Disney/Universal - competing technologies?

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Bob O
Mission space isnt open so the quality of the ride is in doubt until we have actual reports from people who have ridden it. We allheard how great TT was supposed to be and it didnt live up to all the hype so time will tell if mission space is the great attractionwe all hope that it is. As for everst, lets wait and see till the ride is actually built and running till one sings its praises.

Then perhaps we shouldn't judge Shrek or Neutron until they open either.

As for Universal classics, only time will tell but i think Spiderman will be a classic as will both Hulk and DD.

When I think of a "classic" ride, I think of something non-descript and something that is timeless and ageless. In a few years there will be coasters produced that will out-do, outshine, and outperform both Hulk and DD. As for Spiderman, its to specific, to descript. The same with Spiderman, a technology will came along that will make Spiderman (and Dinosaur and Indy for that matter) look out-dated. Granted it is running strong on the strength of its comic book superhero, but who is to say in a few years that people will remember who Spiderman is? The comic books may stop, the movie franchise will have dried up, etc...
The Haunted Mansion and Pirates are the kinds of non-descript attractions that still "wow" people many years later.

Flight of fear at paramounts parks and several rides with a joker theme at Six Flags park.

All of these coasters are manufactured by Premier Rides, so perhaps Vekoma have a valid reason for not converting over to lap bars.

Many people consider Kong a classic attraction that was produced by Universal.

If it is considered a "classic" and loved by so many, then why replace it? IMHO, I hardly consider a ride that was around for a little more then a decade a "classic" ride.

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan

If it is considered a "classic" and loved by so many, then why replace it? IMHO, I hardly consider a ride that was around for a little more then a decade a "classic" ride.

From what I understand it was costing a fortune to keep it open. It was become very hard to repair. Universal did not have the benefit of cannibalizing other attractions to keep it open (like Disney has ) so that and in an effort to keep the part up to date they chose to replace it.

Sure Disney has "Classics" but are they only classics to those that enjoyed them when they were best things going? I wonder how many first time visitors to Disney that have also been to other theme parks rank POTC very high on their "must do" list?

Why must there be an age restriction for the ride to become a "classic"?


Oh Jimmy Nutron is open and reviews say that its better then the old Hanna version.

 

[ChrisFL]

One thing about IOA's coasters...

How long of a ride is RnRc? I believe it's 1:30 seconds.

That's a heck of a short time if you've been waiting for 2 hours in line.

Universal had a choice to make. They could:

A.) Build a smaller, enclosed coaster that people would only say they copied Disney with

OR

B.) Make large, world-class coasters that Orlando was SERIOUSLY lacking, and that had unique experiences and technologies.

See, the problem is, unlike Space Mountain, who's top speed is 27mph, RnRc goes to ~60mph. What does that mean? That the faster you go, the shorter the ride duration, which means you'd need more track.

If you need more track, suddenly you need a larger building...etc. etc. Try to picture Universal attempting to put a big ugly building over Hulk. It might work for the guests inside, but it would be an eyesore for the rest of the park, not to mention, incredibly cost-prohibitive.

Yes, Hulk and DD are both highly rated in many coaster enthusiast polls. Hulk IS unique with the first elements of the ride. Dueling Dragons come within 12 inches of each other, and I have not seen any other dueling coasters to date that does that.

I will agree that, technically Hulk is a LOT like Kumba at Busch Gardens, but Hulk is still more exciting to me by far.

RnRc is just a regular coaster in the dark with cardboard-looking cutouts and neon paint. Is that a bad thing? Not really if you're flying by at 50 mph. And the music is an original idea. I like it, but it's not even close to Hulk.

Again, there are a lot of coaster freaks out there who had nothing to do with Orlando, until IOA came along. Universal saw a market that wasn't fufilled and created something for it.

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by EUROPA
Universal did not have the benefit of cannibalizing other attractions to keep it open (like Disney has ) so that and in an effort to keep the part up to date they chose to replace it.

They don't? And what Disney attractions do you speak of?

I wonder how many first time visitors to Disney that have also been to other theme parks rank POTC very high on their "must do" list?

I would say quite a few. HM and PotC are always rated as "must sees" in almost any guide book that I've read, official or unofficial.

Why must there be an age restriction for the ride to become a "classic"?

