Debt Dumpers - 2015

[crazycatstacy]

Today is my daughter's 20th birthday. Our tradition has always been to eat out on birthdays. We had budgeted a set amount and ended up only spending half of it! Yippee!!

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

I am struggling.

I restarted my 401k contributions, I stopped them last year when I knew I would be moving and needed the extra cash. I told myself it was for one year only and no matter what I'd restart them at the end of July. Well that time has come and gone and I restarted them and I just can't believe the difference in pay. I mean I calculated everything out but oh man it still hurts.

I have to do school shopping but will be having a talk with DS about the budget. Mainly the food budget. I can afford his needed supplies and will purchase those tomorrow so I can take advantage of our tax free weekend, our tax is 8% where I live so it is a bit of savings. Most everything he needs is on sale at Target and I'll use my red card to get 5% off in addition to that. We went through his clothes and he has outgrown a bunch but still has enough. He needs new socks and new running shoes for cross country. I have to charge these. It kills me. I've been doing so good and now because I just had to think about my future I need to add a small amount to my debt. I am hoping that if DS and I meal plan and cook more at home (he will definitely be helping!) and do our best to not eat out I can pay that charge off next month. The problem is it's my busy season at work and sometimes I'm working 60 hours a week and it's just easier to hit the drive-thru. I am really going to try to not do this. Maybe on Fridays when I'm exhausted or the Saturdays I have to work. If I can limit it during the week I think we can stay in budget.

I'm excited DS is trying something new (cross country for his school) but I am just exasperated at how much this stuff costs. He also needs to eat better so hopefully we can both eat better and save some money in the process. I wouldn't mind losing some weight either!

I need a Disney trip.

 

[dayvewc]

Good news, bad news, repeat a couple of times.

I got a letter from my mortgage company, and the extra money I had been paying to my escrow account because it did not have enough to cover the insurance year before last has all been paid.

The same letter also said that the current projected escrow balance would be insufficient for the upcoming payment. So, I will again be having to pay an extra amount to my escrow account for another year to make up the estimated difference.

But, the estimated monthly difference this time is less than what it was last time.

Except that due to the increase in insurance premium, the actual amount of my monthly payment still went up (but only by $25).

In the two years (26 months) I've been paying on my 30 year mortgage, I have always tried to pay something extra each month towards the principle. Even if it is only $20. So even though it isn't much per payment, it has still reduced the payoff date by 18 months. That means that my 26 months of payments are equivalent to 44 months. (or that's the way I think of it).

But, I still have 316 more months to go (right now).

Swimming, swimming, swimming.

 

[bcwife76]

It's amazing to see how much a difference even small 'extra' payments make to your mortgage! We've changed our payment (upped it by $50 twice a month) and our interest rate has dropped twice in the past year. So Dayvewc, your post inspired me to look go online to see how much we have left on our mortgage and I was pleasantly surprised!! I mean, I knew the $ amount remaining but I didn't know the years/months. We bought our current house 3.5 years ago so if we had just paid the same amount each time and nothing else had happened, we'd still have 26.5 years left in our amortization. instead we have 23 years & 3 months! Woohoo! I'm hoping that by the time our term is up and we renew/refinance (Feb 2017) it will be down to 20 years.

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

It's amazing to see how much a difference even small 'extra' payments make to your mortgage! We've changed our payment (upped it by $50 twice a month) and our interest rate has dropped twice in the past year. So Dayvewc, your post inspired me to look go online to see how much we have left on our mortgage and I was pleasantly surprised!! I mean, I knew the $ amount remaining but I didn't know the years/months. We bought our current house 3.5 years ago so if we had just paid the same amount each time and nothing else had happened, we'd still have 26.5 years left in our amortization. instead we have 23 years & 3 months! Woohoo! I'm hoping that by the time our term is up and we renew/refinance (Feb 2017) it will be down to 20 years.

Where does one look to see this info? I don't pay $50 extra but I do pay it 7-10 days early and round it up to nearest $10 So instead of it being say $2084.33, I'd round to $2090.

