I've read the writing on the wall, and its not a great big beautiful tomorrow

[NavyDad]

That's because people can't get FP for what they really want so they just end up reserving whatever they can get. The result is increased wait times accross the board and people actually getting a net loss in what they get to do during the day.

There is zero evidence that the average guest is experiencing a net loss at all...

 

[maryandtyson]

We got back from a somewhat last minute trip last Thursday. Even though we stayed on site, I didn't have enough advance planning time to book FP+ more than 2 weeks out. I got mine train, Peter Pan, Big Thunder, Soarin, test track,Everest- all the headliners I wanted. Didn't try A&E.

Here's the thing: we didn't end up using more than 3 fast passes the whole 6 days we were there.

I was able to book a BOG breakfast which got us on 7DMT first,as in, first train to ride. We also got an 8:00 Tusker House and got on the Safari first thing too. The only FP we used were Peter Pan, TSMM and Everest. We rode mine train in the regular line during a parade (30 minutes), BtMRR stand by three times, Peter Pan standby to see the new queue, Pirates, dumbo, tea party, pooh, TTC, Star Tours and many more.

I'm sorry people are upset by the FP+ changes. For me, I think Disney is trying very hard to manage crowd levels.

 

[Mambo Junkie]

I know the FP+ debate has been beating the dead horse to a bloody pulp. I think the reason for that is because people are so disappointed to lose their favorite vacation experience. All the planning just does not work for me, it is not a vacation that is enjoyable. Yes, I know you don't have to use FP+ but guess what, waiting in line is not an enjoyable vacation either. Even if I bypass the new and popular rides, FP+ has created lines in rides that I used to basically walk on to.

It's hard to give up what used to be our favorite vacation destination. The place that we grew up going to and watched our kids grow up going to but it's just not worth it anymore. So I am doing the only thing I can do-go somewhere else. This year the family vacation will be to Universal. I would consider a trip to DisneyLand as long as FP+ does not ruin that also. It will take something huge to get me back to DisneyWorld. Star Wars Land would do it but at the rate that Disney builds, it will be at least 10 years before that will happen.

So goodbye DisneyWorld. Thanks for the memories and good times. Maybe someday in the future you will become an enjoyable vacation destination for me and my family again.

I think that's it for me. It's not so much hating the system and proclaiming it over and over as it is having to admit that something you loved so much and was a big part of your life is lost to you now. I don't tour like people who love the system and never will. I'm going to try one more time and do it in the way I'm accustomed to, and if my family and I don't have a good time, then we'll just have to give it up. Right now they have more people than ever pouring through their gates so they're not worried about those of us who don't like it. I do wonder what the people who don't realize you have to plan months in advance think when they spend that much money to go to WDW and they can't get ADRs and have to stand in such long lines. I do sometimes wonder if they'll feel the same thing we once did, if they find this normal, if they just can't wait to get back when they get turned away time and again from restaurants or spend 8 hours at MK to do 10 things? Believe it or not, as someone stated before, there are a whole lot of people who have no clue how to plan a successful Disney vacation.

 

[maryandtyson]

No. Just NO.

Space? BTMRR? Sure. 7dmt? You're dreaming

Fireworks? HA! 7dmt and a&e aren't affected by

My personal experience says otherwise. We rode 7DMT during the parade. Posted wait time dropped considerably before the parade. When we got in the queue, it said 30 minutes. Probably more like 20.

 

[3DisneyFanz]

There is zero evidence that the average guest is experiencing a net loss at all...

If your average wait time has gone up 15 min for the rides you don't have fast passes for then you're suffering a net loss. You save on 2 rides (maybe 3 if you don't then use a FP for a parade or show) and then lose out on the other 20 attractions. Not sure how it can be looked at any other way.

 

[kiford]

I guess I just don't see this as a new or FP+ thing really. Having been someone who missed TSM more than once the first couple trips after it opened even with the old system. If I wasn't to the park before 10am the FP were long gone and the waits were well over an hour. Seems like regardless of the system new rides will be popular and have long lines and limited FP. Whether it's limited to 30+ days out or the first couple of hours in the morning someone is still missing out.

