Disney/Universal - competing technologies?

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by EUROPA
Bet you can't find one coaster with the same layout as the Hulk. Go ahead check every Six Flags out there.

After the launch it is just like almost every other B&M coaster out there, giant loop, cobra rolls, corkscrews, smaller loop, helix..... etc.... the same with Dueling Dragons, you take away the other dragon and you have "Batman: The Ride" just like at almost every Six Flags park.

With Disney you get a nice big building around it with neon signs.

I guess I missed the neon signs on Space Mountain, BTMRR, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Peril...... perhaps you could point them out to me.

 

[Dznefreek]

When you get down to it Disney has invented very few ride technologies. They just took what was available and either improved it or themed to it.

 

[pheneix]

>>>They may have bought better coasters but there was no attempt the theme them other than the queue.<<<

That is somewhat true (Dueling Dragons did have some very nice landscaping back in 1999), but as a coaster both the Hulk and Dueling Dragons run circles around RnRC. After the launch and sea serpent element, RnRC is a borefest.

BTW, while we are bashing Universal for only building a "coaster," lets not forget California Screamin at DCA. For all of the little "supports" that adorn the track, it tries to be nothing more than a standard roller coaster. Its queue is also little more than switchbacks too.

>>>A "standard" that will still the first in its class for Vekoma<<<

For a company that has 30 clones each of boomerangs and SLCs and whose "achievements" include Deja Vu and Rhino Rally, that is not saying much at all. The ONLY good product that Vekoma has ever contributed to this industry is the flying coaster, and B&M has produced a much better version of it BY FAR.

>>>Wow... who would have thought that Space Mountain at DLP was total trash.<<<

According to some of the "rumors" that discuss how the ride is a total ***** to maintain, I would tend to agree that the coaster construction is total trash.

>>>I hope that Vekoma's new work on Space Mountain at Hong Kong Disneyland doesn't suffer the same fate.<<<

Intamin is working on the new Space Mountains for Disney.

>>>Vekoma along with Arrow have always been leaders in roller coaster design and technology.<<<

PLEASE go to the Westcoaster Message Boards and post that.

>>>the same with Dueling Dragons, you take away the other dragon and you have "Batman: The Ride" just like at almost every Six Flags park<<<

The design of Dueling Dragons is on a whole another PLANET from Batman. Both of these coasters were designed to enhance each other, and have many improvements that you will not find at any Six Flags park.

BTW, to put the Six Flags comparisons to rest, take a look at how the Hulk stands up to Six Flags new pride and joy, Scream!

Hulkster:

http://www.rcdb.com/installationgallery557.htm

Scream:

http://www.westcoaster.net/update.php?id=0408033

 

[Planogirl]

When did WDW start competing with Six Flags on these boards?

Whatever one says about who designed what when , I can say that the queue of Dueling Dragons is really amazing and head and shoulders above any coaster queue I've seen so far.

 

[Bob O]

RNRC is a cloned coaster that!!!! The orignial design first appeared in a Six Flags park and RNRC is a clone of that coaster and isnt orignal in the least!!!! Disney used a cloned design because they were too cheap to pay for something new and unique. Sorry but RNRC wasnt debuted at MGM at all but is a standard Vekoma launched coaster, if they were going to use a cloned desgin there are much better coasters that could have been cloned.
While DD was the FIRST dueling inverted steeel coaster and their is no coaster like it anywhere in the world, a true orginal design and coaster, like disney used to do. As for Hulk it is the first and only coaster to use its unique launch system and its track layout again is unique and can be found nowhere else in the world!!
Both coasters can be found no where else in the world. As for so called one trick pony's they are both ranked in numerous polls in the coaster enthusaist community as world class coasters while RNRC will never have to worry about receving that type of honor!!!!
So i guess we know which park uses Six Flags coasters and which doesnt. As for coasters, if you are talking about Superman Ride of Steel type coaster which is found at several Six Flags parks(by the way a truely great ride that would be a major inprovement over any coaster on disney property) it is built by Intamin and not Vekoma which is regarded as a producer of rough riding coasters and not looked upon highly at all unless you enjoy head rattling coasters!!!
As for Calif Screamin it is sad that a company would build a supposedly old area of the park based on a yesteryear era and then is too cheap to build a wooden coaster but instead builds a steel coaster to look like a wooden coaster. If they wanted realism and were concerned about it they would have built a classic wooden coaster which was big in that era rather than another coaster that was medicore at best!!!

