FP+... who hates it

[Jennytoon]

"On line surveys" have nothing whatsoever to do with sites like the ones to which I am referring. They are not surveys. The number of users and contributors to such sites is way, way too big not to make them representative of the general population. How could FB not be representative of the entire population? It is the entire population. Almost, any way. For now. Until something else comes along and takes its place.

I respectfully disagree with this statement. In addition to not including people with limited/non-existent access to the internet or insufficient skills, I feel sure I am not the only techno-savvy person with cablemodem connection who has a minimal (or non-existent) presence on FB.

 

[JimmyV]

In addition to not including people with limited/non-existent access to the internet or insufficient skills

Ahhh. But you are missing a key point. When we are talking about reviews of things like FP+, or restaurants in WDW, or, frankly, anything having to do with WDW in general, you don't lose anything when you siphon off people with limited/non-existent access to the internet or insufficient skills. The correlation between WDW guests and people with a FB account is going to be very, very, very high. I'm not suggesting that FB fairly represents Cambodia. But does it fairly represent the population of people who go to WDW? Of course it does.

 

[Jennytoon]

Ahhh. But you are missing a key point. When we are talking about reviews of things like FP+, or restaurants in WDW, or, frankly, anything having to do with WDW in general, you don't lose anything when you siphon off people with limited/non-existent access to the internet or insufficient skills. The correlation between WDW guests and people with a FB account is going to be very, very, very high. I'm not suggesting that FB fairly represents Cambodia. But does it fairly represent the population of people who go to WDW? Of course it does.

I'm sorry, but again I have to disagree. The question is whether people like me, who do not make any significant contribution to FB, or Yelp, or many other sites of this ilk (or in my case, take much away from them either) are outliers, or the minority.

If we are outliers, then we may be safely ignored when drawing conclusions about the general population. But if we are only a minority, then we are simply under-represented in the sample -- which means that that sample cannot be said to represent the general population.

ETA -- and it's worth pointing out that since we don't actually have any statistics at all about what percentage of people with FB accounts actively participate in Liking pages of organizations, or commenting on them, etc., that is the things that are being perceived as a review function ... I'm not even convinced that people like me are the minority.

 

[NavyDad]

"On line surveys" have nothing whatsoever to do with sites like the ones to which I am referring. They are not surveys. The number of users and contributors to such sites is way, way too big not to make them representative of the general population. How could FB not be representative of the entire population? It is the entire population. Almost, any way. For now. Until something else comes along and takes its place.

"TripAdvisor branded sites make up the largest travel community in the world, reaching 315 million unique monthly visitors**, and more than 200 million reviews and opinions covering more than 4.5 million accommodations, restaurants, and attractions. The sites operate in 45 countries worldwide, including China under daodao.com. TripAdvisor also includes TripAdvisor for Business, a dedicated division that provides the tourism industry access to millions of monthly TripAdvisor visitors."

**Source: Google Analytics, average monthly unique users, Q3 2014; does not include traffic to daodao.com

The idea that 315 million unique monthly visitors to a site constitutes a self-selected group gives new meaning to the term.

1. About 40% of the population uses Facebook. They then have to choose to like or follow WDW or a Disney related group, or click on a Disney related story and then choose based on their own desires to take the time to post a comment on a page. That is the absolute textbook example of a self-selection bias.

2. TripAdvisor is a huge worldwide network as you posted. You can find reviews on establishments all over the world. 315 million VISITORS is a huge number but it is still a fraction of the population and I would suspect that the percentage of VISITORS that actually review things is much smaller than 50% (probably less than 10%). TripAdvisor is yet again an absolute textbook case of self-selection and should not be viewed as representative.

3. Even if you had 80% of a population responding (none of the examples we are discussing crack 50%) if that 80% is self-selecting it can skew returns by a significant margin. It is not the sample size but the selection method. For example in election voting (which is actually a form of polling) turnout is so important. If you can skew the electorate even 1-2% one way or the other it will have a hugely significant impact on the result.

IMO the opinions expressed by Disney fans on social media and fan sites is important because as a group we are more concerned with and emotionaly invested in all things Disney.

However to suggest that said group of concerned fans is representative of the population as a whole is absurd.

 

[Alfalfa]

IMO the opinions expressed by Disney fans on social media and fan sites is important because as a group we are more concerned with and emotionaly invested in all things Disney.

However to suggest that said group of concerned fans is representative of the population as a whole is absurd.

Then there is the possibility that said group of concerned fans have long suffered from groupthink and the growing number of complaints from within the ranks is even more suggestive of discontent among the general population.

