Avatarland is being delayed

[ctl]

I'm glad it's post-poned. Now maybe Disney will have the money to do other expansions. James Cameron is notorious for running waaaaaay over film budgets. Avatar was basically "Dances with Wolves" in space, I would rather see real animals and real cultures. I like the idea of an Australia land that a previous poster mentioned.

 

[ASteelersMidget]

Since clearly 99% of you missed this post, Here it is again. READ IT

Hold on, everybody.

If you trace the threads back through the entire rats nest, from the article quoted above, to the original IGN article, to the original source (an Indiewire Playlist article)...you'll see something very interesting.

Their entire reason for saying the AK Avatar project is delayed is....they expected to see concept art by now. That's it. Their whole reasoning. Not that they've talked to anyone at Disney or WDI or in the Cameron camp. That they haven't seen concept art.

Now, maybe it's true...maybe the project has been put on the back burner/delayed. But I'm not sure the reasoning behind THIS stream of articles is all that solid.

It is NOT postponed or cancelled.

At least not yet. Until we get word from a source that is 9/10 times right or from Disney themselves assume it's all going forward as planned.

 

[MaxsDad]

Since clearly 99% of you missed this post, Here it is again. READ IT



It is NOT postponed or cancelled.

At least not yet. Until we get word from a source that is 9/10 times right or from Disney themselves assume it's all going forward as planned.

wow. that is pretty rude.
Apparently you missed my post about wanting to dream. BTW, this is the rumors part of the board isn't it?

 

[ASteelersMidget]

wow. that is pretty rude.
Apparently you missed my post about wanting to dream. BTW, this is the rumors part of the board isn't it?

I saw it. That's why I said 99%

As for being the rumors board it is but when I see so many posts treating it as fact it just bothers me. The reason is it bothers me is it IS a rumors board.

As for whether this happens or not I don't want it to happen. I HATED Avatar and I disgusted how much money it grossed. I'd be more than happy for it to be cancelled (as long as it's not replaced by Cars Land(don't even get me started on cars land))

 

[MJMcBride]

I do kind of hope avatarland is the next Hyperion Wharf

http://www.jamboeveryone.com/Blog/Entries/2012/9/5_A_Requiem_for_Avatar.html

 

[magicbob]

I would much rather see Australia or some other part of the world that hasn't been showcased by either AK or EPCOT yet.

Another vote for Australia!

 

[pilferk]

Yes you have to invest to get profit and Universal bloomed with HP. it brought not only profit but new visitors, something Disney would die to get, why do you think they are building new rooms, to fill them. So yes, they lost opportunity to earn.

What new rooms are they building?

AOA? Catering to a different demo (families of 5 looking for more affordable options)...and making use of space that was, at least partially, already built out. Also, by and large, panned for it's pricing structure.

DVC? Because they're more profitable (based on opportunity $$) than regular hotel rooms. It's been one of the most profitable arms at Disney in recent years.

Are there any actual new hotel rooms being built, now? Not AOA sections remaining to be opened...but new construction.

Neither recent project really has to do with bringing more folks into the parks. It has to do with enticing people who are staying elsewhere to stay on Disney property. They're seeing steady park attendance increases, already.

The point is: I don't think they think (and I'm not sure I do) that WWOHP would have provided them with a significant boost in PROFITS...especially when considering the demands and restrictions being imposed by JK. I'm not sure they see a source of revenue that outweighed the investment and hurdles they would have to jump through to get it. It definitely wasn't a slam dunk.

Yes they are gorillas but they are not only players, which became obvious with Universal and HP project was exactly what they want, money. They do not have enough ideas to bring new customers, therefore open doors for outside world and benefit from it.

IOA saw a 30% increase in attendance in 2010 and again in 2011....of course, their attendance in 2008 and 2009 had dropped, considerably, so those percentages look a lot more impressive than they might, otherwise.

Guess how much that effected the 5 Disney parks? Zip, zero, nada. No drops in attendance...and some actual growth (comparable to years past). In addtion, IOA has not jumped ahead of any of the Disney parks in terms of attendance numbers/rankings.

No quantifiable changes.

They don't need to be the only players. They are the biggest. They're making record profits. They're increasing per capita guest spending. It sure seems like they're doing just fine without WWOHP.

Charges of "not enough ideas" aren't translating into anything quantifiable. When (or, rather, if) they do, THEN Disney will act (react). At least that's their SOP under Iger.

