Ethics question about DVC point rentals

[maburke]

I agree with a PP that the fundamental problem here was a lack of clear communication. I agree that the owner was being very accommodating to work with a waitlist, but why did the renter not know the terms of payment until after the reservation was partly made, partly paid, and waitlist came through? I (in either role) would have wanted to agree on the contract FIRST, then start the process of securing the reservation. These contracts might be difficult to enforce, but at least it's harder to have a miscommunication of the terms when it's all spelled out. Any renegotiation of the terms then would have happened before the owner put in much effort or risk, and they could have a agreed or not done business then.

By the way, OP, to answer some of your original questions, you are allowed to feel anything you want. But unfortunately, if you don't have an agreement at that point, the owner is allowed to take the action that they did. Not something I'd do, though; I agree with BestDadEver & I would have allowed the deal to continue on the original (verbal, at least?) terms. And I would never feel insulted that someone doesn't trust me -- the trust in this process needs to be earned.

 

[DisneyNutMary]

I am going against opinion here and sympathizing with the OP.
The owner may have, and probably did panic about getting stiffed out of final payment. However, as a responsible renter, she should have laid out her terms of rental before going into the reservation process. The deal got as far as a down payment without a contract in place, I would never open myself up to that- the contract protects both the owner and the client.
To rent without a broker seems appealing because you can get a better profit off your points, but with the extra profit comes a need to handle transactions professionally and with good business practices- always spell out your terms before exchanging information and accepting down payment.

This is exactly the reason I use a broker to rent out my points. He handles the terms, the contracts and looks out for my interests

 

[Dean]

First, thanks to everyone who is posting their answers here.

Now on to some of the details. There were no contract terms spelled out up front. She just kept putting that off until we understood what days would actually be available.

If I demanded a change, I can see her backing out, but I never demanded anything. I merely asked if we could hold off on the last part of the payment.

If it were me, I would respond by first trying to explain how the DVC cancellation policy puts the point owner in a bind. Most renters will never understand the complexities of the system.

Then I would make clear that if I didn't receive the full payment by a certain time, I would cancel the reservation. At least give the person a chance to understand they made a misstep.

My feeling is that by cashing my check and accepting the partial payment, she was no longer entitled to act as if the reservation was all hers to do with as she pleased.

The owners renting out their points should try to remember this power imbalance. If the owner can always cancel a reservation up to the last minute, it takes much more trust on the side of the renter who puts up all of the money up front. Once the owner gets the money, they're not extending trust.

A partial payment does not obligate the owner. None of us are privy to the actual details so it's hard to say but I can see the owner reacting this way as the request was unreasonable IMO. Likely better would have been a contact to explain and request full payment or a cancelation and if they were up against any deadline, they could have explained that. Personally I would have spelled out terms but would not have wait listed without a formal agreement and some type of payment.

 

[tjkraz]

She sent an email contract that asked for all of the money now. I sent half and asked-- in a way that I thought was polite-- whether she would take half ow what was due now and half within 30 days of arrival.

I didn't say I wouldn't pay, I just pointed out that many other sample contracts had payment schedules and then asked whether she would consider that.

The owners renting out their points should try to remember this power imbalance. If the owner can always cancel a reservation up to the last minute, it takes much more trust on the side of the renter who puts up all of the money up front. Once the owner gets the money, they're not extending trust.

Here's my takeaway from the passages above: You insulted her. Perhaps deeply.

From her POV, she worked with you to make the special arrangements, use the waitlist, set aside the points for you rather than looking for another buyer. Then when it came time to collect payment for her efforts, the response she got was partial payment and a letter explaining why you didn't believe her terms were fair.

You questioned her integrity. She had no intention of defrauding you (as evidenced by the fact that she sent your money back), and yet your message was "I don't really trust you so I'm not comfortable paying everything at once."

Don't know that I would have responded in such an abrupt manner but then I wasn't the one who bent over backward to secure the desired accommodations. And I'm not privy to all of the back-and-forth communications.

In a very short time you went from "I'm deathly afraid she will steal my money" to "I can't believe she won't take my money." I'm sympathetic over the lost trip but I think you sort of dug your own grave here. It could have been avoided...should have been avoided. Live and learn.

 

[Deb & Bill]

If you want payment terms like you get with Disney, you need to book directly with Disney. Disney will cancel your reservation, too, if you don't make your payment in time.

I agree with Tim about how you insulted the member. She worked very hard to get the missing nights you wanted - six weeks she worked to get those - and you don't pay in full. You want to set your own payment terms and you turn needy. She's not a travel agent. Maybe she had plans for the money you owed her. Now her plans go up in smoke because you want to change the game.

At that point, I would have blown you off, too.

* The coldness of some of the members worries me and suggests that I shouldn't try renting again in the future. While I think it's okay to be abrupt with people at the beginning of a transaction, I think it's wrong to cut off someone after much of the deal is complete.