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by pheneix

Intamin is working on the new Space Mountains for Disney.

I beg to differ. http://www.rcdb.com/installationdetail1975.htm

The orignial design first appeared in a Six Flags park and RNRC is a clone of that coaster and isnt orignal in the least

Again, no its not. RNRC made its debut in July of 1999, Superman: The Ride at Six Flags Holland made its debut on April of 2000.

and have many improvements that you will not find at any Six Flags park.

Like?

its track layout again is unique and can be found nowhere else in the world!!

Give B&M time, soon you will see an exact clone of this at another park minus the launch. Could B&M become any more predictable though?

if you are talking about Superman Ride of Steel type coaster which is found at several Six Flags parks(by the way a truely great ride that would be a major inprovement over any coaster on disney property) it is built by Intamin and not Vekoma

I believe that you are confusing yourself. Superman: The Ride that appears in 3 Six Flags parks here in the states are indeed manufactured by Intamin. But the Superman coaster in question is Superman: The Ride from Six Flags Holland, constructed by Vekoma. Here let me help you: Superman: The Ride

which is regarded as a producer of rough riding coasters and not looked upon highly at all unless you enjoy head rattling coasters!!!

Or on the flip side of the coaster enthusiast coin, some regard B&M coasters as "forceless" hunk of metal.

As for Calif Screamin it is sad that a company would build a supposedly old area of the park based on a yesteryear era and then is too cheap to build a wooden coaster but instead builds a steel coaster to look like a wooden coaster.

The original intent was never to build a wooden coaster, Imagineering wanted to be able to have things like the launch and the loop, the tight helixes, but give it that "Boardwalk" feel. So the look of the coaster being made to appear as a wooden coaster is part of the themeing.

 

[pheneix]

>>>I beg to differ.<<<

Ughh... It's Intamin, trust me...

>>>Like?<<<

Let's see, the wheel alloys that are changed depending on how loud (The Hulk) or quiet (Dueling Dragons) Universal wants their coastet to be, the weighing system on Dueling Dragons that allows the ride to sync up the lifts to provide an optimum dueling experience, the DRAMATICALLY higher maintenance that these coasters recieve over their Six Flags counterparts, the much higher ride capacity that the coasters operate on, etc.

>>>Or on the flip side of the coaster enthusiast coin, some regard B&M coasters as "forceless" hunk of metal.<<<

I think the vast numbers of people that pass out on The Hulk would disagree with that.

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by pheneix
Ughh... It's Intamin, trust me...

Could you point me in the direction of your source? Speaking of Intamin, they have only built one coaster on Disney soil, California Screamin', which by my account has had quite a few problems with its launch mechanism. Plus Disney has a history with both Vekoma and Arrow.

Let's see, the wheel alloys that are changed

All B&M coasters feature this.

the DRAMATICALLY higher maintenance that these coasters recieve over their Six Flags counterparts

Maintenance has nothing to do with improvements, now if you said due to improvements less maintanence was required then you would have made a statement.

the much higher ride capacity that the coasters operate on, etc.

Higher ride capacity has nothing to do with "improvement" that Universal helped develop. It is simply figuring out the best way to allow the max number of cars to operate through a series of block brakes and loading times. At last check, the Hulk only had two sets of block brakes and no trim brakes, I've seen coasters that have up two at least 3 to 4 sets of block brakes and added trim brakes thus allowing them to increase load times.

I think the vast numbers of people that pass out on The Hulk would disagree with that.

Vast numbers? Come on now... you don't even believe that do you? If the G forces were so high that people were passing out left and right then the ride would be put on a hiatus. Also, I've failed to see, hear, or read any stories about "vast" numbers of people passing out. So if you could direct me towards one, that would be great.

 

[pheneix]

>>>All B&M coasters feature this.<<<

No, they don't. All other coasters have the same standard B&M "ROAR." Hulk was jacked up considerably, while DD was toned down to keep the noise from intruding into the Lost Continent.

>>>Maintenance has nothing to do with improvements<<<

I'll put it this way, I at least feel SAFE on a Universal coaster. That's definitely an improvement!