Not trying to say that there is.... but.... if you do have a ride that stands the test of time. Much like the example that you stated, perhaps Kong was becoming to expensive to maintain and repair, eventually the same problem will be run into with DD and Hulk. Coasters get old, rough, need to be replaced and become higher costs to maintain. The animatronics on Pirates were years ahead of their time and in some regards still ahead of what you find at most parks, including Universal, today.

Oh Jimmy Nutron is open and reviews say that its better then the old Hanna version.

A motion simulator themed to Jimmy Neutron isn't going to cause me to want to spend the extra $50 bucks to go to USO, but that is just my take on it.

How long of a ride is RnRc? I believe it's 1:30 seconds.

Versus 2:15 for Hulk which includes a 20 second delay for load/unload, this making the ride itself 1:55 seconds.

If you need more track, suddenly you need a larger building...etc. etc.

The Hulk is only 297 feet longer then RnRC. Just for the record...

 

[eclipseSD]

[off topic]Frankly, POTC at WDW is not that good a ride. I wouldn't give a damn if they replaced it

POTC at DL, on the other hand, should never be touched.



[/off topic]

 

[ChrisFL]

Heh, I just checked Thrillride.com and it has the time for RnRc at 1:22 seconds

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan

They don't? And what Disney attractions do you speak of?

No they do not...Kong from what I understand had a huge number of custom parts that were never really mass produced.

You didn't know that most of Horizons ended up as replacement parts for POTC?

I would say quite a few. HM and PotC are always rated as "must sees" in almost any guide book that I've read, official or unofficial.

Are these guide books written by first time visistors after a day in the park? Take a 10-15 year old put them on POTC and then put them on Spiderman which when built were/are the premimere dark rides of their time. Now which one do you think that kid is going to want to do again? Which one do you think the kid will say is lame? To that kid Spiderman will become the "Classic".

Now is POTC a "classic" becuase of what it is/was or is it a "classic" becuase we are told so?

Not trying to say that there is.... but.... if you do have a ride that stands the test of time. Much like the example that you stated, perhaps Kong was becoming to expensive to maintain and repair, eventually the same problem will be run into with DD and Hulk. Coasters get old, rough, need to be replaced and become higher costs to maintain.

Just like many people thought that 20,000 Leagues was a classic. Sometimes the repair bill outweighs the benefit of replacing it. Or in Disney's case leaving the space empty.

Any way you slice it, I like Universal approach to update the attraction and make it better then what was there before. Yes its very easy to replace a Coaster. When its time comes for something new and better I don't have a problem with it being replaced. Yes it will be sentimental and many people will miss the attraction but that is just part of it.

A motion simulator themed to Jimmy Neutron isn't going to cause me to want to spend the extra $50 bucks to go to USO, but that is just my take on it.

Well I hope not. I would not spend 50 dollars to ride POTC either.

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by EUROPA
You didn't know that most of Horizons ended up as replacement parts for POTC?

Sure. And America Sings has shown up in some forms as Splash Mountain, if you could recycle unused materials.... why wouldn't you?

Are these guide books written by first time visistors after a day in the park?

I have two in my possession. One is the official guide which of course says that it is a must-see. But the other one is an unofficial guide which still rates as a "must-see" and considered it a headliner attraction.

Take a 10-15 year old put them on POTC and then put them on Spiderman which when built were/are the premimere dark rides of their time. Now which one do you think that kid is going to want to do again?

Depends on the kid. Don't assume because of age that they are going to be all about thrill rides. Dependant on their attitude and likes/dislikes they may prefer Pirates over Spidey.

Now is POTC a "classic" becuase of what it is/was or is it a "classic" becuase we are told so?

No, because for its age it is still one of the most elaborately and imaginative attractions ever designed.

Well I hope not. I would not spend 50 dollars to ride POTC either.

I wouldn't expect you to. But you can't compare Pirates to Neutron. Universal is attempting to pass this off as a "new" reason to come to the park, which it isn't for me. Pirates isn't trying to pass itself off as a reason to go to Disney.

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by EUROPA
Your missing the point. Are they must sees because of sentimentally or would a someone with a fresh perspective really seem them as Classic must do's? I submit they don't.