I am actually talking from business perspective, they kept attendance high by constant discounts and offers. People of course will go as long as kids are born but if place becomes boring to slightly older generation like teens and above, there is a problem. A family with teens will split stay with Universal or other places and this is money they could leave at Disney. FLE will not bring new customers and HP would, that is the whole difference.

Universal has offered discounts, too...even with WWOHP. Most of them during slower seasons (just like Disney). Remember ,the economy still stinks...but Disney isn't feeling much of a pinch. Given their filings...those discounts aren't doing much to effect their bottom line.

But there are ways to reinvest in the parks, drive attendance, and not get in bed with another franchise (and, specifically, HP). They are not Six Flags. They have enough of their own IP's, IP's that are underutilized (most of their Pixar IP's, for example) that could easily have as much effect (at a drastically better financials...because no licensing fees and Disney keeps all the revenue generated) on their bottom line.

And that's what they care about.

As for a family with teens doing split stays....if that were to happen, you'd think that suddenly park attendance at WDW would drop. They haven't. You'd think the average guest length of stay would drop. From the information we have, it hasn't. You'd think revenue and profits would tank. Not so. You'd think room occupancy would drastically drop. It hasn't.

There's no actual evidence that what you say will happen is actually happening. In fact, given the numbers...it looks like a pretty good bet that it's not having the effect you suggest.

On your last sentence....we don't know that yet. FLE isn't open. Neither of us has seen it, and the crowds haven't had access to it (nor has it yet had an effect on attendance or room bookings). YOU can think it's true (and it might be true for your family)....we'll see what happens with MK attendance in 2013. I suspect you'll be pretty surprised, given just the furor around these boards about FLE...and the way I suspect Disney is going to market the heck out of it.

 

[twebber55]

clearly very few here ever wanted avatarland (myself included), so i hope disney listens to the fans and saves themselves some money to spend elsewhere. I didn't see the movie, don't really care to make a point to, and have no interest in future installments. To me, it's kind of conservation sci-fi. That doesn't seem to have much to do with the prevailing animal nature (no pun intended) of ak. Plus, to point out the obvious, it's not a cartoon. While i'm sure there are a fair number of couples and singles that visit wdw, their biggest demographic is obviously families ... Particularly those with young children. I think they've gotta stick with the cartoons because that's what's served them well. I can't imagine anyone going to ak for avatarland. Visit it b/c it's there, sure. And i have no doubt imagineering could do amazing things with just about any theme, but i'd rather see them put that energy elsewhere. How about something with the jungle book in the animal vein? Granted, it's old but it's a classic. Avatar - i don't see it becoming a "classic." sequels doesn't always mean classic. Cartoons, which are more timeless, seem to have more longevity in almost every case.

Incidentally, i so wish wdw would've done harry potter for 2 reasons: 1) i prefer the disney parks - hp (and seuss landing) are my main reasons to visit universal ioa and 2) even though i think universal did a fantastic job with the hp world, i have to think that disney's imagineering could have even trumped that.

clearly?

 

[fuzzlekins]

clearly?

I keep seeing post after post from people who who are poo-pooing Avatarland. The overall vibe seems to be relief that they may be bagging it. Just an observation.

 

[TheRustyScupper]

In an article today from WDWMagic which was citing a story from IGN, it seems that the Avatarland project at WDW is being delayed for now . .

♫ Hallelujah ♫


♫ Hallelujah ♫


♫ Hal-le-lu-jah !!! ♫

 

[jason10mm]

I heard from a 100% unreliable source that Universal is replacing their Marvel area with Avatarland and Disney is gonna but a marvel park next to AK!

I mean, while we are all dreaming and stuff

 

[KellyNY]

What new rooms are they building?

1. AOA? Catering to a different demo (families of 5 looking for more affordable options)...and making use of space that was, at least partially, already built out. Also, by and large, panned for it's pricing structure.

2. The point is: I don't think they think (and I'm not sure I do) that WWOHP would have provided them with a significant boost in PROFITS...especially when considering the demands and restrictions being imposed by JK. I'm not sure they see a source of revenue that outweighed the investment and hurdles they would have to jump through to get it. It definitely wasn't a slam dunk.

3. IOA saw a 30% increase in attendance in 2010 and again in 2011....of course, their attendance in 2008 and 2009 had dropped, considerably, so those percentages look a lot more impressive than they might, otherwise.

4. Guess how much that effected the 5 Disney parks? Zip, zero, nada. No drops in attendance...and some actual growth (comparable to years past). In addtion, IOA has not jumped ahead of any of the Disney parks in terms of attendance numbers/rankings.