We missed out on TSMM three times, even when it was no longer even newISH. Even when we'd try to get to HS at opening (not RD but gates were open), we'd head up there and the lines to get FP were 30 minutes long and the posted available FP for the person at the head of the FP ticket line was late at night. We'd resigned ourselves to never being able to get on it because at any other time the standby line, even at opening, was 90+ minutes long. Our last trip was the first time we were able to get on it using FP+ so I'm a fan of the system.

As others have said, it works for some and not for others. Some people don't like feeling that there's no sponteneity and they have to plan so early and they don't like being forced to do so. I didn't like being forced to go to the parks at RD (not that we ever did - I'm on vacation so I don't do early) in order to experience an attraction and/or just not know until I'm standing there at the FP machine whether it will work in my day or not. So I'm one of the people for whom the system works. But we still enjoyed ourselves and didn't feel cheated before FP+ came into existence (or even before FP existed at all). If I miss out on something, it's not the end of the world to me. I just roll with it, there's lots of other stuff to do, I'm with my sweetheart all day and we'll just plan to come back some time.

They'll never find a system that makes everyone happy. But as long as they feel that there is a preponderence of those who like a system or who will work with it, that's what they'll do. Given that their attendance numbers are up, they obviously feel that it's working. But the one thing that you can count on with Disney is that any system will not remain static; it will change again. Some will like it, some won't.

 

[kiford]

It is true that on site guests have a definite advantage and while I agree with giving on site the perks, I also understand it's frustrating for those not on site. That said, on site stays pay dearly for those perks. They certainly aren't free.

And the concept of giving on-site perks is not a new thing brought in because of FP+ as some people seem to imply. EMH are for on-site guests only and has been in place for several years. I also recall way back when only on-site guests could book dining 24 hours in advance but off site guests could only do it on the day of. I'm sure that there were other perks available for on-site guests over the years; early FP+ selection is merely the newest.

 

[TwoMisfits]

I've said what op said from the beginning. New rides will be off-limits to off-site guests without very long waits (since offsite has to wait for the FP+ reservations and the morning ADRs behind onsite guests). I've made my peace with it. With a family who won't get up in the morning, we now have a new vacation plan of Universal and Sea World/Aquatica Annual and/or Power Passes with a single MK party add on per trip where we are on an even playing field for all rides - the big plus is I save about 2/3 of my normal Disney only ticket prices over 2 trips (thank you Sea World Black Friday sale) by making the annual passes work twice (and I don't pay the ridiculous parking except for the one MK day - double plus). If and when anything big opens at one of the other 3 parks, I may book a single on-site stay to experience it (this would be about 2020 the way Disney is going). And I'm okay with it...heck, for now, my family actually loves this plan b/c they see everything they want every trip...

 

[Jennasis]

Like the OP, I've been going to WDW just about yearly since 1977. I've rolled with all the punches too...lamented the pepto-bismol cake, or the Mickey wand over SSE, the closing of 20K leagues (after bemoaning the massive hot waits for it) and on and on. I don't particularly care for the direction things are heading either, and we DO stay on site (DVC).

WDW will always be my happy place and my go-to spot for vacation, but FP+ doesn't work well for me and my family of 2, and it honestly stresses me out (from planning/booking to use). Disney will get less of my time and money as we will use our DVC as a home base to explore the beach, USO, Tampa and the rest of Orlando. We will ALWAYS love the parks and look forward to going each and every time, but I REFUSE to let my trip be dictated by advance planning FP+...ADR's already do plenty of that. So I have no problem hopping in the car and heading off property when things on property stress me out.

 

[NavyDad]

If your average wait time has gone up 15 min for the rides you don't have fast passes for then you're suffering a net loss. You save on 2 rides (maybe 3 if you don't then use a FP for a parade or show) and then lose out on the other 20 attractions. Not sure how it can be looked at any other way.

That is because you are cherry picking again.

