Cecil the Lion

[Hrhpd]

Correct. African lions are not an endangered species. U.S. Fish & Wildlife discussed adding them to the Threatened list a year or so ago, but ultimately declined.

Yes, my mistake. A few of the articles I read stressed that Cecil was endangered which made it doubly wrong. I am a fan of google and usually verify things before posting, but this time I did not. Lesson learned.

 

[GaryDis]

FWIW, this article is a bit unclear as to the structure of Cecil's pride. It said he teamed up with a lion named Jericho to establish a new pride, but then describes them as having separate prides. If they're somehow cooperative (one large pride that just hangs out as two separate groups, which happens with very large prides), there might be a slim chance that Jericho will consider the kittens his own, and adopt them. But that's just hopeful speculation on my part.

Male lions usually don't keep their prides for more than a few years, less if they're the only one, more if they're a coalition of two or three males. It's a sad fact of lions in nature that most males are going to lose at least one litter of kittens to a successor. I don't mean this to distract from the tragedy of Cecil's death, but infanticide among lions is the rule, not the exception.

Lion's, BTW, are considered vulnerable, which is just one step above endangered, and still deserving of strong protection.

EDIT: typo, "two or three years" -> "two or three males".

 

[Vaughn4380]

Well, yes, but I am seeing more anger over the lion. You can be upset about both, of course. But, at least in the media, there's more of a bruhaha about the lion.

Is it the fact he was a lion that people are upset, or the fact the lion was illegally shot? I mean, are we hating on the act of legal hunting? Or the act of breaking the laws? This thread has some extreme viewpoints and is actually hard to follow.

I will go on record and say I hate illegal hunting and poachers. These countries have game wardens with managment plans to ensure the species survives for future generations. Poaching reduces the chance my kid will see a [insert any animal you want here] in the wild. But the act of legal hunting is not the issue here.

 

[Vaughn4380]

Hunting gives these animals value. To a poor villager, a lion can represent a threat to their children and their livestock, or it can represent an opportunity to work a paying position for a safari firm. If the former, there's no incentive for the villagers not to kill the lions (ALL of them) themselves.

Well said.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Truth is: we don't yet know the facts in this case. If he was duped by two crooked local guides, then he might not have fault/guilt in this situation, although others have said Zimbabwe law still holds him somewhate responsible. If he knew everything upfront and went ahead with an illegal hunt, he needs to be punished harder. We need to hear the facts before either side rushes to judgement.

Even if his claim to being duped is true, and his past record gives me pause to believe it is, He is responsible for every shot he takes.

 

[dinolounger]

this is very head-patty and finger-waggy.

I can see it being perceived that way, when some get so agitated in the venting echo chamber that they lose track of the fact nothing they say hasn't already been stated several thousand times. Or put more bluntly, the supposed "thunder" in just about every "he's scum" message being posted here had been stolen long, long before the fingers of the poster even touched a keyboard.

 

[Hrhpd]

I think the reason people aren't as upset about the tortured farm factory animals is because they really don't know or believe it is happening. I have been a vegan for just over a year. Why did I eat meat before that? I was conditioned like most people that it is ok to eat animals, dairy and eggs. It is ok for us to have leather bags and coats. The torture is hidden.

I found out how horrible the truth is. The more I learn the more heartbreaking it is.

I am hoping the outrage of Cecil will prove to be a good thing. All these people who are heartbroken over it are potential vegans in my opinion. I truly believe that most people are good at heart and if they knew how factory animals are treated they would stop participating.

I have to stop myself from being angry when people eat meat or defend eating meat. It's difficult once you know the truth about the abuse. I sit here and wonder how it is allowed. How is it even legal? Then I remind myself that just a year ago I was that person.

We need more education. I think stories like this will help because it opens the conversation.

I could never be a vegan. However, I do get my beef from a dear friend who has a cattle ranch and treats their cattle humanely. My eggs come from my backyard, so I know my chickens are well treated. Same with my dairy products. Luckily I live in an area with many small, organic farms that believe well treated animals = a better product.

You do not have to become a vegan to be concerned about the commercial treatment of animals.

 

[Luv2Run]

Unfortunately, you are correct. And by then, the social media lynch mobs will have moved on to their new target du jour.

Huh, that's weird. I didn't say that. @mnrose said that. Might wanna fix your quote.

 

[Vaughn4380]

This leads me to believe his first shot was not intended to kill but to maim so that he could get the thrill of the hunt.

I can't speak to his thoughts at the time. But when animals are injured they actually become more dangerous. Playing with an injured lion is a good way to shorten your life. I highly doubt that was his plan.

More likely the lion moved at the last second and his shot hit a non-vital area.

 

[Vaughn4380]

Luckily I live in an area with many small, organic farms that believe well treated animals = a better product.

Same here, and the products do taste better than the mass produced junk at the super market!

 

[Luv2Run]

[QUOTE="Luv2Run, post: 54141827, member: 508011]this is very head-patty and finger-waggy.

I can see it being perceived that way, when some get so agitated in the venting echo chamber that they lose track of the fact nothing they say hasn't already been stated several thousand times. Or put more bluntly, the supposed "thunder" in just about every "he's scum" message being posted here had been stolen long, long before the fingers of the poster even touched a keyboard.

Your quoting abilities and interpretation of posts confuse me. *smh* So by your logic, we aren't allowed to agree with other posters on hot topics? Isn't that how discussions work?