No quantifiable changes.

5. They don't need to be the only players. They are the biggest. They're making record profits. They're increasing per capita guest spending. It sure seems like they're doing just fine without WWOHP.

6. Universal has offered discounts, too...even with WWOHP. Most of them during slower seasons (just like Disney). Remember ,the economy still stinks...but Disney isn't feeling much of a pinch. Given their filings...those discounts aren't doing much to effect their bottom line.


7. As for a family with teens doing split stays....if that were to happen, you'd think that suddenly park attendance at WDW would drop. They haven't. You'd think the average guest length of stay would drop. From the information we have, it hasn't. You'd think revenue and profits would tank. Not so. You'd think room occupancy would drastically drop. It hasn't.

There's no actual evidence that what you say will happen is actually happening. In fact, given the numbers...it looks like a pretty good bet that it's not having the effect you suggest.

8. On your last sentence....we don't know that yet. FLE isn't open. Neither of us has seen it, and the crowds haven't had access to it (nor has it yet had an effect on attendance or room bookings). YOU can think it's true (and it might be true for your family)....we'll see what happens with MK attendance in 2013. I suspect you'll be pretty surprised, given just the furor around these boards about FLE...and the way I suspect Disney is going to market the heck out of it.

1. AOA does provide new rooms, regardless for families or not. They also have regular rooms and what do you think will happen to all rooms released by larger families. No matter how you twist it, those are new rooms.

2. How do you know? It provided boost for Universal, more important it brought new people(HP fans), some of those who never even been to Universal. HP is a chance to get new customers and those customers could be with Disney, that is the point.

3. Was decrease as much as 30%? Granted it was slow right before HP, construction, some people were holding trips till grand opening but regardless, there was increase and significant and point is Disney could have it.

4. Who said anything about drop in Disney attendance because of HP? I am talking about lost opportunity to get more people and more profit.

5. Being biggest does not mean to relax and ignore competition and they actually don't. FLE was literally answer to HP and not successful answer, just something they came out with fast, without putting much in it.

6. Yes, they did offered discounts but year round like Disney those few years, free dining, GG, 5/2, kids free, do not even remember all of them but those few years probably nobody paid full price as you could almost always find some discount and according to boards, some people were and are going only because of it.

7. I did not say it happened all of the sudden so no, you will not see drop out of the blue. However, it is constantly happening, Disney ignoring teens and those who wants to see more wild rides and considering many families have both kinds of kids/members they do split stays, evident from this very board. If Disney payed more attention to this, they could keep this money.

8. I agree we did not see it but my point there is nothing new. I do not think there are many people who usually do not go to Disney and know princesses are there, thanks to all commercials, all of the sudden see there FLE and go, why? It is not something new like HP, it is old, same Disney princesses put together. Will attendance increase, yes it will, because just like with Universal, some were holding their trips for few years, but will new people come like for HP, not a chance.

With all being said, I believe Disney made a mistake with HP, maybe it would not be easy to work with JK, they would have to invest more then just building few meet and greets but benefit would be much greater and well worth it.

 

[stitchywoman]

I am apparently the only person here who actually really liked Avatar. I think that, yes, it has been done before just as everyone has said, but really? Is it possible to try to drill into people's heads too many times that killing the planet for resources and ignoring the wildlife and plantlife that are being destroyed is important to be avoided? The movie was beautiful and moving and for those of us who it helped remind about conservation it had that added effect.

That being said, it would be hard to do really well to the point that it would excite me as a land. So many of the things in it were so alien and huge that it would be hard to recreate unless it was a screen. I am so sick of sitting in seats and watching a screen it isn't even funny. Also, the center of the movie is a giant tree, which I am pretty sure AK already has. So while I liked the movie, I don't neccessarily think it is a bad idea for this expansion to become something else.

I have a couple of friends who do an act and one of their lines before they show their whip stunts is to this extent "be careful not to get to close, you might lose an eye. Then you would have to watch Avatar in 2D. Which is just Ferngully." I think that is the best analogy I have heard of any movie. hahahaha.