If you think this member and the others responding to this thread are cold, then you need to skip point rentals. Your deal was far from complete. You stiffed her. While you look at these members as cold, we look at you as someone who just doesn't get it. You need to do your homework before you attempt this again.

 

[ScottOKW2K]

About two months ago, I started working with a nice woman on securing a five nights around MLK day in January. Some of the days were easy to find, but some weren't. She put us on the waiting list and I paid for the first days with a check.

After about 6 weeks, we finally got the rest of the days secured. She sent an email contract that asked for all of the money now. I sent half and asked-- in a way that I thought was polite-- whether she would take half ow what was due now and half within 30 days of arrival.

If I was the renter I might have done the same. The renter obviously went to a lot of effort to secure the reservation you desired. She provided you a reservation over a holiday weekend and started trying to acquire the room at 5 months out - not an easy task. She works for six weeks to get your desired reservation and then when she asks for payment - you balk at the payment she requested. As a renter this would probably have given me a bad "vibe" - and my gut feeling would have to be cut my losses on this.

Whoom. She sent back all of the money and cancelled the reservation. She didn't bother to counter with a request for all of the money now. She just sent a note saying that she felt insulted that I wasn't trusting her. She had never scammed anyone.

This wouldn't be a problem if everything unfolded within a few days, but now it's impossible for me to get the same reservation. The resorts my kids wanted are all booked.

I feel like once she cashed my first check, the reservation was, in part, mine.

I doesn't matter what you feel. As others have stated the reservation is always the members, and ultimately the owner is still responsible.

She didn't have the right to cancel it without at least checking with me or giving me some kind of warning or trying to negotiate. She knew it was the first time I was renting DVC points and yet she acted as if she could trash the reservation without consulting me.

Here are my questions for the group:

* Am I allowed to feel wronged, in some small way?

Sure, go ahead. It won't change the situation. The renter was providing a hard to get reservation at a significant cost savings to you. When she provided her payment terms, you balked.

* While the system gives the renters complete power over the reservation, are they obliged to contact the customer before changing the reservation?

Both you and the renter should have communicated better and earlier in this process. Yes, we have complete power over the reservation, but we have complete responsibility too.

* Does acceptance of a partial payment make a difference? Does it show my good will? Does it make it worse for her to change the reservation?

No, not really. Renting DVC points is all a matter of trust. You didn't trust her.

* Is there some standard contract or ethical boilerplate tool that should make this clearer for everyone from the beginning?

Check the rental board.

 

[bobbiwoz]

OPI would feel stunned if it happened to me. You asked a question and lost your reservation. Most people here agree with the member, I don't.

Best wishes.

Bobbi

 

[DebbieB]

Asking for a payment schedule might be reasonable but asking to pay the balance at 30 days is not. At 30 days, if you don't pay, the member is stuck with points in holding status. I was with you when you said you just asked a question but when you started talking about sample contracts having payment schedules, you lost me. It went from asking a simple question to trying to negotiate better terms.

 

[lilpooh108]

Asking for a payment schedule might be reasonable but asking to pay the balance at 30 days is not. At 30 days, if you don't pay, the member is stuck with points in holding status. I was with you when you said you just asked a question but when you started talking about sample contracts having payment schedules, you lost me. It went from asking a simple question to trying to negotiate better terms.

I agree with this. If you had emailed her and agreed on the schedule ahead of time, then this would be a different situation.

I think sending half the payment after she secured the entire reservation and offering to pay when she was heading into the penalty phase is unfair.

It's sad that you lost your reservation, but even David's rental service has more stringent requirements than what you were proposing.

 

[ScottOKW2K]

This wouldn't be a problem if everything unfolded within a few days, but now it's impossible for me to get the same reservation. The resorts my kids wanted are all booked.

Here are some ideas to handle the situation now. Find other resorts that would be acceptable to you and your family and book it if their is availability. You will then have something in place. I would then continue looking for availability at the resort(s) that you desire. If you are booking through Disney people that cancel or modify their reservations have to do so no less than 45 days out from check-in for package reservations and no less than 5 days out for room only reservations. Because of this resorts that show no availability now may have some later.

This can happen on the DVC side too. Your choices may be limited and it may not be the resort you want. I went through this recently - I needed to make a reservation during Food & Wine with less than 2 weeks notice. My wife and I returned last night from a wonderful 5 night stay - one night in a BLT studio and 4 nights in a SSR 1 bedroom.

I wish you luck .

