suggest or assign the "earliest possible" time slot still available which then mimics regular FP.

But I don't see why the total number of FP and FP+ will be greater than FP alone. My assumption is that when a FP+ is obtained, a corresponding FP is removed.

If they thought that the attraction could tolerate more reservations, be it via FP or FP+, they likely would have already added more FPs to the attraction to see the effects.

 

[mousermerf]

It is not the same as the old system. In the old system, on a rainy day, I would just not go to AK, hit up Epcot(or wherever) and get my FPs. If they dont do they same day FP+ or there are none left when I log on (how early would I have to log on) right now I get there at rope drop, ride and get a FP for later, in the new system I would have to log on when? and hope that they are still some Soarin FPs.

I also lost the quote about meeting family. But if I am meeting with family from FL at the last minute, the whole point is to ride rides TOGETHER, which we could do under the old system. We would meet at the park or at the resort, all enter together and pull FPs together. Now if I have to book mine early then we can ride but they cant. Or we take our chances that there will be same day FP+ so we can ride together only to find out they are gone. This would never have happen under the old system unless we waited until later in the day.

They can buy their tickets in advance, be in your travel party on the MyMagic+ website, and have their tickets entered into the system and be able to book in advance.

No one is stopping anyone from buying tickets in advance. It IS possible.

 

[mousermerf]

But I don't see why the total number of FP and FP+ will be greater than FP alone. My assumption is that when a FP+ is obtained, a corresponding FP is removed.

If they thought that the attraction could tolerate more reservations, be it via FP or FP+, they likely would have already added more FPs to the attraction to see the effects.

See my post above - they already did. And yes, FP+ removes FP inventory.

 

[Boski]

The gap between the two numbers is known as Utilization. It's a percentage - the percentage of THRC actually achieved via the OHRC. Disney considers rides with very low utilization levels to be strains on their operational budgets. They do, already, change the number of operational units (and thereby change the THRC) to match predicted crowd levels. This allows them to do maintenance work on vehicles, staff lower, and etc..

Exactly, and FP+ will allow them to further this practice even more. They'll know and be able to control how many people are riding and when they are riding based on how many FP+s they allowed distributed. Need to work on SM? No prob simply not allow any FP+ for the morning so the maint. crew can finish up from the night. Then they'll put a sign up in the stand by line saying its down. What only X number of people have FP+s for BTMRR today, guess we only need to have 1 line operating.

 

[doconeill]

And before says "but the rides are maxed out.."

No, typically they are not. Test Track runs with fewer vehicles than its maximum capacity almost every day of the year despite 2-3 hour waits.

I think Test Track might be a bad example, given it's maintenance issues. Like I said in an earlier post, they can remove vehicles from the system for maintenance reasons, reduce wear and tear, etc. There may also be extra vehicles that they have on standby in case another vehicle has an issue, but it is unclear if the system could support those additional vehicles safely if they didn't remove another. I don't know all the specs of Test Track.

I agree with the whole "acceptable wait" thing. They will adjust capacity in the ways they can when it is possible to:

1) Save on personnel costs - say, by shutting down one of the departure bays at Space Mountain and eliminating several positions for the time.

2) Save on maintenance costs induced by wear and tear - by the same measures, or removing vehicles when possible, or simply running it less.

A minimal wait of 30-60 minutes at an E-ticket is generally acceptable when they can make those savings.

But that's why I kept saying "at peak times". They better not be shutting a bay down at SM or a concourse at Soarin' if the wait time is four hours...

 

[mousermerf]

Exactly, and FP+ will allow them to further this practice even more. They'll know and be able to control how many people are riding and when they are riding based on how many FP+s they allowed distributed. Need to work on SM? No prob simply not allow any FP+ for the morning so the maint. crew can finish up from the night. Then they'll put a sign up in the stand by line saying its down. What only X number of people have FP+s for BTMRR today, guess we only need to have 1 line operating.

And the very nature of the FP+ system will drive guests to under-utilized attractions with fixed THRC's and increase their OHRC and utilization percentage.

No more full staffing of Spaceship Earth for it to be a walk on from 3pm to close.

 

[doconeill]

See my post above - they already did. And yes, FP+ removes FP inventory.

So, wait...you're saying I'm right?

 

[seashoreCM]

And before says "but the rides are maxed out.."

No, typically they are not. Test Track runs with fewer vehicles than its maximum capacity almost every day of the year despite 2-3 hour waits.

There must be a reason why.

For example they have reached the point where adding one or two more vehicles does not increase capacity. Due to irregularities in loading time, the extra vehicles would do nothing besides increase the queue of vehicles at the end of the ride waiting to unload.

 

[mousermerf]

I think Test Track might be a bad example, given it's maintenance issues. Like I said in an earlier post, they can remove vehicles from the system for maintenance reasons, reduce wear and tear, etc. There may also be extra vehicles that they have on standby in case another vehicle has an issue, but it is unclear if the system could support those additional vehicles safely if they didn't remove another. I don't know all the specs of Test Track.

