Adventureland in MK to open at 10 a.m. daily beginning Sunday

[KNWVIKING]

***"Ever been there with a six year old who can't wait to see Mickey?"***

Actually no. Hopefully in a few years I'll find out with some grandkids.

***"Gee, you can justify anything as long as you know what everyone else does."***

AV, I'm not trying to justify anything. I simply asked a question about something I don't know. I was actually hoping to hear from a CM that works back there.

DK: Moss was still having back spasmism, he was laying on the sidelines getting his back stretched whenever the defense was on the field. Kinda looked like his first year with the Vikes, Cunningham throwing them long fly balls,Moss out jumping everybody for them. The Vikes ended last year 3-0, started 4-0 ..... Could be on their way to a record 5th Superbowl loss.

 

[PKS44]

Mk is the most crowded and it has been nice to have several ways to approach the park with starting on the left or the right or the middle and working your way around...BUT now they are taking out the starting on the Left---and I have always been bothered by the ToonTown later as it does put more people in there at any one time to have it open fewer hours and more people elsewhere at the times it is closed---none of this is a deal breaker-but it detracts from my former feelings at Disney -like the "kiss goodnight" the talking trashcans/drinking fountains/singing on Main Street feeling that wow! they throw in extra stuff wherever you turn feeling and leaves me with a gee-they are really hurting to have to do this feeling...that is sad.

 

[raidermatt]

The 49'ers are in disarray... Hopefully the Raiders will get back on track before we play the Vikes in November, cause they do look good right now.

How many people actually make a bee-line to get to Toontown ?

But you see Vike, if we are trying to keep Disney on course, and keep it different from the rest, the answer doesn't really matter. Disney was different because they didn't look to save nickels and dimes (relatively speaking) by asking questions like this. To them, the consistency of the product was most important, and when they did make compromises, it was usually out of true financial necessity.

"The philosophy" says you wouldn't want guests to start to wonder what parts of the park would be open when they arrived. Its says that having guests see closed areas is simply bad "Show", and it was a "Show" that Disney was providing. They felt that in the long run, maintaining the consistency of the product was going to make them more successful than compromising that consistency to improve this quarter's margins.

Now, that doesn't mean that nobody in Disney gets this at all, or that they are running the place like a shoelace factory in Thailand... but they are falling short of their own high standards, which is sad, and, in the long run, detrimental to them financially.

 

[KNWVIKING]

I agree that closed areas are "bad show" and the right side of my brain agrees with the "philosophy". But the left side of my brain wants to know how many people are actually in ToonTown at 9:15,9:30,9:45 and 10:00 because maybe if I'm forced to make a cut, where will the cut affect the least number of people ?

My heart says keep the lights on till midnite and EE everyday, but the logic in me says otherwise.

PS: Did the NFL banned Geratol at the end of last season ? Your guys are showing some age this year.

 

[DisOrBust]

I was just thinking of getting out of Car #3.......

 

[ohanafamily]

Mind If I jump in,

I agree with a lot of what Baron has said, and I am still in car #1.
Matt, It Is bad show plain and simple.

We are all arguing semantics and all agreeing on the major issues.

PlanoGirl you are dead on as well.

One thing I would like to add...I have been to US. I am not a coaster fanatic, but I enjoy them. Spiderman is WAY COOL (when it is working); I have been on it more times when it has a problem than when it works properly.

Bluto's Bilgwater adventure is a whole lot longer than the river ride in AK (where there isn't enough shade). No doubt it was a cost cutting measure to make it a 3 minute ride, not a 5-10 minute ride. My point is if the ride were longer you can pile more boats in, and thus maintain a constant throughput. I have a big problem waiting an hour for a 3 minute ride to cool me off that doesn't do a good job of it.

I have a friend who used to take his family to WDW every year. 2 years ago he went to US/IOA and hasn't gone back to WDW since. The hotels treat him like a king, he says the parks are cleaner, and the CM's don't have attitude problems.

From my experience, the park is very clean. The Employees are very nice. Unless you go during the Fright Nights, they aren't chasing you around in Ski Masks with Chainsaws. They are trying to meet the Disney Standards of old, and why shouldn't they, they have a lot of CM's that go laid off as a cost cutting measure.

My point? Disney is still #1, but with things like later openings of adventureland (and Toon Town) they are showing a gradual lowering of standards. This is bothering all of us.