I do recall back in the days of dh's former truck payments (3 trucks ago, lol) when they'd give you a booklet of paper coupons to mail in with your check, the last coupon would say, "Don't mail this coupon. We'll bill you for the final payment." I figured then it was in case people had any late fees, etc.
The way our paychecks schedules worked out, I'd always pay it at least a week early so when it came to that last payment, it was $50 less than the others. I was told it was from all the interest saved by paying early. (Not even paying anything extra.) So just think, if that was only a truck for 4 years, imagine how much saved for a mortgage.
I'd love to know how to look that up. I'd think it's very motivating.

 

[dayvewc]

Where does one look to see this info? I don't pay $50 extra but I do pay it 7-10 days early and round it up to nearest $10 So instead of it being say $2084.33, I'd round to $2090.

I do recall back in the days of dh's former truck payments (3 trucks ago, lol) when they'd give you a booklet of paper coupons to mail in with your check, the last coupon would say, "Don't mail this coupon. We'll bill you for the final payment." I figured then it was in case people had any late fees, etc.
The way our paychecks schedules worked out, I'd always pay it at least a week early so when it came to that last payment, it was $50 less than the others. I was told it was from all the interest saved by paying early. (Not even paying anything extra.) So just think, if that was only a truck for 4 years, imagine how much saved for a mortgage.
I'd love to know how to look that up. I'd think it's very motivating.

I actually got my figure by calling and asking the mortgage company. For the official figure. I had called to ask a couple of questions concerning how the escrow adjustments were made; the letter I had received earlier this summer was a little unclear about the changes they were going to implement. While I had them on the phone, I asked about it since what the payoff date showing on line was just what the original contract had listed.

However, I also track all my bills and expenses in Quicken, and it was showing an estimated payoff after 17 years (it tracks how much extra I pay each month towards the principle), so I knew that it would be earlier than the contract date, but not where it stood currently. I also have an excel file that I update periodically with all the payments, and then use to look and see how changes now will effect the final payoff date. I find it much easier to manipulate the numbers in Excel than to use Quicken's "What If" option. I promise, I don't have multiple methods to check things like that because of OCD or anything.

And if you used actual numbers, can I just say "WOW" on your mortgage payment in general? That payment is as much as my monthly net pay from my primary job.

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

Well, it's close. It does include our crazy high property taxes, almost $9k/year, homeowner's ins. of $900, and waaay too much equity we took our with a refi years ago to pay off cc debt the "easy" way. Still it didn't teach me how to budget which is why I'm so adverse to consolidators, and things like that. JMHO, but anything that makes cc bill paying so easy that I don't really have to pay attention to it, will allow me to stop spending time reading the statement, etc. and that's how it starts creeping up.

They are just numbers. Taxes & salaries are all relative to where you live. This is why NYC teachers earn over $100k. Their cost of living can't be compared to let's say folks living in SC. We are not wealthy. I'm an xray tech & dh is a welder. Our house is simple 3BR/2BA. No basement. Still it would be paid off by now if I didn't let our cc's get out of control.

We did splurge a tiny bit and booked a 4 nt trip to Universal in Sept when I got a 40% off coupon and we could fly free one way. Sept is just about the cheapest time to travel and ds15 has a 4 day weekend off school. I was bad and took a 0% x 12 months offer from our Disney visa to cover the hotel, tickets & one way flight. I will have it paid off before Christmas and I'm not booking any more trips or charging more stuff til this is paid off. I even resisted earlier this week when I saw $29 flights to MCO over my long weekend off in early Dec.!!! I'd love to go while all the decorations are up but it won't be this year. There were no great deals for Disney hotels and it would still add up to a few thousand with tickets & meals. We have our cruise in March and 2 nts pre cruise at BWV to look forward to so I will have to be content with that. Besides, too much WDW gets dh "Disney'd out" (in dh's words) and then he'll be bored with it in March.

So my "no cc debt" status lasted less than 1 month.

 

[dayvewc]

Well, it's close. It does include our crazy high property taxes, almost $9k/year, homeowner's ins. of $900, and waaay too much equity we took our with a refi years ago to pay off cc debt the "easy" way. Still it didn't teach me how to budget which is why I'm so adverse to consolidators, and things like that. JMHO, but anything that makes cc bill paying so easy that I don't really have to pay attention to it, will allow me to stop spending time reading the statement, etc. and that's how it starts creeping up.