 

[DisneyNutMary]

I'd like to interject as devil's advocate for the OP again. We are all owners, we know the rules about banking, borrowing, canceling, holding accounts, use years, etc. we should not assume the OP knows the same.
Though the OP may have been asking too much of the owner, as a responsible salesperson, the owner should have explained her point of view before canceling and returning her down payment at a point in time where it ruins the OPs chance of securing a similar reservation elsewhere.
A points rental agreement is a risk for both sides. The OP took the chance of potentially paying a vacation in full without being completely certain that when she arrives at check-in there will even be a reservation in her name. Who knows if an owner will ever change their mind at the last minute and put the points into holding for her own personal use.
To put the owner 100% in the right, without giving the OP the benefit of the doubt as to the risk she is taking may forever scare her off from renting points, and may scare off other potential renters- as they may see it as only the renter taking a risk in these contracts.
We all want to make profit on our points, and to do so we must acknowledge a certain level of risk I every deal and take early steps to lessen the risk. The owner in this case took a risk without a contract, then panicked and wound up screwing herself out of a profit and the OP out of an anticipated vacation

 

[maburke]

OPI would feel stunned if it happened to me. You asked a question and lost your reservation. Most people here agree with the member, I don't.

Best wishes.

Bobbi

I agree that it was certainly stunning for the OP. That made me think, though, why would the owner take that action? After the effort she put in, and the six weeks closer to the points expiring, knowing how little inventory there was, canceling was really against the owner's best interest. Assuming she did not act impulsively out of hurt feelings, I think the most likely explanation is that she was just spooked. If you look at all the advice given to renters, it says, "if the deal doesn't seem right, walk away." Well, that's probably how this owner felt. And as has been explained here, the renter is risking all the monies paid, but there's really no limit to what the owner is risking, considering possible damage to the unit or unpaid bills. So this owner maybe felt that, "something's not right about this rental," and walked away, despite her lost effort and value of her points.

 

[Dean]

I agree that it was certainly stunning for the OP. That made me think, though, why would the owner take that action? After the effort she put in, and the six weeks closer to the points expiring, knowing how little inventory there was, canceling was really against the owner's best interest. Assuming she did not act impulsively out of hurt feelings, I think the most likely explanation is that she was just spooked. If you look at all the advice given to renters, it says, "if the deal doesn't seem right, walk away." Well, that's probably how this owner felt. And as has been explained here, the renter is risking all the monies paid, but there's really no limit to what the owner is risking, considering possible damage to the unit or unpaid bills. So this owner maybe felt that, "something's not right about this rental," and walked away, despite her lost effort and value of her points.

That's why I said we may not have all the info. It could be how things were said or interpreted, not necessarily what was said.

 

[starry_solo]

There are 3 sides to all stories. Renter's side, rentee's side, and the truth.

BTW, I don't own any DVC resort but have rented from 4 different owners. I respond to DVC owners' "points for rent" threads here and another board. Price per point, when to pay (1/2 due when reservation is made/confirmation received, balance due X days out), method of payment (PayPal, personal check, etc.) are typically set forth within the first thread that the renter posts.

 

[Lynne M]

OP, just a little bit more on the owner's perspective.

Like some others, I'm not really sure why your member cancelled so abruptly, especially since she may have put her points at risk by doing so. And we're never really going to know, she may have just been having a bad day, or what she perceived as your reluctance to pay after she'd been trying to put your reservation together for months just made her lose her temper.

You may feel that some of the responses were cold, but we're all looking at this from the owner's point of view. We can't help but do that; it's not coldness, it's realism, and in some cases, colored by our own less-than-pleasant experiences with renters.

Trying to figure out who's to blame is kind of pointless at this stage, so the best I can offer is suggestions on how to have a more successful renting experience next time.

1. First and most importantly, make sure that you're very clear on the owner's terms before any reservations are made, and before you send any money. Contracts for these sorts of rentals are pretty worthless legally, but they do serve the purpose of laying out the terms of the deal so that everyone understands what's expected.

2. There's no 'standard' rental agreement, and there's no system. It's entirely up to you and the owner to arrive at terms that are acceptable to both of you. The owner is in the driver's seat, obviously, since they control the reservation. If you don't like the terms being offered, you'll want to find another owner. if you want to make special arrangements like having a payment plan, you need to state that up front. No owner is going to react well when a renter suddenly asks if they can defer payment, months into the deal.

3. Even if you've paid in full and have a reservation confirmation in hand, you don't own the reservation. It's not 'yours', until you're standing at the check-in desk. The owner maintains full control of the reservation until you arrive and check in. That's not me just sayin' that, that's DVC policy. So, while you can debate whether canceling your reservation was a nice thing to do, the owner was 100% within their rights to do it.

 

[DMKEDM]

A word here on communication: like most other posters, my sympathies are w/the owner...not getting full payment, as expected, after substantially more effort than "usual," would have spooked me, too. I might well have called (or emailed) "the minute" I got the request for delay in payment, but if I didn't get an essentially "instant" response, I likely would have canceled and started over, too...especially since if it was a hard-to-get reservation, chances are good she had no trouble re-renting the completed reservation.