JMHO

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I agree that closed areas are "bad show" and the right side of my brain agrees with the "philosophy".

GREAT!! Then we’re half way home!!!

But the left side of my brain wants to know how many people are actually in ToonTown at 9:15,9:30,9:45 and 10:00

Tell your left side, it doesn’t matter! It simply doesn’t matter. Bad SHOW is bad SHOW!! And that cannot happen in Disney! It is basic to the philosophy! But, if that little voice still won’t shut up…

because maybe if I'm forced to make a cut, where will the cut affect the least number of people ?

Forced to make a cut!?!? FORCED to make a cut?!?! Ah!! Don’t you see? THAT is the very problem! Once you see that Ei$ner is simply using the parks as a cash cow, it becomes very easy. All the pieces fall into place and you can clearly see where that finger of blame should be pointed.

In the end it doesn’t matter if ABC has rotten ratings, or that the internet venture still isn’t paid off or if attendance is down (which it is NOT) or if the CEO bilked the company out of over three quarters of a billion dollars or even if only two guests visit ToonTown the first hour. The SHOW must go on. And as I said before, bad SHOW is bad SHOW!! All the rest of the ‘left brain’ stuff is just rhetoric and spin to justify, excuse and confuse the single reason why Disney used to be great! The SHOW!!

My heart says keep the lights on till midnite and EE everyday, but the logic in me says otherwise.

It’s tough to do, I know! I had a real hard time at first. It seems to fly in the face of logic at times. But that’s just what makes “Walt’s” philosophy so absolutely WONDERFUL!! “GIVE THE PEOPLE EVERYTHING YOU CAN GIVE THEM”!! How magnificent! How anti-corporate!! And how really simple!

So tell your ‘logic’ to shut-up!! Listen to your heart!! It is dead on!!


Scoop:

Gee, Baron. I didn't even realize I had posted in this thread. Glad you took the time to take an unnecessary swipe at someone who isn't even involved in the discussion.

You didn’t. And I didn’t bring you in on it. And you left off the best line. The line that had the ‘smiley’ inherent within it. The, “Give me a little credit”.

But, you’re right. I didn’t put one in. And I keep forgetting how overly sensitive you can be. So let me correct it now.

I haven’t been to M:S yet. I hoping it ‘exceeds’ my expectations. I fear it won’t from the various accounts I’ve heard. But, we’ll see. Philharmonic the same way. I’m hoping for a decent “D” Ticket. Like Lion King was. Like the Mickey Mouse Review was. I’ll be happy (Hell, I’ll be THRILLED) if that happens. But I’m not jumping up & down because of what a guy like Scoop says!!! Good grieve, give me some credit!!

It’s funny. A thread like this, with so many wonderful ideas, full of business ideals and philosophy and the only thing you decide requires an answer is a misinterpretation of what I considered an OBVIOUS tongue-in-cheek ‘aside’ amongst friends. How about lightening up a bit, eh?

After all, it’d sure help to promote civility around here.

Typical.

 

[KNWVIKING]

Baron, the "philosophy" is great. But the mistakes of the past simply cannot be ignored. Disney has debt to pay on GO.Com, Family Channel,sports teams,ABC,etc. They can't simply tell creditors to forget that debt because Walts philosophy was to keep the theme parks pristine, fully staffed, open till midnite,etc. Survival of the company dictates that cash from the parks goes to pay other debt. And selling those other entities off at a huge loss isn't the solution either because that will just add to the debt burden. The only answer I come up with is that they have to ride the storm out. IF the future brightens for all the Disney entities to where they become self sufficiant and ME still milks the parks for every dime, then all my business/logic arguments against the philosophy will evaporate. But until then my logical side can accept CERTAIN cutbacks.

 

[crusader]

scoop -

Why not just quote Pirate (way back on page one) and type the word DITTO!

 

[DisneyKidds]

Survival of the company dictates that cash from the parks goes to pay other debt.

Sorry Vike, we aren't allowed to factor in the business realities of today given everything that has already transpired. We are supposed to say that it shouldn't have happened the way it did and this is what they should have been doing all along. Of course that and a nickel might get you a cup of coffee . That being said, factoring in the business realities of today I still think there has to be a better solution than taking an action that has a direct impact on show and the guest.

.............but it wasn't obvious to me that it was tongue in cheek.

And some people don't like smilies...............but I'm sure they could have helped in this case.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Baron, the "philosophy" is great.