That still just seems unreal to me. My total payment is $414 and some change, and includes the payment to the escrow account for taxes, insurance, and the "make up the deficient" payments. The total taxes are about $537 a year, but with the $350 homesteader state credit, they only pay $187 a year. My insurance is the part that seems out of proportion, it is a bit over $2000 a year. When I got the letter, I had been paying $410 a month ($390 and change plus my extra principle payment). I upped it to $450 a month beginning September 1. Luckily (?), this is just the actual amount on my original loan - no equity loans or anything else.

They are just numbers. Taxes & salaries are all relative to where you live. This is why NYC teachers earn over $100k. Their cost of living can't be compared to let's say folks living in SC. We are not wealthy. I'm an xray tech & dh is a welder. Our house is simple 3BR/2BA. No basement. Still it would be paid off by now if I didn't let our cc's get out of control.

Yeah, I know it is all relative. I just grew up here, and seeing a house payment like that is just "wow" to me. But when I've looked at other places to maybe move to and live and work, it has never seemed worth it because of the different cost of living. My $$$'s are worth a lot more here than just about anywhere else. Even in the states and localities I looked at that paid teachers double or more what I make, after adjustments for taxes, gas, grocery costs, etc., on paper it always looked like I would have less money in my pocket if I moved. (Where I looked at the hardest when I was considering it a couple of years ago was Houston, TX. Teacher salary for my experience and level was in the mid-to-high $50k's, or about a 50% raise from $39k to $57k. But based on the cost-of-living website I was looking at, to maintain my current standard of living, I would have to make at least $65k a year.)

I do have to say, that since this is a cheap area of the country to live in, I have a good deal on my house. It's a 4BR/2BA on a lot and a half, with a detached garage/storage shed (probably a 2-car garage if you were careful driving in ), and fenced back yard for my friendly, furry, fuzzy, four-legged children to play in.

We did splurge a tiny bit and booked a 4 nt trip to Universal in Sept when I got a 40% off coupon and we could fly free one way. Sept is just about the cheapest time to travel and ds15 has a 4 day weekend off school. I was bad and took a 0% x 12 months offer from our Disney visa to cover the hotel, tickets & one way flight. I will have it paid off before Christmas and I'm not booking any more trips or charging more stuff til this is paid off. I even resisted earliest this week when I saw $29 flights to MCO over my long weekend off in early Dec.!!! I'd love to go while all the decorations are up but it won't be this year. There were no great deals for Disney hotels and it would still add up to a few thousand with tickets & meals. We have our cruise in March and 2 nts pre cruise at BWV to look forward to so I will have to be content with that. Besides, too much WDW gets dh "Disney'd out" (in dh's words) and then he'll be bored with it in March.

So my "no cc debt" status lasted less than 1 month.

That sounds like a nice trip. And sometimes, when those "to-good-to-pass-up" options come by, you really just have to take them and go with it. As long as you get it paid off in the 0% interest time frame, I personally wouldn't count it as "more debt". Just a different way to save for your vacation. Instead of putting the money aside and paying cash, you paid it up-front and are paying it off at cost - no interest. (Though, I guess technically you are losing the interest the funds would have earned, but since there would not be a guarantee of a similar discount when you had it saved, the savings would probably be more than the lost interest. Net gain in my book.)

Just keep on swimming. I'm right there with you. I was CC free (except for the 20 month 0% interest I had moved everything to) until I got injured - almost 6 weeks. Then I had to pay all those bills on the CC I had just paid off, and I wound up charging about $4k. I'm hopeful I'll have them all paid off by Jan, just having to wait and see what the final bills from some of the doctors and therapy wind up being.

 

[bcwife76]

Where does one look to see this info? I don't pay $50 extra but I do pay it 7-10 days early and round it up to nearest $10 So instead of it being say $2084.33, I'd round to $2090.

I do recall back in the days of dh's former truck payments (3 trucks ago, lol) when they'd give you a booklet of paper coupons to mail in with your check, the last coupon would say, "Don't mail this coupon. We'll bill you for the final payment." I figured then it was in case people had any late fees, etc.
The way our paychecks schedules worked out, I'd always pay it at least a week early so when it came to that last payment, it was $50 less than the others. I was told it was from all the interest saved by paying early. (Not even paying anything extra.) So just think, if that was only a truck for 4 years, imagine how much saved for a mortgage.
I'd love to know how to look that up. I'd think it's very motivating.