>>>Higher ride capacity has nothing to do with "improvement" that Universal helped develop.<<<

Yeah, but they do at least STAFF their rides better than any Sux Flags park I have ever been to.

>>>Vast numbers? Come on now... you don't even believe that do you?<<<

I have seen five people black out on the ride with my own eyes (including my own father). After several conversations with crew members there, I found out this is a pretty common event (over the years potentially HUNDREDS of people have seen stars on this ride). Most people (as is the case with my father) usually come to before they return to the station.

>>>If the G forces were so high that people were passing out left and right then the ride would be put on a hiatus.<<<

Not really. A lot of people have a very, very low tolerance to G-forces (kind of like motion sickness in a way). If a ride is still operating within safe parameters, no one is going to take any action about it. Goliath at Magic Mountain is a chronic black-out machine, and it still operates regularly.

BTW, Mission Space is probably going to have this effect on people. It should be interesting to watch, as it may be the most physically intense ride ever unleashed on this industry.

>>>I've failed to see, hear, or read any stories about "vast" numbers of people passing out.<<<

You're probably not going to see that many stories about the physical abuse that Disney employees recieve from guests on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by pheneix
I have seen five people black out on the ride with my own eyes (including my own father). After several conversations with crew members there, I found out this is a pretty common event (over the years potentially HUNDREDS of people have seen stars on this ride). Most people (as is the case with my father) usually come to before they return to the station.

Seeing stars and passing out imho are two different things. Now had you said "seeing stars" or whatever I would have been more apt to believe you in the first place, as I had this same thing happen on my first ride on Dr. Doom.


BTW, I'm still waiting on that information about Intamin..... I'm hoping to be able to eat my own words as I prefer an Intamin coaster to a Vekoma one any day.

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by pheneix
You're probably not going to see that many stories about the physical abuse that Disney employees recieve from guests on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Just because you have seen five and crew members at the Hulk "claim" this happens all the time, doesn't mean it is a "vast" amount.

 

[Bob O]

So where exactly is their a clone of Hulk minus the launch at any other theme park in the world!!! As far B & M being predictable, the only thing that is predictable is the smooth/great ride they offer without the head banging that is standard on vekoma coasters!!! And the coaster enthusaists who perfer steel coasters (alot perfer wooden coasters more)very few that i have met in person at coaster events or on line refer to B & M coasters as junk while it is known thru-out the industry that vekoma is known for rough riding/head banging coasters and why frew of their creations are highly rated on any polls of coasters!!
And if disney had no intent to build a wooden coaster at DCA they shouldnt have put it (Calif Screamin) in a part of the park that would harken to the old glory days of Amusement parks where they all had wooden coasters. If disney wanted that part of the park to be truely authentic they should have lloked to Knotts and built a great wooden coaster like Ghostrider rather than a coaster like the one they built that has a weaker launch than RNRC and one weak loop and over the shoulder restraints that arent needed and remove any air time the ride could offer.

 

[YoHo]

In a fit of Irony, those over the shoulder restraints came loose when my wife and a friend of ours rode it last month. Snapped back in right away, but still. A scary thing I don't care how tame it is.

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Bob O
So where exactly is their a clone of Hulk minus the launch at any other theme park in the world!!!

Never said that there was a clone.

As far B & M being predictable, the only thing that is predictable is the smooth/great ride they offer

That and the predictable layout, every sit-down coaster will offer a loop, interlocking corckscrews, cobral roll,..... yada yada yada....

By the way... did my clarification of the Superman coasters help?

And the coaster enthusaists who perfer steel coasters (alot perfer wooden coasters more)very few that i have met in person at coaster events or on line refer to B & M coasters as junk while it is known thru-out the industry that vekoma is known for rough riding/head banging coasters

And in the same respect, I have met many that prefer Vekoma over B&M, but that really isn't the point at hand.

Getting back on track. Universal may have all of the "wow" coasters now, but after many years maintenance time and costs go up. In my humble opinion, Disney still has Universal beat, look at timeless classics like the Haunted Mansion or Pirates of the Carribean. The animatronics in Pirates and the special effects in the Mansion still amaze and amuse me more the anything that Universal has to offer. How long have those rides been around?

Buzz is cheap looking, I'll give anyone that. But MIB? Six Flags are developing the same caliber of attraction in conjunction with the Sally Corp.