But the important thing here, I think, is to look at your communication (and your owner's). Email is tricky stuff. It's VERY easy to misunderstand the emotion in a communication. You say you thought you were polite. Maybe she didn't read it that way. Maybe she viewed your communication as a "demand." That language about "other contracts having payment schedules" would have scared me off, too..."other contracts" don't have thing number one to do with THIS transaction, ESPECIALLY after (from her point of view) she'd been extraordinarily nice (not charging you til waitlists came through, actually being willing to use waitlists, etc.)

Another thought: delays are "death"--I don't know if she tried to contact you and couldn't get in touch with you quickly, or if she'd had that experience during the lead-up to the finalization of your arrangement. But if you were at all hard to get in touch with (justifiably or not), that could have added greatly to her decision to just cancel. Don't forget: it doesn't matter at all if you were at work, or busy w/a family situation, or whatever your reason--IF you hadn't responded to her essentially "instantly" that would have been a very big, very red flag...of course I don't know that this happened (and I'm not "accusing" you of it)...just pointing out that "innocent" delays in responding could easily have contributed to this problem.

Anyway, I'm not one to "negotiate to the last nickel." And I wouldn't want to deal with someone who tries to negotiate me down to the best possible deal for her/him. Of course, lots of people do see these kinds of negotiations as perfectly acceptable/normal--even good. But I don't want to be nickel-and-dimed, or detailed-to-the-nth degree. I'm doing something very nice when I (not very often) rent my points. I'm more than willing to help (a nice request that acknowledges the effort it will "cost" me goes a long way). I'm not willing to feel like someone's trying to get "just a little more" out of me, especially that late in the process.

I do hope this is a "learning experience" (for both you and your owner)...it does seem to me that more attention to the "how" of your communication (on both sides) might have prevented this sad result. But it's done now. All you can do is apply the lessons of this situation to any future situation you may consider getting involved in.

Good luck whatever you decide to do in the future.

 

[rusafee1183]

She didn't bother to counter with a request for all of the money now.

I am sorry that your reservation was cancelled and that the Renter was not clear up front about the terms of your payments, but I do hope that you understand the position that you put the member in and why they did what they did. I don't agree with the way that they DID it, but I understand why they did.

And as far as the above statement goes, I don't know if the wording you used is what you meant - but they should not have to 'counter' you with anything. Common courtesy would have been for them to send you a follow up email before cancelling, but they own the points/membership/reservation and this is not a negotiation, especially at that point in time.

They want certain terms, and if you want to rent with them - then you agree to them and follow through on your end. But, again - those should have been laid out well before they were.

I am sorry you are dealing with this, and my advice is that the next time you want to rent - make sure that the terms are spelled out before you make it this far.

Good luck

 

[CRobin]

Email is tricky stuff. It's VERY easy to misunderstand the emotion in a communication.

This is exactly my thinking as I read all of the posts in this thread. Email can often be very misunderstood. I have seen too many instances where a phone call would have circumvented a miscommunication via email. Of course, some people are reluctant to share phone numbers, but that has always been a requirement of mine when I rent out points.

Sent from my iPad using DISBoards

 

[lisaviolet]

OPI would feel stunned if it happened to me. You asked a question and lost your reservation. Most people here agree with the member, I don't.

Best wishes.

Bobbi

But Bobbi - the OP didn't email or phone and ask the question first, correct?

If I'm following correctly they sent half payment with the question. I don't know but I find that *off* and quite frankly slightly manipulative. And remember after the owner spent time trying to secure the missing days.

Also, I suspect - and forgive me if I'm absolutely incorrect - that the payment right away of the original days led to the thought that as soon as the owner secured the rest that payment would be needed - that miscommunication. But in fairness to the OP's position - that should have been clearly negotiated/stated from day one.

OP - I smiled at your thought of owners being cold here. My heart is massive. But in this situation I would be 100% *cold* in your opinion. To me it's called having boundaries.

 

[phi2012]

I am neither a renter or rentee (yet), but I plan on renting very soon, and I started reading this tread as I found it interesting to hear all the differing opinions.

I am sorry for the OP as I couldn't imagine losing a booking so close to going and not being able to get another reservation. That being said it is helpful to me as someone looking to rent to learn how much a renter can lose out and that they are as wary as we, the rentee's are. Banking points etc is often unknow to us the rentee unless we have been told about it (which I now have been, so am actually in a better position than before).

This post has actually made me more confident about renting points as I now understand that I am having to be trusted too.

For the OP I hope you manage to get another booking for your time and that it hasn't scared you off renting points in the future, just maybe go with someone who is happy to take a payment closer to the date of travel and gives you a clear contract before booking the points. Good Luck