I don't think I am. Not everyone is awed or "wowed" by giant thrill rides or roller coasters. I think that if you are visiting MK for the first time, that Pirates would be on the list of attractions that you would want to do. Not, "let's do the mountains and Haunted Mansion.... Pirates? What's that... let's skip that."

In fact both are written by people that have been to Disney many..many times. Because of sentimentally people develop what I like to call "Disney Goggles" and really lose perspective.

Perspective? SentimentalIty you mean? The animatronics at Pirates still outdo anything that Universal has to offer. Jurrasic Park? Yes, the dinosaurs are impressive, but no more impressive then the animatronics in Pirates which debuted YEARS ago.

Overall what you do you really think that percentage would be?

Well speaking from personal experience. Last May I went to Disney with my 18 year old, younger brother, we went to both Disney parks and IOA. We had done Disney as a family years ago, and he hadn't been back since. My brother was impressed by Spiderman, but mention Pirates around him and he still says that it is one of his most favorite rides. Granted, its anyone's guess what the percentage might/could be, but I doubt anyone is going to start a research study about it.

Just like Disney is going to do with "Mickey's PhilharMagic".

I never mentioned this particular attraction did I? So don't put words in my mouth, I don't appreciate it. If you wanted my opinion on how I feel about Disney's replacement attractions you should have asked, not assumed.

Heck Disney added a giant hat and a new parade and billed it as a almost two year long event.

This was a 4 park celebration, not a one small ride event, that showcased the magic that Disney brought to many people's lives. Did you miss the "One Man's Dream Exhibit"? It wasn't about the hat or the parade, it was a celebration of the magic of Walt Disney.

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan

I don't think I am.

Yes you are.

Perspective? SentimentalIty you mean? The animatronics at Pirates still outdo anything that Universal has to offer. Jurrasic Park? Yes, the dinosaurs are impressive, but no more impressive then the animatronics in Pirates which debuted YEARS ago.

All personal opnions that I'm sure many people will agree with and disagree with. Try it without the Disney Goggles.

Well speaking from personal experience. Last May I went to Disney with my 18 year old, younger brother, we went to both Disney parks and IOA. We had done Disney as a family years ago, and he hadn't been back since. My brother was impressed by Spiderman, but mention Pirates around him and he still says that it is one of his most favorite rides. Granted, its anyone's guess what the percentage might/could be, but I doubt anyone is going to start a research study about it.

...and I can give you they 180 degree spin to that one.

There is no need for a personal attack. It's rude.


I never mentioned this particular attraction did I? So don't put words in my mouth, I don't appreciate it. If you wanted my opinion on how I feel about Disney's replacement attractions you should have asked, not assumed.

This was a 4 park celebration, not a one small ride event, that showcased the magic that Disney brought to many people's lives. Did you miss the "One Man's Dream Exhibit"?

It seemed clear that you would defend any attraction put forth by Disney; I do not need to ask you about every attraction. It would become tedious. The fact that you were attacking Universal for doing the exact same thing that Disney does and will do in the near future led me to that. Sorry if you "felt" like it was a personal attack. I have doubts about that as well. How about we say...glibness

Yes a huge 4-park celebration at that. We were very impressed with the new paper plates and napkins they developed to celebrate. Yes I did see where they dragged out some of Walt's old stuff and models of the park. It was very impressive.

 

[Planogirl]

Actually, there are a few coasters that are quite old and labeled as classics. We even have one here in Dallas at Six Flags and I personally love the old thing. Then there's the one at Coney Island and so on. It's all a matter of perspective.

And continually bashing Universal won't convince anyone that certain things at Disney are more "classic" than at Universal. With that, I'm outta here!

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by EUROPA
Yes you are.

Are we 5? Did I not see the sandox on the way in?

Try it without the Disney Goggles.

I am. But perhaps you should try viewing things without your "Universal Goggles" either.

...and I can give you they 180 degree spin to that one.

And that just proves the point. There is no accurate decision to which ride (Pirates or Spidey) a teenager would like, just because they are a teenager doesn't mean they are all about thrill rides, on the flip side, just because they are a teenager doesn't mean they don't like a dark boat ride.

will do in the near future led me to that.

Can I borrow your crystal ball? I want the lottery numbers for next week.

Sorry if you "felt" like it was a personal attack.

Seems that a moderator agreed with me also.