 

[NavyDad]

Then there is the possibility that said group of concerned fans have long suffered from groupthink and the growing number of complaints from within the ranks is even more suggestive of discontent among the general population.

The first part - yes. I would say Groupthink is probably very ingrained into the group - not sure how that translates to the second part though...

 

[DougEMG]

If you don't mind my asking, what do you do outside of the parks? This last trip we hopped more than usual and spent less time in the parks overall, and I found that I ended up spending just as much if not more money! We ate more resort TS meals, we shopped/enjoyed the lounge at the resort, we played in the arcade. I really wonder if less park time = less money spent for most people. Your ticket is a fixed price whether you spend 3 hours or 12 hours, and the offerings of the WDW resort as a whole mostly have costs associated with them. I guess if everyone is just lounging by the pool they'll spend less, only that didn't work for us since the pool bar is right there, haha

We'll hang out at the resort reading, hang out down by the pool, go for a walk around Epcot (when we're staying at BWV/BCV) or just hop around to the various resorts.

 

[Alfalfa]

The first part - yes. I would say Groupthink is probably very ingrained into the group - not sure how that translates to the second part though...

When dissenting views begin to propagate and survive among the ingroup, it's typically because those views have gained even greater support among the outgroup. If that were the case within the context of this discussion, it would mean the dissenting views actually are representative of the general population and are beginning to influence (or at least be seen among) the ingroup.

Are we on the cusp of that? I'm not suggesting we are, I'm just suggesting it's a possibility because the consistencies between that Boston Globe article and the opinions/experiences we've read here on these boards are amazing.

 

[AriesAriel]

AriesAriel, I don't think your experience contradicts MrInfinity's statement -- in fact, I think it highlights it to some extent. You didn't enjoy staying up to make your FP+ at 60 days out, and since you wanted A&E you probably did have to do that for one of your MK days.

I will agree with much of your post, & I realize that it is my own planning neurosis that is making me worn out but I will say that trying to make ONE pass for ONE child took me 2 hours to figure out. It was NOT intuitive or easy. It just wasn't. And I had already made my week's worth of FP so it wasn't because I hadn't figured that part out. I did. Then I canceled off my son from one FP (which honestly it shouldn't have let me do! They won't let you make a fast pass for a minor by himself, they shouldn't let you leave them out in the wind either!) and I couldn't just add ONE fast pass for him. That's just stupid. There's no reason why someone shouldn't be allowed to make one diddly dang FP!! My sister had a FP - all I wanted to do was move him there.

For what it's worth - I had to cancel all 3 of my sister's fast passes to enter him as part of her group and rebuild her day. That's what took me 2 hours to figure out. I tried all other possibilities (including calling Disney) and could NOT figure any other way. Like I said, if she had something of high priority like A&E at another time of day - then what? Risk that FP? Luckily, she only has 1 boy who didn't want to meet any characters so I could cancel theirs and re-enter her with the same FP selections, just adding my son. But really, logically from a systems perspective (I do understand databases) there simply is no reason why someone can't move from *this* fast pass to *that* fast pass. Or they should be allowed to add one family member without a FP to a group that has one. But easy they did not make it...

 

[Mickey&Mouse]

I will agree with much of your post, & I realize that it is my own planning neurosis that is making me worn out but I will say that trying to make ONE pass for ONE child took me 2 hours to figure out. It was NOT intuitive or easy. It just wasn't. And I had already made my week's worth of FP so it wasn't because I hadn't figured it out. I did. Then I canceled off my son from one FP (which honestly it shouldn't have let me do! They won't let you make a fast pass for a minor, they shouldn't let you leave them out in the wind either!) and I couldn't just add ONE fast pass for him. That's just stupid. There's no reason why someone shouldn't be allowed to make one diddly dang FP!! My sister had a FP - all I wanted to do was move him there.

That's crazy all you had to go through just to switch one FP! I have to admit though, this part had me laughing:

There's no reason why someone shouldn't be allowed to make one diddly dang FP!!

 

[NavyDad]

When dissenting views begin to propagate and survive among the ingroup, it's typically because those views have gained even greater support among the outgroup. If that were the case within the context of this discussion, it would mean the dissenting views actually are representative of the general population and are beginning to influence (or at least be seen among) the ingroup.

Are we on the cusp of that? I'm not suggesting we are, I'm just suggesting it's a possibility because the consistencies between that Boston Globe article and the opinions/experiences we've read here on these boards are amazing.