Remember we are talking about the average guest - not you or any of us who post on the DIS

Stand-by wait times have gone up on most rides

Stand-by wait times have gone down on some headliners

More people are using FP by a large margin

More total capacity has been allocated to FP

You cannot just selectively choose to look at the fact that standby waits are up on many rides and disregard the other points mentioned and assume that the average guess is suffering a net loss. Again there is nothing to suggest that.

If more people are using fast pass more often it is likely that the average guest is experiencing a net positive but we just don't have the data to know for sure and may never...

It is also very likely that the average DISer IS experiencing a net loss but we are the EXTREME minority and not at all indicative of the average guest experience...

 

[3DisneyFanz]

That is because you are cherry picking again.

Remember we are talking about the average guest - not you or any of us who post on the DIS

Stand-by wait times have gone up on most rides

Stand-by wait times have gone down on some headliners

More people are using FP by a large margin

More total capacity has been allocated to FP

You cannot just selectively choose to look at the fact that standby waits are up on many rides and disregard the other points mentioned and assume that the average guess is suffering a net loss. Again there is nothing to suggest that.

If more people are using fast pass more often it is likely that the average guest is experiencing a net positive but we just don't have the data to know for sure and may never...

It is also very likely that the average DISer IS experiencing a net loss but we are the EXTREME minority and not at all indicative of the average guest experience...

If wait times are up accross the board it is a negative impact for everyone. No one benefits from increased wait times whether you are a first time guest or a Disney fanatic.

The fact that FP is now available for virtually everything is the reason use is up. How many FP does Fantasmic take up now? How many for Wishes or other items of the sort? That's the reason use is up and it has nothing to do with positive functionality of the FP+ system.

When you've found a way to create wait times for the Great Movie Ride and Journey Into Imagination without retheming them that's not a positive move.

 

[NavyDad]

If wait times are up accross the board it is a negative impact for everyone. No one benefits from increased wait times whether you are a first time guest or a Disney fanatic.

The fact that FP is now available for virtually everything is the reason use is up. How many FP does Fantasmic take up now? How many for Wishes or other items of the sort? That's the reason use is up and it has nothing to do with positive functionality of the FP+ system.

When you've found a way to create wait times for the Great Movie Ride and Journey Into Imagination without retheming them that's not a positive move.

Again you are cherry picking to support your opinion as fact.

There are MANY reasons FP use is up:

More attractions offer FP (as you correctly point out)
Average guest is more educated about FP due to WDW marketing and other smaller factors
More total ride capacity has been covered from STBY capacity to FP capacity (the single largest driving factor in STBY times increasing)

You cannot just cherry pick one of these factors and offer it as relevant proof of your opinion.

You also cannot just equate STBY wait times being up to being a net negative to the average guest. That's not how math works...

 

[Doug M]

If wait times are up accross the board it is a negative impact for everyone. No one benefits from increased wait times whether you are a first time guest or a Disney fanatic.

The fact that FP is now available for virtually everything is the reason use is up. How many FP does Fantasmic take up now? How many for Wishes or other items of the sort? That's the reason use is up and it has nothing to do with positive functionality of the FP+ system.

When you've found a way to create wait times for the Great Movie Ride and Journey Into Imagination without retheming them that's not a positive move.

But if you are 40 minutes quicker at one ride and 15 minutes longer at 2 others, you are ahead. You have no proof it is actually 15 minutes more at all other rides just like i have none it might be 40 faster at others. My own experience last summer was a 60 min posted SB was really 30 or 40 only, i walked on 15 or 20 posted waits frequently, and my FP were 5 min or less.

 

[3DisneyFanz]

But if you are 40 minutes quicker at one ride and 15 minutes longer at 2 others, you are ahead. You have no proof it is actually 15 minutes more at all other rides just like i have none it might be 40 faster at others. My own experience last summer was a 60 min posted SB was really 30 or 40 only, i walked on 15 or 20 posted waits frequently, and my FP were 5 min or less.

If you only want to ride 3 things that's awesome and you're right you do come out ahead and you're most likely at HS. Problem is with each thing you want to ride over those two you start losing time.

As for proof the only thing anyone can go on is the data Disney provides and that includes the wait times. I'm not sure what benefit they have from providing data that supports longer wait times but its always a possibility.