Lastly, I live in Los Angeles, I have a year pass to DL. I have been to our Cars Land... It isn't as exciting as I had hoped. So I hope that when WDW does it, it is bigger and better. It is gorgeous to look at, the theming is wonderful. However, the major ride is simply test track lite, with the cars on it. Beautiful but not insanely new and exciting. The other two rides are cute rides for the younger set. I have been on them both and enjoyed them but with as long as the lines are, they are in the end kids type rides. The air tires is slow going and needs people to be able to lean in all directions to move it. The less weight the better. Most of the area is shops with Cars merchandise. Cute stuff actually, but I would have liked to see another big ride instead. That all being stated, the food stands that are in the Cones are AWESOME!!!!! Each stand has atleast one signature drink (one even has an alcoholic one) and every one I have tried was yummy. The chili-cone-carne is adorable too and everyone I have seen seems to love it. Sorry just had to throw in my thoughts since going.

At first i thought it was a cool idea but after thinking about ti more I'm kind of hopping that it is not done. If anything, Disney should focus on getting Pleasure Island back to something that is "pleasurable" to visit.

One of the BIG problems Disney has dragging their feet on things. Avatar was out SOOOOO long ago. While there IS a sequel in the works I find it hard to place a fictional planet in a Theme Park centered on "earths" beauty, nature, and animals.

Cars , Brave, Avengers, MORE Lion King! Oz the great and Powerful, national treasure

I would like to second the Pleasure Island idea! Bring back the Adventurer's club please? I know it is probably a long shot but my best friend is so sad he never got to go. I miss it so.

 

[pilferk]

1. AOA does provide new rooms, regardless for families or not. They also have regular rooms and what do you think will happen to all rooms released by larger families. No matter how you twist it, those are new rooms.

I didn't say they weren't new rooms. I asked "what new rooms" and specifically addressed the only two possibilites. Neither of which is really there to try to lure NEW people to Orlando. They're designed to cater to people who are already coming and staying elsewhere.

The point was, if you re-read what I wrote, that those "new rooms" aren't designed to bring in new (as in, new visitors to Orlando) visitors. They were designed to cater to an under-serviced demographic (families of 5) in Disney's hotel offerings.

2. How do you know? It provided boost for Universal, more important it brought new people(HP fans), some of those who never even been to Universal. HP is a chance to get new customers and those customers could be with Disney, that is the point.

Because Disney walked away and didn't do it. If it had been, in their estimation, worthwhile....you'd have WWOHP at WDW.

Which is significantly more evidence than you have, actually.

3. Was decrease as much as 30%? Granted it was slow right before HP, construction, some people were holding trips till grand opening but regardless, there was increase and significant and point is Disney could have it.

No, but it was significant enough that 30% increases don't look nearly as impressive when taking them into account the declines. They are certainly seeing record attendance....but still less than AK or DHS does (by 2 million-ish guests...9.6 million-ish at AK or DHS vs 7.7 million at IOA), and those are widely considered half day/incomplete parks. IOA as at 5.7 million in 2007. So, in 4 years, they've seen an actual increase of 2 million guests....and still trail the closest Disney park by 2 million more.

I'm not saying WWOHP hasn't worked for Universal. It has. But they NEEDED it, really. Disney didn't.

As evidenced by the continuing growth of the WDW parks attendance and the lack of any "slippage" as a result of WWOHP

As an aside, IOA hasn't helped USF much, at all. They're STILL below 2008 attendance levels...which means, likely, some of IOA's increase is actually at the expense of USF.

4. Who said anything about drop in Disney attendance because of HP? I am talking about lost opportunity to get more people and more profit.

How else would you measure your claim that people are doing "split stays" or that IOA is now making a significant differeance in the Orlando Tourism market? Or this claim "They do not have enough ideas to bring new customers, therefore open doors for outside world and benefit from it. " And your insistence Universal/HP is some sort of "danger" to the way Disney is doing things?

So far, no quantifiable effect TO DISNEY.

5. Being biggest does not mean to relax and ignore competition and they actually don't. FLE was literally answer to HP and not successful answer, just something they came out with fast, without putting much in it.

Again, how can you measure that FLE isn't successful when it hasn't opened yet. Answer is: You can't.

There are ways to continue to reinvest in your parks and not sign on to HP. Disney is doing it. The success of those investments...we'll have to wait and see. But they're not stagnating, so trying to argue that HP is/was their only option (or even the slam dunk, obvious, best option) is simply not true.

6. Yes, they did offered discounts but year round like Disney those few years, free dining, GG, 5/2, kids free, do not even remember all of them but those few years probably nobody paid full price as you could almost always find some discount and according to boards, some people were and are going only because of it.

And Disney's bottom line actually got better, not worse. Interesting, no?

Universal offers their fare share of discounts, on their lodgings and the like, too. The difference is: They don't have the sheer amount of hotel rooms Disney does...nor do they have the sheer amount of demand that Disney does. You're going to hear a lot more about Disney Discounts with their tens of thousands of rooms vs Universal with it's few thousand-ish. Especially on Disney-centric boards.