Yeah! It is isn’t it? So pure. So simple! So… so… well… So DISNEY!!

But the mistakes of the past simply cannot be ignored.

I agree!! That’s why I’ve got the tar and feathers ready!!

They can't simply tell creditors to forget that debt because Walts philosophy was to keep the theme parks pristine, fully staffed, open till midnite,etc.

That is EXACTLY why they have to strictly adhere to the PHILOSOPHY!! It is the ONLY way to insure that there is a future. And that Disney will not slowly (or rather quickly, depending on your point of view) becomes mundane!! Becomes ordinary. Becomes like (yikes and gasp!!) IOA!!! Truly a fate worse than death!

Survival of the company dictates that cash from the parks goes to pay other debt.

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!! Good God! Anyone can solve a problem by throwing money at it!! The trick here is to be creative. Earn that ¾ of billion!! It is NOT a time to withdraw. To cut services to the ONLY division within the conglomerate that can earn that type of cash! It is NOT the time to kill the golden goose, just to save face on those terrible business decisions of the past!!

It IS time to draw more people into the parks! Not with some cheap gimmick or snow-globe parade, but with honest to God VALUE!! You know, like in “Walt’s” philosophy!! And in the mean time, you capture yet another generation of pure Disney NUTS!!!

IF the future brightens for all the Disney entities to where they become self sufficient and ME still milks the parks for every dime, then all my business/logic arguments against the philosophy will evaporate.

That’s already happened several times during his eighteen year reign.

Why are you cutting him more slack!?

 

[KMovies]

Let's get some facts here:

ABC ratings are down ... however, purchased with ABC was ESPN and all of the cable channels that came with it.

1/3 of Disney profits are from ESPN and the cable channels

1/3 of Disney profits are the theme parks

While we bash ABC ... it was a great decision to purchase it because of everything that came with it. Analysts did say that ESPN was aloen worth the price they paid for ABC/ESPN.

And the quote about if 2 people would be in Toon Town ... then it should be open cause it is bad show. It would be bad show to only have 2 guests in a land because it would look like the park was on the verge of closing. Really, no one would ever consider having the land open for just 2 guests. I'm sure there would be more but they do have guest counts that would back up the decisions made.

Let's just open the park one hour later - wouldn't that solve everyones woes about Adventureland and Toontown opening 1 hour late.

Yes - Disneyworld could be 24/7 - they'd have guests at 4 AM if the park was open. Of course, next year there wouldn't be a resort cause the losses would mount. And the actors at the 4:00 AM Festival of the Lion King show would be really upset performing for a couple of teenagers.

If you paid the bills at Disney ... you might have a different opinion.

 

[crusader]

It is NOT a time to withdraw. To cut services to the ONLY division within the conglomerate that can earn that type of cash! It is NOT the time to kill the golden goose, just to save face on those terrible business decisions of the past!!

Very well said.

But this one isn't really death to the golden goose. It makes not one bit of sense to me in terms of saving money.

Now, if they are going to spend that hour working on Frontierland which is in need of a serious overhaul - get rid of the stench at Splash Mountain, fix the attractions, curb the birds and spruce up the place then I say, YES! DO IT! The sooner the better!

 

[raidermatt]

And the quote about if 2 people would be in Toon Town ... then it should be open cause it is bad show. It would be bad show to only have 2 guests in a land because it would look like the park was on the verge of closing.

I guess its fair to fight hyperbole with hyperbole, but it really doesn't get us anywhere does it?

First, that's not bad Show. The number of guests in attendance does not determine the quality of the "Show", in this context. Yes, if nobody shows up, there's obviously a problem with the appeal (DCA), but that's not bad Show. The "Show" refers to the movie set-like illusion being created, as well as the complete and consistent offering being made to the guests. If that's happening, and nobody is showing up, you need to figure out why it isn't appealing to folks, but closing the area does not improve the Show.

Second, we all know there would be more than 2 people. Yes, the place would not be as crowded as in the early afternoon (when it can be a zoo), but isn't that the whole point? Isn't that why EE exists? Because there are guests who want to visit when the areas are NOT crowded, and heading there during EE or immediately after opening allows them to do that? Similar to later closings, the early hours provide guests with options, instead of attempting to force them into the same itinerary as everyone else. You let the guest make the choice they want to make, and they will be more likely to return in the future, which is better for your business in the long run.