Just get it from my online banking site (I bank with TD). All our accounts are listed and I just click on my mortgage and it tells me all this info

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

That still just seems unreal to me. My total payment is $414 and some change, and includes the payment to the escrow account for taxes, insurance, and the "make up the deficient" payments. The total taxes are about $537 a year, but with the $350 homesteader state credit, they only pay $187 a year. My insurance is the part that seems out of proportion, it is a bit over $2000 a year. When I got the letter, I had been paying $410 a month ($390 and change plus my extra principle payment). I upped it to $450 a month beginning September 1. Luckily (?), this is just the actual amount on my original loan - no equity loans or anything else.

Wow!! Even our little 1BR condo that we bought back in the early 90's for $60k was still $600/month. And we thought that was cheap living! Our property tax bill covers the township/local taxes, incl trash & recycling curbside, schools (which I have to say are excellent) and fire dept. Water and sewer are a separate bill but the only other thing we have to pay to the govt. is our annual car registration renewal which is around $60-80/yr. depending on vehicle weight, and includes inspection at a state inspection center.
Well, and of course sales tax & income tax. I guess they are always reaching into our pockets.


Yeah, I know it is all relative. I just grew up here, and seeing a house payment like that is just "wow" to me. But when I've looked at other places to maybe move to and live and work, it has never seemed worth it because of the different cost of living. My $$$'s are worth a lot more here than just about anywhere else. Even in the states and localities I looked at that paid teachers double or more what I make, after adjustments for taxes, gas, grocery costs, etc., on paper it always looked like I would have less money in my pocket if I moved. (Where I looked at the hardest when I was considering it a couple of years ago was Houston, TX. Teacher salary for my experience and level was in the mid-to-high $50k's, or about a 50% raise from $39k to $57k. But based on the cost-of-living website I was looking at, to maintain my current standard of living, I would have to make at least $65k a year.)

I do have to say, that since this is a cheap area of the country to live in, I have a good deal on my house. It's a 4BR/2BA on a lot and a half, with a detached garage/storage shed (probably a 2-car garage if you were careful driving in ), and fenced back yard for my friendly, furry, fuzzy, four-legged children to play in.

This is like when we looked into moving to FL before we had kids. Their salaries were half of ours up here and even though housing was also much cheaper, I couldn't help but think how cars, food, clothing, etc is all about the same. I couldn't see past that tiny paycheck and wondering how they all get by. It's scary to move in either direction. You just don't know for sure how it's going to work out.


That sounds like a nice trip. And sometimes, when those "to-good-to-pass-up" options come by, you really just have to take them and go with it. As long as you get it paid off in the 0% interest time frame, I personally wouldn't count it as "more debt". Just a different way to save for your vacation. Instead of putting the money aside and paying cash, you paid it up-front and are paying it off at cost - no interest. (Though, I guess technically you are losing the interest the funds would have earned, but since there would not be a guarantee of a similar discount when you had it saved, the savings would probably be more than the lost interest. Net gain in my book.)

Wow, that's such a kind way to describe charging a trip to my cc.
Well, it did cost me a $46 fee to get the 0% but for sure I'll pay it off way early.

Just keep on swimming. I'm right there with you. I was CC free (except for the 20 month 0% interest I had moved everything to) until I got injured - almost 6 weeks. Then I had to pay all those bills on the CC I had just paid off, and I wound up charging about $4k. I'm hopeful I'll have them all paid off by Jan, just having to wait and see what the final bills from some of the doctors and therapy wind up being.

oops. Expand your quote above.
Yes, we'll all keep swimming. Pretty soon I'll be growing gills.

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

Just get it from my online banking site (I bank with TD). All our accounts are listed and I just click on my mortgage and it tells me all this info

Thanks. We have Chase and I'm not sure it lists that. I'll have to check.

 

[dayvewc]

Quoted from ruadisneyfan2 "Wow!! Even our little 1BR condo that we bought back in the early 90's for $60k was still $600/month. And we thought that was cheap living! Our property tax bill covers the township/local taxes, incl trash & recycling curbside, schools (which I have to say are excellent) and fire dept. Water and sewer are a separate bill but the only other thing we have to pay to the govt. is our annual car registration renewal which is around $60-80/yr. depending on vehicle weight, and includes inspection at a state inspection center.
Well, and of course sales tax & income tax. I guess they are always reaching into our pockets."