7. I did not say it happened all of the sudden so no, you will not see drop out of the blue. However, it is constantly happening, Disney ignoring teens and those who wants to see more wild rides and considering many families have both kinds of kids/members they do split stays, evident from this very board. If Disney payed more attention to this, they could keep this money.

But you'd see SOME drop. Incremental, minute, but it would exist. And it would continue to trend over time. So simply saying "it's constantly happening" doesn't prove anything. I'm sure it happens with SOME families. Obviously not enough to make much of a difference, though. Simply look at the numbers.

Anecdotal evidence of some families, on these boards, does not make it any sort of mass exodus.

Which means it's not enough to worry Disney.

8. I agree we did not see it but my point there is nothing new. I do not think there are many people who usually do not go to Disney and know princesses are there, thanks to all commercials, all of the sudden see there FLE and go, why? It is not something new like HP, it is old, same Disney princesses put together. Will attendance increase, yes it will, because just like with Universal, some were holding their trips for few years, but will new people come like for HP, not a chance.

In your opinion. But realize...it's just that.

We'll see if total attendance (meaning MK+AK+Epcot+DHS) increases in 2013...if it does, you'll know you were wrong.

What you need to realize is this: Disney does not care, so long as they are making more money than they were before FLE. I'll bet they will be.

The other problem with your point is this: You're basically saying Disney should do something else, that's not Disney, because it's new and not Disney. That's wrongheaded. Disney has built in marketing for their own stuff. They don't pay anyone else licensing fees, and they have complete creative control. It's the whole point behind having DISNEY parks. Yes, it's more princesses, etc. That's the point. And it seems to have worked quite well for them over the past 40-ish years, no?

With all being said, I believe Disney made a mistake with HP, maybe it would not be easy to work with JK, they would have to invest more then just building few meet and greets but benefit would be much greater and well worth it.

All your opinion.

Disney obviously disagreed with you. After all their internal analysis, with all the data they have at their disposal, and with all those guest surveys they do...they didn't agree.

I'm inclined to think they had pretty good reasons for doing what they did.

 

[aznshents]

...
All your opinion.

Disney obviously disagreed with you. After all their internal analysis, with all the data they have at their disposal, and with all those guest surveys they do...they didn't agree.

I'm inclined to think they had pretty good reasons for doing what they did.

to you for supporting your arguments with solid evidence. Too many people on this board like to believe they know the reasons behind certain decisions and/or every single factor that goes into making big decisions such as theme park expansions.

 

[wishing4PA]

I'm on the fence about Avatarland itself - I won't jump for joy at its (possible) demise, or cry, but it never really made much sense to me. Maybe I would like it, if I saw the movie, but I would really much rather they stuck to Disney movies if they're going to theme a land around a movie. Even though WWoHP looks awesome, I don't really think it would belong in WDW either.

The idea above of Australia-land would make more sense to me. Can you envision a backdrop of Sydney's opera house on one side, and Ayers Rock on the other? And who wouldn't want to eat as the fantastic new "barbie" TS restaurant I just made up? Although ... they should probably get the approval of the Aussie government and aboriginal leaders first.

Or Pirateland! Look how this could work:
- tropical themed, a lot of parrots, etc near entrance
- draw ideas from the south seas and caribbean
- lots of water for visual interest/cooling
- wouldn't need so many live fish, but perhaps a stingray petting area
- monkeys monkeys monkeys (live)
- swinging vine mini playground
- possible rides/attractions
crab theme (could work for an outdoor amusement park/Dumbo style ride
snake theme could work for a coaster
some specific spinoff ride from POTC movies (ignoring that they
are spun off from a ride themselves)
also base rides any other DISNEY movies that fit the tropical theme
- incorporate tropical colors, rainforest educational activities, etc.

The key is, they could create a whole new land based on any part of our real world and/or history, and do that while incorporating real world animals and Disney movies. Why, oh, why a fake world on a non-Disney intellectual property? (I'm okay with old fables and legends that are public domain and have stood up to the test of time.) So maybe I won't jump for joy about Avatar's demise, but I do think Disney could do better.

 

[DCTooTall]

I keep seeing post after post from people who who are poo-pooing Avatarland. The overall vibe seems to be relief that they may be bagging it. Just an observation.

I think that could be in based in part on a couple factors.