If you paid the bills at Disney ... you might have a different opinion.

If you collected the profits at Disney, and wanted to see those profits continue for decades to come, you might have a different opinion as well.

They can't simply tell creditors to forget that debt because Walts philosophy was to keep the theme parks pristine, fully staffed, open till midnite,etc. Survival of the company dictates that cash from the parks goes to pay other debt.

Its one thing to take the profits from the parks to cover mistakes in other areas. That's bad, but its taking it to another level when you change the way you manage the parks because of mistakes made in other areas.

The parks have been successful for a reason, and all those other problems that have had the stock price in the dumper for years do not change that. Problems in other divisions don't change what the guests want from the parks, just as problems at the parks wouldn't change what viewers want from ESPN.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

If you paid the bills at Disney ... you might have a different opinion.

You know, every time I hear something like this I really wonder just how totally insane Walt had to have been!! And I wonder how in the world he ever turned a profit, enough of a profit to actually consider building a city, all those years ago. Heck, by this reasoning they shouldn’t have been able to make their first payroll! Do you really think the bills were any less, ratio wise, than they are today?

Or could it be that Walt may have understood something about human nature and the concept of VALUE that seems way too elusive for the current regime to grasp?

Mr. Crusader!! I thought we might hear from you on this one.

Very well said.

Thanks!! I try!

But this one isn't really death to the golden goose.

No! Certainly not! Not this alone. It is merely one cut (well maybe two cuts) in the game of “Death by a thousand cuts” that this administration is playing. But one swift ax to the neck or a thousands cuts… It’s still a death!

It makes not one bit of sense to me in terms of saving money.

Then why are they doing it?

You let the guest make the choice they want to make, and they will be more likely to return in the future, which is better for your business in the long run.

Matt!! As always, partner, you are dead on!! And you raise an interesting intangible. Choice. Once again Disney is limiting my choice. They are reducing options. They are taking away my ability to avoid the crowd with my little ones early in the morning. So I am forced to ‘join the herd’ with everyone else. And by my mere presence, making it more crowded than usual for the herd!!

Limiting choices. Reducing options. That’s really what’s it’s all about. They are forcing us to tour Disney “their way”. To fit neatly into a profile. They’ve decided that touring should be counterclockwise. I really don’t know why but that is the unintended consequence. And they decided that little ones don’t need to see Mickey without an hour wait, AFTER 10:00 am!

It used to be that Disney was LOADED with options!! If it was Disney it had options! But lately they’ve been saying, “Options! Options! We don’t need no options! We don’t need to show you no stinkin’ options!!”*

And that just plain SUCKS!!!










* Old movie reference (if read with a Mexican accent)!

 

[bretsyboo]

I just don't understand, it's such simple logic to keep it open, such simple logic.

It's a story we all know, but I'll repeat it anyway. Walt once argued against the Park Operating Committee on the subject of spending $350,000 on a Christmas Parade. They argued to Walt that with or without the parade the holidays would draw in the crowds. Walt said, "It'll be worth the investment. If they ever stop coming, it'll cost ten times that much to get them back."

I don't know how many people would never come back because of the decision to close Adv. land for the 9AM hour. I think it's apparent that this decision has angered many people, and I also think that for some it must be the last straw. For some, I'm sure it's not worth the money anymore. I don't know how many, but I do know one thing:

This sure won't help Disney gain a single fan.

"We've got to keep giving them more," Walt said. This isn't giving anything more, this is taking away.

The two predominant arguements seem to be that 1.there wouldn't be anyone at Mickeys toontown at that time of day anyway, and 2.So what? by this arguement Disney should remain open 24/7.

It's just silly thinking.

These arguements are just silly. The first hour of the day is a precious hour. It's an hour where you can do what you want with virtually no wait. You can go to the place that fills you with the most magic and really get your fill without massive crowds swarming around you.

To think that meeting mickey and friends, and SEEING WHERE THEY LIVE isn't the most magical part of a huge percentage of children is just naive. In this 1st hour when the crowds are light kids can spend far longer with the characters then they could at any other time.

I'm not a father so it doesn't have much value to me yet, but I will be someday and I can't imagine any better way of passing on my love of Disney then by letting my kids fulfill their dreams of meeting their heroes and getting to spend some real time with them.