When you use phrases like the ones you're using in this thread (i.e. "When some get so agitated...") it laces every post you make with this holier-than-thou attitude that pretty much makes whatever it is you have to say sound like you think you're better than everyone else.

 

[Luv2Run]

I can't speak to his thoughts at the time. But when animals are injured they actually become more dangerous. Playing with an injured lion is a good way to shorten your life. I highly doubt that was his plan.

More likely the lion moved at the last second and his shot hit a non-vital area.

Good to know - thanks for the info; I stand corrected.

 

[gwynne]

I can't speak to his thoughts at the time. But when animals are injured they actually become more dangerous. Playing with an injured lion is a good way to shorten your life. I highly doubt that was his plan.

More likely the lion moved at the last second and his shot hit a non-vital area.

My read is that the dentist decided to try to kill the lion with a cross-bow. (Why? Who knows. Maybe he thought it would make a better "I was there story". )
He wounded the lion, but didn't kill him. Then, 40 hours later, the lion was finally shot dead with a gun.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33695872

 

[Hrhpd]

Is it the fact he was a lion that people are upset, or the fact the lion was illegally shot? I mean, are we hating on the act of legal hunting? Or the act of breaking the laws? This thread has some extreme viewpoints and is actually hard to follow.

I will go on record and say I hate illegal hunting and poachers. These countries have game wardens with managment plans to ensure the species survives for future generations. Poaching reduces the chance my kid will see a [insert any animal you want here] in the wild. But the act of legal hunting is not the issue here.

For me, it is the deliberate illegal poaching of an animal that was easily recognized by his unique features, different than the typical lion (black mane.) And that it was done by a person who already has faced charges for illegal poaching.

It is the act of deliberately luring an animal off a protected reserve to hunt it.

If it was a legal hunt, I would be saddened by the demise of the lion and scratch my head on how the guides would encourage one of their customers to hunt the flagship lion of the reserve that brings many tourists to their country, but I would not want to see the hunter extradited to explore charges against him.

The mere fact that it was an illegal hunt and that there is some speculation in some circles that they targeted this lion for his unusual black mane as a trophy makes me hope that Zimbabwe asks the US to hold up the extradition treaty so that Dr. Palmer can face charges and the Zimbabwe courts can determine whether he was duped or if he needs to be held accountable...Again.

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

Cecil seems like a really strange name for a wild animal. How'd he get that name?

 

[eliza61]

Ok, read about 1/2 the pages so I apologize if I say something that has come out before or been resolved.

1) I hate what this guy has done.
2) because I hate the hunting of lions and other large animals does not mean I don't care about any other concerns. I'm quite capable of having a few opinions all at the same time.
3) I have no problem with the "social" lynching lol, as some call it. face it, we live in a social media world period, end of story. every thing and any thing is immediately public and subject to social critiquing. don't like that, then stay out of the public and don't do idiotic things.
4) I hope they prosecute him with every thing they can. I'm not buying this crap where he "thought" it was legal to hunt where he was. He's a so called professional hunter, he knows exactly where, when and what he can hunt.

 

[gwynne]

Cecil seems like a really strange name for a wild animal. How'd he get that name?

What can I say...a little Goofy break from a serious topic is sometimes not a bad thing.

 

[AnnaFloridaLover]

Is it the fact he was a lion that people are upset, or the fact the lion was illegally shot? I mean, are we hating on the act of legal hunting? Or the act of breaking the laws? This thread has some extreme viewpoints and is actually hard to follow.

I will go on record and say I hate illegal hunting and poachers. These countries have game wardens with managment plans to ensure the species survives for future generations. Poaching reduces the chance my kid will see a [insert any animal you want here] in the wild. But the act of legal hunting is not the issue here.

That's what I'd like to know. People are furious with the dentist for killing a lion but is it only because he was a protected lion and it was probably illegal? Or do they feel the same way about all big game hunters who kill for sport (of which there are many thousands and do it legally with permits). Should the legal lion killers be publicly shamed and should their businesses be forced to close?

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Yes, my mistake. A few of the articles I read stressed that Cecil was endangered which made it doubly wrong. I am a fan of google and usually verify things before posting, but this time I did not. Lesson learned.

Endangered is a tricky term. Sometimes an entire species can be endangered. Sometimes it's a subspecies. Sometimes it's a local population, but not the species (or even subspecies) as a whole. And the term is bantered about incorrectly in the press quite often. African Elephants (for example) are endangered in many specific African countries, but not "endangered" as a species. In fact, they are grossly overpopulated in some areas (Botswana being the worst example). I'm sure the same is true of lions. So, it's an easy term to use incorrectly

 

[Vaughn4380]

My read is that the dentist decided to try to kill the lion with a cross-bow. (Why? Who knows. Maybe he thought it would make a better "I was there story". )

I have no experience with crossbows and cannot give you a reason why someone would choose that for a lion. I do have friends that use bows on deer and black bear. They claim it is actually harder to get a shot with the bow and that makes the hunt more sporting for the animal, and more challenging for the hunter. I can see their point and agree with them. These same friends carry large rifles on our camping/fishing trips up north in case we have problems with something larger (i.e. brown bear). I consider lions to be about the same level of dangerous as a large bear, so I too have to wonder about using a cross bow.