My property tax covers the school, police, fire, and city/county offices (along with the local sales tax). Trash is included on the monthly water bill. Car registration is state, and my veteran tags only run me $3.75 a year, and there is no longer an inspection.

And yeah, sales tax and income tax are always a bummer. They keep trying, but I don't have deep enough pockets for them to reach into!!

Quoted from ruadisneyfan2 "This is like when we looked into moving to FL before we had kids. Their salaries were half of ours up here and even though housing was also much cheaper, I couldn't help but think how cars, food, clothing, etc is all about the same. I couldn't see past that tiny paycheck and wondering how they all get by. It's scary to move in either direction. You just don't know for sure how it's going to work out."

Yeah, I understand. 20 years ago, I moved to Minnesota for a year, transferred my job with a major retail company. The district I moved to had a much higher minimum wage, and so I got an automatic raise for moving there. Wouldn't have been able to live on my own, good thing I moved in with family. When I moved back to finish college, I lucked out and they didn't lower my pay rate. :-D That next couple of years before I left, I was really making bank for this area!!
Quoted from ruadisneyfan2 "Wow, that's such a kind way to describe charging a trip to my cc.
Well, it did cost me a $46 fee to get the 0% but for sure I'll pay it off way early."

Well, I can rationalize just about anything given enough need.

But seriously, if you already know you are planning on saving money for the trip, then you have/had two options. Save the funds until you could pay cash, or charge it if you went earlier and use the funds that would have gone to savings to pay off the CC. Just looking at some numbers (and I have NO idea what it actually costs) with free one-way tickets and 40% off rooms, then by taking this trip, you "saved" almost half the cost of a similar trip later down the road. (Lets say your hotel costs $300/night normally, times 4 nights = $1200, discounted 40% = $720. Then airfare at half-price would have cost me $125 round trip for one person instead of $250. If its just you, DH, and DS, then air cost you $375 instead of $750. That means that you saved $480 on hotel and $375 on air, or a total of $855. So on a CC charging interest at 15%, paying a minimum 2% or $20 payment, you would still pay it off in 97 months but only pay $814.11 in interest. Still a better deal. But since you got it 0% interest, you have 12 months to pay $1141 ($720 + $375 + $46) or about $95/month, instead of needing to save $1950 ($1200 + $750) or about $162.50/month over the same approximate time frame. Getting a deal that cost you bit less than 60% of full price seems well worth it to me. )

Believe me, I am all about the saving up and dumping debt, but sometimes it's just worth it.

Mostly what I am discovering with my debt dumping is that it takes 2 very, very, VERY (did I mention it is V.E.R.Y.) important pieces.
A plan, and the discipline to follow the plan.

For me, most of the time the plan is a good thing, and even though I don't like following the plan, I do and good things happen faster. But my plan is not set in stone, cast in bronze, or formed in concrete. I can alter my plan, especially if by doing so I can do something I really want to do (all my needs are already in the plan, any alterations are strictly for wants) and not substantially change the outcome. I already save $150 a month for vacations (I deem getting away and having fun a necessity), so running your numbers, I could still do that. Just for the next year, I'd be putting $95/month towards paying off the CC, and the other $55 toward my next trip. It wouldn't substantially alter what I'm already doing, but it would affect the distance, type, and duration of any vacation I took next year.

Where my plan has failed, or failed me, is where the unexpected happens. My plan is focused on paying things off as quickly as possible, and only setting aside a minimum for emergencies. Lately, I've had more and more expensive emergencies than I had originally anticipated, sucking out all my emergency funds already put aside and demanding more. It has put a crimp in the plan, but the plan is still working.

 

[DisneyMandC]

Somehow I completely missed this earlier! This will be my ds18 soon. He isn't going to law school but the school he chose is crazy expensive. We did save some over the years but of course not nearly enough, more like 1 semester. Even with a decent merit scholarship he'll have a small mortgage when he graduates.
I feel bad for him and plan to help him out as much as possible by paying them down some while he's still in school. The only reason I even followed along with his plans is that it's one of a very few schools that offer software engineering with an optional 5th year master's degree. Right now there just aren't enough SEs in the world so there are plenty of jobs. When we toured we met one of the SE professors and she said in that particular major, NONE of their graduates can't find a job in their field. So at least that's a relief. I so wish he could get a job with loan forgiveness.