Sure you may find some some rides where the wait time is shorter but there are also instances where it's longer as we experienced in March.

Either way when rides that were walk on now have wait times and you haven't significantly reduced waits at other attractions you haven't created an improvement.

 

[Jennytoon]

If wait times are up accross the board it is a negative impact for everyone. No one benefits from increased wait times whether you are a first time guest or a Disney fanatic.

I feel this is unarguably true.

The fact that FP is now available for virtually everything is the reason use is up. How many FP does Fantasmic take up now? How many for Wishes or other items of the sort? That's the reason use is up and it has nothing to do with positive functionality of the FP+ system.

Mathematically, this cannot be true. Every attraction has a capacity, the number of people it can process in an hour. Pretty much by definition, if a ride has a wait, that means the ride is running at capacity.

Let's call rides A and B headliners, and rides C and D second tier. For purposes of demonstration, rides A & B always had waits. Rides C & D didn't used to have waits, but now they do. Since none of the rides have changed in capacity, there are only two ways for the additional wait to be created in rides C & D:

1. The people in line for rides C & D have moved there from the lines for A & B
2. There are more people in line, total.

FP+ can cause #1, but it can't create an average net negative experience over the whole group except for people who never would have ridden A & B anyway. If you want to say that people who went to the park and only rode second tier rides -- no headliners -- have had their overall wait time increased, then I won't argue with you. I don't think that's your point though.

Now, we have strong evidence that #2 is probably true, because park attendance is up. It seems reasonable to assume that all those extra people are there to ride attractions, not just stand around and people-watch.

We also have some evidence that #1 may be true, because the general report is that the % of ride capacity that is given to FP+ is greater than what was allotted to FP-. What does that mean in real terms? It means that if the ride can process 60 people an hour, then let's say under FP- 10 people per hour came in with FP. So if there were 50 people in the SB line, then the 50th person had a 1 hour wait. Let's say that under FP+ 50 people per hour come in with FP. So under FP+ in the SB line the 10th person has a 1 hour wait. Where are those other 40 people (the differential) that aren't waiting in line for an hour any more? They're using up capacity in the second tier attractions, and if they fill it then there will be a wait.

Those numbers are totally made up, but they are for illustrative purposes only. I used the endpoints for wait calculations, but since this is a continuous dynamic model because the ride is running constantly, that's a reasonable simplification. Since many sites that monitor wait times agree that the waits for headliners are pretty much the same as they used to be, and we know that more ride capacity is converted to FP under FP+ that means that there are fewer people overall in the SB lines for headliners. Since fewer people are riding the headliners using SB, then there are two possibilities for what those people in the differential are doing:

1. Those people are riding only the headliner, but with less of a wait (net positive)
2. They are riding the headliner, plus additional rides, where before they were spending all their time in the line for the headliner (net positive)

So all those people in the differential are net positive. What about the people who aren't in the differential, that is the people who were using FP- before? Well, it's true that they are now experiencing waits in the second tier attractions where they didn't used to be. However, they are only 20% (in the above example) of all of the people who are now using FP. So while they may experience a net loss, over the whole group the expectation for any given individual is a net gain. As has been said again and again, the people who were using FP heavily before are experiencing a net loss because more people are now enjoying the same experience as they are. All those other people are gaining.

 

[NavyDad]

If you only want to ride 3 things that's awesome and you're right you do come out ahead and you're most likely at HS. Problem is with each thing you want to ride over those two you start losing time.

As for proof the only thing anyone can go on is the data Disney provides and that includes the wait times. I'm not sure what benefit they have from providing data that supports longer wait times but its always a possibility.

Sure you may find some some rides where the wait time is shorter but there are also instances where it's longer as we experienced in March.

Either way when rides that were walk on now have wait times and you haven't significantly reduced waits at other attractions you haven't created an improvement.

As Doug was trying to explain to you above STANDBY wait times are up at most attractions (Again some of the headliner STBY wait times like the mountains are actually down). That does not equate to total wait times being up because more people are using FP. If a ride has a certain number of potential rides per day a higher percentage of those rides are now being ridden by people who stood in a FP line which is almost always significantly shorter than a Standby line.