Twister? Wow... a tornado... but after two or three viewing the thrill wears off, but at PotC and HM, I still find little details that I've missed before.

I could continue... but I don't have the energy and I'm hungry....

 

[Bob O]

Yesthe clarification regarding the Superman ride helped, of course it would be easier if Six Flags didnt feel the need to call so many of their coasters by batman or superman. As for layouts of coasters, while their are only a finite amout of coaster elements to have what counts is the spacing/timing of these elements to produce a great ride with great air time/g forces etc and the smoothness of the ride and this is where IMHO vekoma suffers and while few of their coasters are rated highly in any coaster polls.
And yes disney does have it's classic rides that cant be beat, the thing is they are resting on their laurels and arent creating new ones to add to the old ones.They are more content to give us of the shelf rides and not to create new experiences.
As for Six flags they or disney have nothing at all that competes with Men in Black in regards to a interactive ride where you shoot at targets, are shot at and also shoot at other riders on the same ride. Six flags rides are even worse than Buzz which has nothing that is interactive.
As for over the shoulder restraints alot of parks have removed them from their coasters and it would be nice to see disney remove them from RNRC and Calif Screamin which would improve both rides alot IMHO.

 

[OnWithTheShow]

B+M coasters vary their loudness level according to the parks wishes, in addition to different wheel plastics they also fill the hollow parts of the track with sand. Hulk is actually considerably quieter than most un-muted B+M coasters.

BobO which coasters besides the Premier launched coasters have removed OTS restraints for lap bars. If these are the only ones they are far from standard lap bars.

Rock n Roller Coaster opened a full year before Superman and how many WDW visitors will ever go to Six Flags Holland. I enjoy RNRC as a attraction, it is not the best coaster in the world but a top notch attraction non the less. RNRC also has one of the highest hourly capacities of any coaster.

I prefer Dueling Dragons and Hulk to RNRC but all three are in my top 5 coasters. (I have ridden most)

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Bob O
And yes disney does have it's classic rides that cant be beat, the thing is they are resting on their laurels and arent creating new ones to add to the old ones.

Can anyone honestly name a Universal attraction that in 20 or 30 years people will say, I need to ride "insert attraction name here" because it is such a great classic ride! None that I can think of.

They are more content to give us of the shelf rides and not to create new experiences.

Besides the unberable "Dumbo" clones, RnRC (which OnWithTheShow pointed out is the only coaster like it on US soil) and Primeval Whirl, Universal has there fair share of off the shelf rides as well. IOA is filled with quite a few. Dr. Doom, the Flying Unicorn, Bilge Rat Barges, Storm Force, One Fish/Two Fish, Caro-suess-el..... etc....

As for Six flags they or disney have nothing at all that competes with Men in Black in regards to a interactive ride where you shoot at targets

I think you should do a search for Six Flags Holland's new interactive dark ride, "The Curse of Tutmankenh" I believe it is called. Still in the construction stage, but it looks very elaborate and detailed with themeing.

resting on their laurels and arent creating new ones to add to the old ones

Mission: SPACE, Expedition Everest?

 

[Bob O]

Mission space isnt open so the quality of the ride is in doubt until we have actual reports from people who have ridden it. We allheard how great TT was supposed to be and it didnt live up to all the hype so time will tell if mission space is the great attractionwe all hope that it is. As for everst, lets wait and see till the ride is actually built and running till one sings its praises.
And again hard to compare a ride that is actual up and running for years MIB, to a ride that isnt even finished yet and one is only going on pictures and rumors.
As for Universal classics, only time will tell but i think Spiderman will be a classic as will both Hulk and DD.
Onwiththeshow-Their have been several ridesthat have removed the godawful/painful over the shoulder restraint, Flight of fear at paramounts parks and several rides with a joker theme at Six Flags park. Also Son of Beast was built without a over the shoulder restaint and it has a inversion. Hopefully this will become a model for other coasters to enjoy the ride.

 

[EUROPA]

Many people consider Kong a classic attraction that was produced by Universal. Evident by the thousands of people that showed to take one last ride before it was closed.

 

[Planogirl]

A few people I spoke with referred to Jaws as a classic. Now this one will need updating but only time will tell if it will be a classic of course. I agree that Spiderman is bound to become a classic mainly due to the popularity of the character.