I don't know - you put me in a mind pretzel with that one. I would need to see some math on that LOL

As for the second part - I read the article a few days ago and I can't imagine what anyone would find "amazing" ???....

A multi-trip visitor who expressed that she did a ton of research and visits this board as well as other planning sites. She obviously decided to take a lot of time planning and indicated that she felt that she needed to plan to make her trip as awesome as possible and that planning as well as the current structure of Fastpass and Reservation system at WDW took away some of the fun but overall her family had a magical time and they will be coming back again?....

All of that seems like a very logical reaction to her circumstances and the sub-groups she would fall into...

 

[goofyernmost]

IMHO, if it didnt matter and were such a small voice, they would have left the posts on FB. The fact that the deleted them says much more

Well, it's a large voice in a small group. As author of the Facebook page, Disney has every right to remove a bunch of negativity the may wrongly affect or influence those that go there to talk about their love of Disney. There is no law that says that they can't like something that others can't seem to resist putting down at every turn. I have negative things that I feel about Disney as well, but, I wouldn't either feel that my opinion is so right that I have to shove it down everyone's throat or interrupt with garbage that is of no consequence and will not influence anything as far as Disney is concerned. That is done directly to the organizations not passive aggressively though a Facebook change.

One of the cardinal rules of Facebook participation, is unfriend those that are only there to rain on your parade. Let them start their own anti-Disney Facebook pages. The sheep will follow them to gripe city. I realize that this is my opinion, but, I feel that it is how that site should be run.

 

[mom2rtk]

Well, it's a large voice in a small group. As author of the Facebook page, Disney has every right to remove a bunch of negativity the may wrongly affect or influence those that go there to talk about their love of Disney. There is no law that says that they can't like something that others can't seem to resist putting down at every turn. I have negative things that I feel about Disney as well, but, I wouldn't either feel that my opinion is so right that I have to shove it down everyone's throat or interrupt with garbage that is of no consequence and will not influence anything as far as Disney is concerned. That is done directly to the organizations not passive aggressively though a Facebook change.

One of the cardinal rules of Facebook participation, is unfriend those that are only there to rain on your parade. Let them start their own anti-Disney Facebook pages. The sheep will follow them to gripe city. I realize that this is my opinion, but, I feel that it is how that site should be run.

Can't argue that Disney has the right to do what it wants with its FB page. But deleting the comments doesn't change the fact that the sentiments exist.

 

[Angel Ariel]

I was watching the Disney Planning DVD today...we ordered it just for fun, and to give DD some in-park videos to see before we take her next time. I found it interesting that in the "MyMagic+" submenu (found in the "Planning" section on the main menu), there was no mention of being able to get a 4th FP+ or beyond. They mention, and show, the in-park kiosks, but the only thing they say about them is that guests can use the in-park kiosks to view and change their MDE plans. I don't know if they mention the 4th and beyond FP+ in any other section of the DVD (as we were mostly watching the DLR stuff on there today and DD ran out of attention span), but I found it curious that there was no mention of it at all on the MM+ specific section where the main focus was on MDE and showing the flexibility of FP+.

 

[SmithSmith]

I will agree with much of your post, & I realize that it is my own planning neurosis that is making me worn out but I will say that trying to make ONE pass for ONE child took me 2 hours to figure out. It was NOT intuitive or easy. It just wasn't. And I had already made my week's worth of FP so it wasn't because I hadn't figured that part out. I did. Then I canceled off my son from one FP (which honestly it shouldn't have let me do! They won't let you make a fast pass for a minor by himself, they shouldn't let you leave them out in the wind either!) and I couldn't just add ONE fast pass for him. That's just stupid. There's no reason why someone shouldn't be allowed to make one diddly dang FP!! My sister had a FP - all I wanted to do was move him there.

For what it's worth - I had to cancel all 3 of my sister's fast passes to enter him as part of her group and rebuild her day. That's what took me 2 hours to figure out. I tried all other possibilities (including calling Disney) and could NOT figure any other way. Like I said, if she had something of high priority like A&E at another time of day - then what? Risk that FP? Luckily, she only has 1 boy who didn't want to meet any characters so I could cancel theirs and re-enter her with the same FP selections, just adding my son. But really, logically from a systems perspective (I do understand databases) there simply is no reason why someone can't move from *this* fast pass to *that* fast pass. Or they should be allowed to add one family member without a FP to a group that has one. But easy they did not make it...

I've been trying to follow you, but I'm a bit lost.

Why couldn't you modify just your son's FP selection? Because he's a minor?