Disney only provides posted wait times to the public as far as I know. They have a definite benefit for inflating those times at certain points to discourage people from getting in line. I'm not sure where Josh gets his data but those are ACTUAL wait times and are usually different.

As far as your argument about multiple rides:

1. You are moving the goal posts again
2. You are likely right that re-riding a specific ride will cause you to lose time. However, I am not sure that the "average" guest is in the business of riding and re-riding the same rides many times over as Disney fanatics are apt to do. I would be interested to see someones thoughts on this....

 

[Doug M]

NavyDad is spot on. Capacities are the same, more people are using FP making lines shorter for their headliner and spending that time in second tier lines where they would have been in line for headliner. Any overall increase in wait times is almost certainly due to more people in park, since capacity is not going up. In fact, in HS is is dropping frequently.

 

[Luckybee]

I looked at Portofino and it's $373 a night in June. Does staying at those hotels include the ticket prices too or just the express access?

Don't forget though that you are talking about a deluxe hotel not a value/moderate. We stayed 1 night at Loew's Portofino in Oct. Just mho but it was a true luxury hotel, and our service was =to any 4S we've stayed at in the past. A further benefit was that it is part of the Amex FH program which is only top hotels in an area with lots of extra benefits. We're hard pressed to find value in the Disney hotels esp when for the same time you're talking about the GF (which is the only hotel D has that even comes close to the Portofino one would have to pay $ 795 per night for June . The poly is $660 and even AKL is $422. So $373 to me sounds like a bargain esp for us when we think it is a better hotel than anything D has to offer. Throw in express passes for free.....were it not for the fact that we have timeshare weeks banked to burn and are staying at Lakeshore Reserve and there is no question where we'd be staying. Now we have to pay for our express passes (which for us are worth every nickel )

 

[3DisneyFanz]

Are you saying capacity is down at HS or attendance or ride capacity is being shifted because there is less there to do? I think this is a really good example to look at since TSMM is the one ride people have always complained about not being able to get a FP to under the old system. We've yet to be able to get one in 3 trips under FP+ but it doesn't really matter because we don't mind waiting since HS is really a 4 attraction park anyway and we're spending the whole day there regardless. That being said you now have to decide if seeing Fantasmic is important enough to you that you'll miss a FP on something else since no FP means a strong likelihood you won't get in to see the show now.

At the same time The Great Movie Ride is creating artificial lines and FP use because people are just taking what they can get when before that was a ride you went to while killing time.

My point was that FP+ use is inflated by including things that were never FP before and by people unable to get what they really want just grabbing something to say they got something. I never knew anyone who missed out on Sooarin or TT to then get a Living with the Land FP- because that was still an option. Most times the lines were so short for that they didn't even give FP and boy those days went the way of the live tour guide.

I will give them credit for one thing that they've gotten out of this system. The push for pre-opening hour dining reservations is greater than ever before as people are making spending money to get in early part of their strategy for accomplishing something they can no longer do because of the FP+ system.

 

[Tarheel girl 1975]

Or could it be that the tables have turned and Disney World is now the beneficiary of substantial increases in attendance at Universal?

You do wonder how many people have planned Universal trips and added on a day or two at MK. There is a big difference in the increase for MK vs other parks. If I'm Disney, I'm wondering why I'm not getting the same increase at my other parks.

But compare the price of a value to Universal hotels. And I prefer the discounts that Disney offers military. We are going next month and are paying an average of $85 a night at Pop and that gives me my FP+. Now add in the discount Disney is gracious enough to give in tickets to the military and the decision is a no brainier for me. I have stayed deluxe at Disney once and probably will not again, because we don't go to be in the hotel. Even with the access granted t Universal hotels, why do I want to pay hundreds a night for a hotel if I am not there to enjoy it? No matter what system Disney uses, someone will be unhappy. And that is why you have the choice to find the destination that best fits your family. Sure, you can be upset about it, but does that accomplish anything?

You would be better off comparing the value resorts to Cabana Bay. They're similar in price, but Cabana Bay has a water slide and lazy river.