1. The people here who are looking forward to the potential of the new Pandora area have started to get tired of posting in every thread on the "Avatarland sucks! It doesn't fit" genre of trying to get people to give something they don't know anything about a chance.

2. This is a Disney Fan Forum.... and just like there are a LARGE number of Hardcore Disney Fans who automatically badmouth or think less of the Universal parks because 'they aren't Disney', You will see a larger percentage of people posting here automatically thinking bad about the Pandora section of AK because 'It isn't Disney'.

3. In general, People are always MUCH more likely to complain about something then post something positive about it. It happens everywhere.

4. The people who are indifferent about the Pandora project or have yet to make up their mind about it due to he lack of any concrete details on it yet, Aren't likely to be spending time reading the Avatar rumor threads around here.

And Don't forget.... While the Disney fan community on sites like the DIS may be very vocal in their love of Disney and thoughts on all things Disney... We are still a very small percentage of the overall number of Disney Guests who annually visit the parks. Even if there is a majority of our Demographic which is against this idea, It doesn't mean that would translate into the larger group of people who go to Disney any given year. It also may not be indicative of the feelings of those who have yet to go to Disney....which might be the same demo Disney is trying to potentially interest in giving them a shot.

1. AOA does provide new rooms, regardless for families or not. They also have regular rooms and what do you think will happen to all rooms released by larger families. No matter how you twist it, those are new rooms.

2. How do you know? It provided boost for Universal, more important it brought new people(HP fans), some of those who never even been to Universal. HP is a chance to get new customers and those customers could be with Disney, that is the point.

3. Was decrease as much as 30%? Granted it was slow right before HP, construction, some people were holding trips till grand opening but regardless, there was increase and significant and point is Disney could have it.

4. Who said anything about drop in Disney attendance because of HP? I am talking about lost opportunity to get more people and more profit.

5. Being biggest does not mean to relax and ignore competition and they actually don't. FLE was literally answer to HP and not successful answer, just something they came out with fast, without putting much in it.

6. Yes, they did offered discounts but year round like Disney those few years, free dining, GG, 5/2, kids free, do not even remember all of them but those few years probably nobody paid full price as you could almost always find some discount and according to boards, some people were and are going only because of it.

7. I did not say it happened all of the sudden so no, you will not see drop out of the blue. However, it is constantly happening, Disney ignoring teens and those who wants to see more wild rides and considering many families have both kinds of kids/members they do split stays, evident from this very board. If Disney payed more attention to this, they could keep this money.

8. I agree we did not see it but my point there is nothing new. I do not think there are many people who usually do not go to Disney and know princesses are there, thanks to all commercials, all of the sudden see there FLE and go, why? It is not something new like HP, it is old, same Disney princesses put together. Will attendance increase, yes it will, because just like with Universal, some were holding their trips for few years, but will new people come like for HP, not a chance.

With all being said, I believe Disney made a mistake with HP, maybe it would not be easy to work with JK, they would have to invest more then just building few meet and greets but benefit would be much greater and well worth it.

1. AoA may be new rooms, But I don't think those new rooms will translate into increased park attendance. AoA's new rooms target a demo which previously was forced to either rent multiple smaller rooms, or fork over MUCH more $$ for DVC Villas.....If they were staying onsite. Because of the costs of multiple smaller rooms, or DVC Villas, It's also much more likely that families of that size were staying offsite due to the lack of 'affordable' onsite options for their family. IMHO, I think AoA is intended more to try and fill a need within Disney's onsite options that was virtually unmet, instead of trying to attract new guests to the resort. The bonus is that by giving these families who have moved offsite due to the lack of 'affordable' rooms on property, not only does Disney regain their vacation hotel $$, but can also now utilize their existing tools to lock people into spending all their money onsite such as ME and Disney Transportation since these families won't be required to rent a car anymore to get from their hotel to the parks.... and therefor be tempted to eat offsite.