 

[spinandmarty]

I have read most of this thread, I am not real tech savvy so I dont know how to post quotes. several people said they would be much happier if they could make additional fast passes on their phone... Someone else said waiting in line for a kiosk kind of defeats the purpose of spending more money because your standing in line.. Maybe I'm cynical but I think these are tied together. I dont know if they will ever let you make additional fast passes on phone, they have had a year and a half to do this, shouldnt be that hard.. Just my take but you get on your phone and find nothing that you want, may be you will go back to resort and sit by pool, or leave property to find something else to do. Are if you just used your last fp on TOT and walk to the fast pass kiosk and theres a 20 or 30 minute wait, (which I have seen), your wife says you go ahead and get in line, theres a place to get ice cream right over there I will get the kids some ice cream while you are in line.. Kaching!!! Or you finally get to kiosk hey what do you know we can get fast pass for RNR in 3 hours, well I've stood in this line for 30 mins. I'm going to take it. now maybe you are going to stay in park longer than you planned, to kill time you may go into shops, or end up having to get snacks, drinks, or even feed the family... Kaching!!!
Another thing people were talking about was the planning, I work in a school and have personally talked to 3 familys that had no idea what fast pass was 2-3 weeks before their trip, I did explain it to them, kinda late for them though. 2 of those familys say they will never go back third one says they may but will have to do a lot more planning.. Fourth family I didnt talk to till they got back, I asked how fast pass worked for them, she said we were trying to figure it out the first day we went, but never really could get any of the big rides.. Another casual friend of mine knowing I go to Disney a lot asked me what rides would I think his 13 year old daughter would like. I gave my suggestions , then he asked what resort would I suggest.. This was second week of july, their trip was third week of august... they hadnt even booked a resort yet, this isnt a stupid guy, he is the head of IT for a very sucessful company.. My advice was go to the disboards... we that or on the boards just dont realize that some people dont plan and dont have a clue of the planning you have to do....

 

[MrInfinity]

I agree with the first half of this, but I think the last conclusion is a leap. Why do you think that the casual guest who just wants to go to Disney World and who never used FP- is going to appreciate being handed 3 FP+? Are you certain that this person is going to pre-book their FP+s? Isn't it just as likely that they show up without anything booked? And if they try to book when they show up, aren't they either going to get shut our or get options for times that are the least desirable?

Sure. But we still know that only about 10% of guests used FP-, and now many more than that are using FP+. This is why there is less there for the power users. Because more ppl are pulling them. Tons more.

FP+ is just easy, Jimmy. You can't hardly be a person who uses their computer, book a trip online, and *not* be drawn into the "next step" or however Disney nudges the process along. First they direct you to customize your magic bands, then they urge you to pick fast passes. You'd really have to be a non-computer person to not notice it or do it at all.

I'd say only about 50% of ppl are pre-booking FP+'s. But that's about 5x as many as before used FP-. (If you don't like the numbers, suggest your own don't just discount the discussion).

Yes if they just show up and do not use FP+ at all, they will be just as bad off as if they just showed up and did not use FP- at all. This is a large chunk of guests. About 50%, I'd guess. This is a massive number of ppl that never used FP-, won't use FP+, and are none the wiser, nor really care about it. A few rides by standby is fine for them maybe.

We hear all the time that "my style of touring was to show up at DHS in the afternoon and when I did this under FP-, I couldn't get a FP for TSMM.

So?

I have no sympathy for a guest who plans nothing, shows up at the busiest time, and is then put off by not having Disney cater to them having put no thought nor effort into doing better. Are you saying you would prefer this be the case? Everyone who wants to can just go up with no planning and go thru the fastpass line? I'm not sure this makes sense conceptually.

Cconsider the same scenario for a casual guest who doesn't pre-plan. They hop into DHS at 1:00. They go to the kiosk to try to get a FP for TSMM.

No. The casual guest who doesn't preplan should not get any advantage whatsoever over someone who planned. This guest could have booked a FP if they wanted, they could have used FP- back in the day, but if they choose to do neither, that is their choice. I never felt bad about using FP- to go ahead of them, and I don't feel bad about using FP+ to go ahead of them now.

So nothing has changed....for people who do little to no planning. Things change greatly for people who plan.

Of course. But it was always this way. Tho FP- did not involve "planning" it did involve learning the system extensively to get decent use out of it... Plus, vacationing in a rather unintuitive way.

I just don't see the huge upside for non-planners. So I'm not ready to buy into the notion that the casual guest who is fine just going to WDW and who never used FP- is going to see a significant change.