I have a friend who just started in Entertainment. One of her first days she was assigned to be Pluto. On one of her sets a 2 year old girl walked up to Pluto and said "I've been waiting my whole life to meet you." I'm sure that child reveled every second she got to spend with Pluto, and to think that with that extra hour it could have been more than hi, click, bye, next is just sad. Give those kids that hour, and you'll give them a lifetime of memories.

For the record my 1st stop is always adventureland. I'm usually on the 1st jungle cruise boat, I walk the tree when I am fresh and no one else wants to, Pirates is a walk on, if you choose to go on aladdin this is the only time when lines aren't insane, and getting the perfect noncrowded and background noiseless seat in the Enchanted Tiki Room is a must. It's where I always immediatly went to get my Disney fill, and now I can't. And I'm sad.

As for the 24hr. thing Disney obviously has people working their 24 hrs. a day doing both maintenance, custodial, and planning. All of these are essential to preserving the magic for obvious reasons. Of course this really isn't even the point.

When the park is open it should be OPEN. Disney shouldn't be telling guests what they can do, it should be letting them choose what they want to do. Part of giving a guest more more more is the giving part. It's a shame to think that becuase of these closings every other attraction will now have longer lines, while people wanting to enter adventureland will be held back by a rope condemning them from entering while they view a part of the park completely void of guests-something Walt said he never wanted to happen.

You don't sell tickets to a movie, and then show 85% of it. It's not worth the money. You don't open a themed park partially to guests who paid to have it all. Cutting park hours sucks, it does, but cutting land hours is, well, ugly. It looks and feels bad, and that's not how I want Disney to affect me.

 

[ohanafamily]

It's a shame to think that becuase of these closings every other attraction will now have longer lines, while people wanting to enter adventureland will be held back by a rope condemning them from entering while they view a part of the park completely void of guests-something Walt said he never wanted to happen.

This is the "Bad Show"

if you choose to go on aladdin this is the only time when lines aren't insane,

Hmmm, I thought this was a Tacky Ride that no one rides

Seriously, I think they are trying cutbacks and should be expanding to stay ahead of the competition. If you don't mind me getting nasty, US/IOA is not the destination WDW is, but the parks are kept as clean as Disney used to. They are spending money for thrill rides to attract a segment that Disney has been ignoring and is now starting to go after. They are investing in the newest technology. There are a lot of people who were laid off from Disney, many of them Imagineers, that are imprting their work into IOA/US. Just look at the Dueling Dragons; that was a concept from AK that Disney tabled and when they fired the imagineer in charge...look where it wound up(I don't remember all of the details, but I remember reading this somewhere, please feel free to correct me). Again US isn't Disney, but it seems to me that their direction is to try and do what Disney did of old. You can especially see it in the newer rides at IOA.

 

[Peter Pirate]

Ohanafamily, you're seeing different things from USF than others. There is definately no conceeding that USF is cleaner than Disney and their hours are in flux and generally lower than Disney. Further Disney just opened M:S and announced E:E so that USF no longer has a lock on at least attempting to lure this demographic...

As for the hour, I'm with crusader...If they're going to use the hour for maintenance issues then I'm all for it. If it's a cost saving measure...Bad Show (how do you like that Baron?).

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"There are a lot of people who were laid off from Disney, many of them Imagineers, that are imprting their work into IOA/US. Just look at the Dueling Dragons; that was a concept from AK that Disney tabled and when they fired the imagineer in charge...look where it wound up(I don't remember all of the details, but I remember reading this somewhere, please feel free to correct me). "***

If this has happened, why hasn't Disney sue'd IOA/US. If the Imagineer, while on Disney's payroll, developed Dragons but Disney decided not to build it, they still own the rights to it.

 

[ohanafamily]

Captain Pirate (I think you deserve a promotion), I agree with what you are saying, and I apologize for ranting a little and being unclear. I was trying to make the point that US has Disney Targetted and is trying to use a similar formula to the Disney of old. They don't have it down yet, but they are actively working on it. They are building up while WDW is making cutbacks in areas that may not really matter, but people notice.

As far as crusader's comment, I would be all for it if it was for a rehab, and a temporary measure; was there a reason given for the Hour delay in opening, I thought it was just a cutback.

KNWVIKING, they didn't take the specs, they took the concept and changed it a little. I also recall hearing that WDW considered a lawsuit, but chose not to; evidently it was just different enough.



Oh, BTW, one more thing. I must Clap for the Tag Fairy...
Clap! Clap! Clap!