I have doubts about that as well. How about we say...glibness

*yawn* Why do I feel like I've been here with you before?

Yes I did see where they dragged out some of Walt's old stuff and models of the park. It was very impressive.

Glad you liked it. I can't wait to see the display of Vivendi's CEO, should be equally as impressive.

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan
next week.

Seems that a moderator agreed with me also.

I would not brag about that.

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by EUROPA
I would not brag about that.

Who's bragging? It has become quite apparent and very clear that you need to have the last word in any of your encounters. So I'll give into whatever "need" of yours that is to be fulfilled...... so you can post after this and fill that desire. Have a good day.

 

[lrodk]

For the sake of the integrity of the forum I ask that any personal disagreements be conveyed via pm either to myself or Sarangel. FYI, the post HauntedMansion is referring to was accidently removed. My intent, which I conveyed to Europa, was to edit part of the message. I inadvertantly moved it instead, and for some reason I can't get it back. We should leave it at that and get on with the discussion. My apologies to all who were affected.

 

[YoHo]

At the risk of making things worse.

At Disneyland, Pirates of the Caribbean is the Number 1 attraction in the park in terms of number of guests riding it per year.

NUMBER 1

Disneyland is the Number 1 Themepark IN THE U.S. It has the most visitors of any single Theme park in the country.

Therefore, The answer to the Question Is Pirates still a popular ride or is it just a classic that the foggey's ride is, YES, Pirates of the Caribbean is an extremely popular ride with people of all ages, so Popular that it is the most popular ride in the most popular Park in the U.S.


So put that in your Rollercoaster and Smoke it!



(Note, the above sentence is meant in jest, not to offend anyone.)

 

[Bob O]

HMF-I havent judged Shrek/Neutron because i havent been on either ride or heard any reports(though i will say they should have kept hitchcock and put shrek somdewhere else).
Their are numerous classic coasters, just as their are classic dark rides like HM/POTC etc. Most of them are wooden coasters due to their age but classics come in every ride catageroy be they coasters/dark rides/carousels. Coasters if maintained properly can run as long as dark rides and still not be outdone by newer rides which may be faster but still not have allthe elements that make a great coaster. As for vekoma not getting rid of the restraints is just another example of their inept product!!! They would perfer to headbang the guests than add to the ride experience.
As for what rides are good or not good, the last thing i would use is a guide book be it disney spin in their version or the so-called unofficial guide books. These books rate almost every attraction good and rarely are honest and say a ride "sucks".


And in ending some will defend disney no matter what they do and will say anything disney does is great because it has a disney trademark/name attached to it. And because sadly this mindset is their disney doesnt feel the need of late to improve their parks and will continue to build medicore rides and reduce hours etc because some people will buy into anything disney gives them and say it is great.

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Bob O
And in ending some will defend disney no matter what they do and will say anything disney does is great because it has a disney trademark/name attached to it. And because sadly this mindset is their disney doesnt feel the need of late to improve their parks and will continue to build medicore rides and reduce hours etc because some people will buy into anything disney gives them and say it is great.

I will agree with you on this. Because I have a love for Disney, I will defend it, to a point. But just like you said at the end of this statement, I whole-heartedly agree. Disney does need to build up their parks, Epcot is a mess and Animal Kingdom NEEDS Everest. Even MGM could use a few smaller things or another major live show at least. Magic Kingdom is good for now on attractions, they just need to stay on top of their upkeep. Some paint and spackle works wonders.

 

[OnWithTheShow]

Just some info, with the exception of technical difficulties the posted wait times at Rock n Roller Coaster seldom exceed 50 minutes even on capacity days. In reality most posted waits at coaster are 10-15 minutes less. Doctor Doom is a 30 second attraction with waits averaging 90 minutes on capacity days.

 

[Sarangel]

OK, Gang, this has gone on long enough. One of the rules about posting on the DIS is that personal attacks on individuals are not permitted. This includes name calling. Since I've removed 3 instances of that from this thread and Luis has removed one, I'm closing it.

I'm not saying that you can't disagree on whether B&M or Venkoma are better coaster builders, or whether Disney or Universal provide better value for your dollar, but you need to disagree with the points raised, not call each other names.

You may re-visit the topic in a new thread, provided you discuss it in a polite fashion.

Sarangel