I agree with the whole "acceptable wait" thing. They will adjust capacity in the ways they can when it is possible to:

1) Save on personnel costs - say, by shutting down one of the departure bays at Space Mountain and eliminating several positions for the time.

2) Save on maintenance costs induced by wear and tear - by the same measures, or removing vehicles when possible, or simply running it less.

A minimal wait of 30-60 minutes at an E-ticket is generally acceptable when they can make those savings.

But that's why I kept saying "at peak times". They better not be shutting a bay down at SM or a concourse at Soarin' if the wait time is four hours...

The bigger example is Star Tours. With a 60min wait Disney considers it perfectly acceptable to have 2 of the Speeders closed. With four speeder operating the THRC is something like 1916 (4 vehicles, 5minXXsec show, 40 riders per vehicle.) So an hour long line is about 2000 people.. and if you turn on the other two Speeders, they suck up an additional 1000 guests an hour.

So you're waiting like 30mins or so because Disney doesn't want to pay for the staff. That happens frequently, like almost daily at that attraction. I'm using an hour wait as an example, but even at 15mins it could often be a total walk-on if they had more vehicles operating.

 

[mousermerf]

There must be a reason why.

For example they have reached the point where adding one or two more vehicles does not increase capacity. Due to irregularities in loading time, the extra vehicles would do nothing besides increase the queue of vehicles at the end of the ride waiting to unload.

It takes more staff to work on the vehicles overnight and more staff to keep the load/unload going as efficiently as required. It can and does operate at full capacity sometimes.

 

[mousermerf]

And Disney will ride the margin as long as it can without getting caught and called out for it.

I worked Body Wars before it closed. From the nine original positions they cut the staff down to two CMs. That's fewer than ANY operational guideline suggests. One loaded the vehicle, one watched the flight from the tower. This was done despite the line climbing to an hour.. with no one out front at Greeter to even change the wait time sign or tell guests their child was too short (Load screened immediately before boarding), no one to open the wheelchair accessible queue, no one to assist motion sick guests in the exit hallway, and no one to fly another vehicle if the one that was being used suddenly stopped due to a breakdown.

Disney will do what it wants to save money.

 

[UNCFanatik]

And Disney will ride the margin as long as it can without getting caught and called out for it.

I worked Body Wars before it closed. From the nine original positions they cut the staff down to two CMs. That's fewer than ANY operational guideline suggests. One loaded the vehicle, one watched the flight from the tower. This was done despite the line climbing to an hour.. with no one out front at Greeter to even change the wait time sign or tell guests their child was too short (Load screened immediately before boarding), no one to open the wheelchair accessible queue, no one to assist motion sick guests in the exit hallway, and no one to fly another vehicle if the one that was being used suddenly stopped due to a breakdown.

Disney will do what it wants to save money.

Thanks for the insight. Was the information I was looking for other than hearing people speculate about maximum ride capacities and Disney not being able to do anything to increase capacity on their attractions.

 

[mousermerf]

Another example.. "film based" attractions running on half hour or even twenty or ten minute schedules. They are not that long and designed to run continuously, with one group of guests leaving as the next enters.. not a gap where no one is entering. This is done at most all of them because Disney doesn't feel the utilization is high enough.

Same for shows like Voyage of the Little Mermaid.

 

[WillAustin]

Disney will do what it wants to save money.

I guess we can expect more ride downtime.

 

[mousermerf]

I guess we can expect more ride downtime.

In the early aughts Epcot tested eliminating Greeters from all attractions to reduce staffing costs. It was intended to be a two week test period during the slow season.

At the 32 hour mark the part-time CMs who had their hours cut were being called en masse by the shceduling department and begged to report to work immediately. Guests had caused he closure of multiple attractions due to intrusions, there were several accidents (including the mirrored ceiling at the Universe of Energy collapsing onto a group of unwatched guests - thus no one to call for help), no heights were pre-screened, no one kept food or drink out of the queues or preshows, and no one could tell people what the rides were or what they entailed.. dark, loud, seizure causing flashing.. and there was no one around to directly wheelchair traffic that couldn't take the mainstream queue. The remaining staff had simply walked out at a few rides even.

The park had, quite simply, ceased to function.

 

[bcrook]

Thanks for the insight. Was the information I was looking for other than hearing people speculate about maximum ride capacities and Disney not being able to do anything to increase capacity on their attractions.

My apologies! This turned out to be a interesting conversation and no riot... thanks to the cool logic of the participants. I can imagine a not so civil round of discourse.

 

[Mkrop]

They can buy their tickets in advance, be in your travel party on the MyMagic+ website, and have their tickets entered into the system and be able to book in advance.

No one is stopping anyone from buying tickets in advance. It IS possible.

But they usually decided the NIGHT before based on their schedule, it was a LAST minute decision. They bought their tickets at the gate, Now if they call the night before we will have to stop what we are doing to get everyone online to see if there are an FP+ available and they have to buy tickets the night before.

It messes up last minute locals from enjoying the parks, they already struggle to get last minute ADRs at popular places.