2. & 3. I honestly don't think that HP would've had the same impact at Disney that it did at Universal. Universal's numbers were extremely depressed for several years prior to HP's arrival. They definitely weren't growing as much as Disney or the general area's attendance numbers were growing. In many ways, for YEARS Universal has been in Disney's Shadow, and a large number of people either didn't even know it existed before arriving in Florida, or didn't think it was worth the time or money to give it a shot. For Universal, HP changed all that. With the Hype and Advertising surrounding HP's opening, MANY MANY more people learned that "Oh! There is a Universal Park in Orlando.... and it's not just a studio tour!". It also Gave people a reason to actually give the parks a chance.... including those hardcore Disney types who had their Disney blinders on when it came to anything non-disney in the Central Florida area. If you look at posts around the DIS over the past couple years, the the fact IOA isn't showing any signs of losing the gains it's made since WWoHP opened [and is continuing to show some gains], You can see that the WWoHP's biggest influence for Universal wasn't that it was a major show-stopper Must-see Attraction in and of itself (Although it is quite amazing), But that it helped the parks gain some exposure so they could poke their head out from behind Disney's Shadow.... And gave people a reason to see what they had to offer, which has resulted in their discovering they Universal offers a very good product that is much closer to the Disney style/quality of park experience than it is the Six Flags style/quality.

Disney may have had some smaller short-term gains from getting the WWoHP, but because of it's existing size, offerings, and notoriety by the public, It would not have had the same impact on the bottom line as WWoHP had at Universal. (And that's even Assuming that Disney created something comparable to what Universal did, which isn't a guarantee due to it's current management and recent track record. the Forbidden Journey attraction is also an evolution of the Spiderman Ride tech at Universal which is over 10yrs old now.... which Disney has yet to really show the desire and/or ability to offer something on the same level. Considering the flack the Voyage of the Little Mermaid is getting, Do you think WWoHP@Disney would have the same impact if it's signature attraction ended up being an omnimover ride thru of Hogwarts instead of the height/size restricted flying-bench mayhem that Universal anchored on?)


5. I'm still not convinced that the FLE is an actual "response" to Universal's WWoHP. When you get out from under the hype, FLE is an 'expansion' that fills 2 (or 3) needs that the Magic Kingdom had reasons to meet. With the Introduction of the DDP, the MK's lack of good TS restaurants has become much more apparent. FLE meets that need by adding another TS restaurant in the form of BoG. The MK is the only park that regularly has to deal with Capacity closures during the extremely busy holiday time periods. The FLE, and new attractions within, offer a significant increase in the number of guests the park can house, thereby allowing them to cram more people into the parks during those busy periods and possibly avoid the need for as many capacity closures. AND arguably..... Fantasyland is one of the most popular/iconic sections of the MK, and therefor is the most crowded land within the park for the majority of the day.... and it doesn't help that it's attractions are relatively low-capacity attractions. The Addition of an omnimover style attraction within Fantasyland will greatly help in 'eating' the Fantasyland crowds. Since these are all entirely self-serving reasons for Disney to greenlight and build the FLE, I really don't see a reason why it should be considered a 'response' to the WWoHP other than potentially the timing of constructions..... but even that likely is just a coincidence due to the lead time required for a major project and the advantages for Disney in building when the economy took a tumble.

 

[pilferk]

to you for supporting your arguments with solid evidence. Too many people on this board like to believe they know the reasons behind certain decisions and/or every single factor that goes into making big decisions such as theme park expansions.

Thanks.

To be fair, it's hard to do. It's not like we have complete access to all the data that would paint the full picture. We have dribs and drabs that come out via 3rd parties (TEA attendance figures), snippets in sec filings, or a couple lines in business magazines.

Then we have to connect the dots. And, I"m sure, sometimes the picture we get at the end isn't nearly the picture the dots were supposed to make.

But one thing we DO know: DISNEY does have all that data, and we know they look at it at an almost obsessive level. They're not always right (or don't appear to be...witness DCA 1.0), for sure. But they're right a lot more often than they get given credit for, via second guessing.

 

[KellyNY]

I didn't say they weren't new rooms. I asked "what new rooms" and specifically addressed the only two possibilites. Neither of which is really there to try to lure NEW people to Orlando. They're designed to cater to people who are already coming and staying elsewhere.

The point was, if you re-read what I wrote, that those "new rooms" aren't designed to bring in new (as in, new visitors to Orlando) visitors. They were designed to cater to an under-serviced demographic (families of 5) in Disney's hotel offerings.




Because Disney walked away and didn't do it. If it had been, in their estimation, worthwhile....you'd have WWOHP at WDW.

Which is significantly more evidence than you have, actually.



No, but it was significant enough that 30% increases don't look nearly as impressive when taking them into account the declines. They are certainly seeing record attendance....but still less than AK or DHS does (by 2 million-ish guests...9.6 million-ish at AK or DHS vs 7.7 million at IOA), and those are widely considered half day/incomplete parks.


I'm not saying WWOHP hasn't worked for Universal. It has. But they NEEDED it, really. Disney didn't.