Sure they do. Many more guests that never used FP- ARE using FP+. This is known. It is definitely a huge + for these people.

FP+ works for the new breed of NextGen Commandos and for people who study and plan.

...and for people who never used FP- for anything but now use FP+ to get 3 rides w/o much planning at all.

The idea that FP+ is a panacea for Type B non-planners just isn't materializing. (And I'm not sure it is supposed to. I think one of the major points behind MME and FP+ was to force people to think ahead and plan. And "too bad--so sad" if you don't.)

Panacea? Really? Why on Earth would you liken a ride queuing system to some universal cure. It just gets you on a few rides, fast. Maybe you are expecting it to be a panacea and that's just silly. There are still massive crowds at WDW. This can't be avoided, but FP+ helps.

I was watching the Disney Planning DVD today...we ordered it just for fun, and to give DD some in-park videos to see before we take her next time. I found it interesting that in the "MyMagic+" submenu (found in the "Planning" section on the main menu), there was no mention of being able to get a 4th FP+ or beyond.

Yeah, these videos are pretty useless to someone who's been on the disboards. They are really just marketing material, and not useful "how to beat the crowds" type things. I think they want the advice to be quite vague, and just show enough of the product that it's marketed, not go into specifics. Plus these videos will linger for years and FP+ may change in that time, so there is no reason to put the current specifics in a yearly promotional video that's consistently a year out of date the minute it comes out.

 

[Angel Ariel]

I just do not understand this idea that legacy required a ton of learning to use well. I'd consider 6-8 fps using it well, and there was no crazy amt of.learning required. Put in ticket, get fp...fp says what time to pull another, pull fp at that time...repeat throughout the day. Maybe it is because we were doing full days in the parks...but we easily did at least 6/day in MK. no special strategies, or knowledge...just pulling fp, reading them, and getting another when the paper said we could.

The hyperbole regarding both systems really doesn't help anything at all.

 

[Shaden]

I just do not understand this idea that legacy required a ton of learning to use well. I'd consider 6-8 fps using it well, and there was no crazy amt of.learning required. Put in ticket, get fp...fp says what time to pull another, pull fp at that time...repeat throughout the day. Maybe it is because we were doing full days in the parks...but we easily did at least 6/day in MK. no special strategies, or knowledge...just pulling fp, reading them, and getting another when the paper said we could.

The hyperbole regarding both systems really doesn't help anything at all.

Indeed, we showed up for our Disneymoon, I was not a part of these boards, did no research. We went because we saw an Ad for Free dining in February ... so we jumped on it. Sounded like a great deal. We actually know now that Room discounts work better for us ... lol. But, there we were in WDW ... saw the FP lines, asked a CM what was up, and proceeded to FP our faces off.

 

[MrInfinity]

I just do not understand this idea that legacy required a ton of learning to use well. I'd consider 6-8 fps using it well, and there was no crazy amt of.learning required. Put in ticket, get fp...fp says what time to pull another, pull fp at that time...repeat throughout the day. Maybe it is because we were doing full days in the parks...but we easily did at least 6/day in MK. no special strategies, or knowledge...just pulling fp, reading them, and getting another when the paper said we could.

The hyperbole regarding both systems really doesn't help anything at all.

Hi Ariel,
It was numerically impossible than any more than a tiny % of guests were pulling 6-8 useful FP-'s in a day.

People have covered this before much better than me. But if you show up, and pull a ticket, then legitimately do not pull another until you use your first, and you attempt to do this twice to hot rides like Soarin/TT, you will get 1, maybe 2 tickets in a day. You only get 6-8 if you knew what you were doing. Like. Get to a ride, do *not* ride it. Instead, pull a ticket. Then still don't ride it, but leave, wait 2 hours, and pull another ticket. Now, go back and ride the 1st ride while you wait for your next 2 hr window to open, but before your 2nd ticket was eligible. See where I'm going w this?

Plus... most guests simply did not tour like that. Vacationers would arrive, pick a ride, and go ride it. The concept of pulling a ticket to leave and come back later is not a natural way to think of vacationing. Just think about how much you assert that FP+ is not a natural thing for non-planners to use. I know you get it, and I get it, but there are millions of guests going to WDW who did not use the FP- system. It just did not get noticed, did not get sought out, did not get researched, etc, except by a small % of the guests. Because that % was so small, those that were in that group got a ton of benefit out of it.

More people could have used it, but didn't. Now, more people could use FP+ better, but aren't. This creates advantages in today's environment just like it did in the old days.