It's definitely not fun, I can tell you that. But kudos to your on picking a major that has a promising career field! Despite the loans, I'm so thankful I got into law school, because what the hell was I going to do with a history/poli sci double major? Oh well, one day they'll be paid off!

We did have some success this week: DH paid off $1400 towards his education! His previous job had paid towards his education, but if you left within a certain amount of time, you have to pay it back. It was a government contractor position, and when sequestration happened, he had to get out before his hours got cut to part time. We were very fortunate that he was able to find another job that started the day his hours would have gone down to part time! However, he had to pay back the education payments his work had paid. It was down to $1400, and since we're in the process of applying for a mortgage, DH went ahead and just paid it off this week. So that's one less debt that will appear for us!

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

It's definitely not fun, I can tell you that. But kudos to your on picking a major that has a promising career field! Despite the loans, I'm so thankful I got into law school, because what the hell was I going to do with a history/poli sci double major? Oh well, one day they'll be paid off!

We did have some success this week: DH paid off $1400 towards his education! His previous job had paid towards his education, but if you left within a certain amount of time, you have to pay it back. It was a government contractor position, and when sequestration happened, he had to get out before his hours got cut to part time. We were very fortunate that he was able to find another job that started the day his hours would have gone down to part time! However, he had to pay back the education payments his work had paid. It was down to $1400, and since we're in the process of applying for a mortgage, DH went ahead and just paid it off this week. So that's one less debt that will appear for us!

That's an awesome pay down!
Funny that you mention a history major. This is truly his passion but he feel that jobs would be extremely limited after graduation. He could talk about history all day. Even during dinner he starts on and on and on about the Ottoman Empire and all I can think is maybe I should seek a maternity test. lol All kidding aside, he's unique and content to be. I encourage that but ds15 is still a total follower! ugh!

 

[BernardandMissBianca]

As of today my car is officially mine!!! WOOT WOOT!!!
Is it lame that I took a picture of the zero balance? LOL

And my oil company "found" money! Apparently many moons ago I gave them a $100 security deposit and she applied it to my balance, yay me! So I paid that balance off too.

And I paid off a few little hospital bills here and there. Love when DH gets a bonus check, I can catch up a little.

Now to tackle car taxes and tuition. ERGH, I'll have to make payments but it shouldn't take long.

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

Yay! That is awesome!
I always take a picture of the $0 balance and text it to dh. Lol.
Usually I keep logging in for a few days after just to see it again.

 

[BernardandMissBianca]

UGH called the insurance company again. How do people afford car insurance when they have boys??? $1797 more dollars a year!! And I get a whopping $250 credit if he maintains a 3.0 gpa. Then she's all like well because he has his license we have to add him because he could just take my car and get into a wreck. UM, if he just takes my car I'll kill him myself! Not that he would take my car, he's is a serious toe the line kinda kid.
So now they are sending me an exclusion form for us the sign.

And then to top that off I have 2 more boys right behind him who will get their licenses at the same time. I guess I'll just lose my house to pay car insurance.

Rant of the day!

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

Time to call around for prices. It really does vary a lot. We switched from AAA to Geico once ds18 got his license to save $1000.

 

[BernardandMissBianca]

DH has been calling all morning and it looks like AAA is still cheaper than other places. I need to call my insurance agency company again.

Geico is a no go for us. They were absolutely horrible to us when their client hit us. It took us 7 years to settle that claim.

 

[OhMari]

UGH called the insurance company again. How do people afford car insurance when they have boys??? $1797 more dollars a year!! And I get a whopping $250 credit if he maintains a 3.0 gpa. Then she's all like well because he has his license we have to add him because he could just take my car and get into a wreck. UM, if he just takes my car I'll kill him myself! Not that he would take my car, he's is a serious toe the line kinda kid.
So now they are sending me an exclusion form for us the sign.

And then to top that off I have 2 more boys right behind him who will get their licenses at the same time. I guess I'll just lose my house to pay car insurance.

Rant of the day!

It is a scam, we would put the boys on my husbands 1970 Chevelle's, because they had to have a vehicle associated with them. I remeber crying 15 years ago when our insurance went up 100 a month more per kid. Our last child, we never called till she got her own car. All our vehicles were insured and she very rarely drove. We also carried a 1 million dollar umbrella coverage-$425 a year.