As evidenced by the continuing growth of the WDW parks attendance and the lack of any "slippage" as a result of WWOHP



How else would you measure your claim that people are doing "split stays" or that IOA is now making a significant differeance in the Orlando Tourism market? And your insistence they're some sort of "danger" to the way Disney is doing things?

So far, no quantifiable effect.



Again, how can you measure that FLE isn't successful when it hasn't opened yet. Answer is: You can't.

There are ways to continue to reinvest in your parks and not sign on to HP. Disney is doing it. The success of those investments...we'll have to wait and see. But they're not stagnating, so trying to argue that HP is/was their only option (or even the slam dunk, obvious, best option) is simply not true.



And Disney's bottom line actually got better, not worse. Interesting, no?

Universal offers their fare share of discounts, on their lodgings and the like, too. The difference is: They don't have the sheer amount of hotel rooms Disney does...nor do they have the sheer amount of demand that Disney does. You're going to hear a lot more about Disney Discounts with their tens of thousands of rooms vs Universal with it's few thousand-ish. Especially on Disney-centric boards.



But you'd see SOME drop. Incremental, minute, but it would exist. And it would continue to trend over time. So simply saying "it's constantly happening" doesn't prove anything. I'm sure it happens with SOME families. Obviously not enough to make much of a difference, though. Simply look at the numbers.

Anecdotal evidence of some families, on these boards, does not make it any sort of mass exodus.

Which means it's not enough to worry Disney.




In your opinion. But realize...it's just that.

We'll see if total attendance (meaning MK+AK+Epcot+DHS) increases in 2013...if it does, you'll know you were wrong.

What you need to realize is this: Disney does not care, so long as they are making more money than they were before FLE. I'll bet they will be.

The other problem with your point is this: You're basically saying Disney should do something else, that's not Disney, because it's new and not Disney. That's wrongheaded. Disney has built in marketing for their own stuff. They don't pay anyone else licensing fees, and they have complete creative control. It's the whole point behind having DISNEY parks. Yes, it's more princesses, etc. That's the point. And it seems to have worked quite well for them over the past 40-ish years, no?



All your opinion.

Disney obviously disagreed with you. After all their internal analysis, with all the data they have at their disposal, and with all those guest surveys they do...they didn't agree.

I'm inclined to think they had pretty good reasons for doing what they did.

The only reason Disney walked away or was it actually JK who walked away, is because Disney got a huge ego and they did got scared when Universal got HP contract and this is why they came out with FLE.
I think you getting me wrong, I am not suggesting that Disney suffers because of HP or that they needed it desperately, I suggest that HP turned to be a success bringing money and new customers and Disney could use it. There is no such thing as too much profit. Instead they got competition on their hands. Game changed, people go to Universal more while they could go to Disney.
The only way to prove that Disney made no mistake with HP, is to show that project turned to be lame and unsuccessful and no matter how you twist it, it is simply not true.
So all the talking about people spending more money, attendance goes up not even related to the fact that people could spend even more and attendance could be better filling those rooms already built and being built.
Universal simply showed those biggest gorillas that they can do things just as good. As for half day parks. Universal is compact, less walking, more hit rides, less fillers. You will do much more in half day at Universal then you will at Disney because rides are spread, because there are only that many popular rides in each park. Obviously you need more time for Disney but how much time you actually waste with all the transportation and walking? And having 4 parks is nice but 2 of them are half day parks and not because you can complete it in half day but because there is not much to do there. How many of us combine DHS and AK in one day and go there only to hit few rides. Disney got a lot of work to do with those 2 and with Universal breathing at their necks they better do it fast. Disney maybe be biggest but it is not a time to relax, there is a lot of competition going on and believe me they know, this is why they came out with Avatarland and we will see if they actually drop it or will be smart and create something great and well needed.

 

[pilferk]

the Forbidden Journey attraction is also an evolution of the Spiderman Ride tech at Universal which is over 10yrs old now.... which Disney has yet to really show the desire and/or ability to offer something on the same level. Considering the flack the Voyage of the Little Mermaid is getting, Do you think WWoHP@Disney would have the same impact if it's signature attraction ended up being an omnimover ride thru of Hogwarts instead of the height/size restricted flying-bench mayhem that Universal anchored on?)

First up...thanks for saying, in sum total, what I was trying to say...but phrasing it much better.

Second...also, I think Universal purchased exclusive rights to the K-arm tech used in Forbidden Journey. Maybe they don't do that if they don't get HP...but it's one more bit of evidence that Disney might not have been able to do (or willing to do) the same thing.