Would you consider this cheating??

[Diegosmom]

My mom always checked over all our homework the night before. Not sure if she would correct us if we were wrong (dont remember that part) but she would always make sure that we had done all of it. Maybe having him keep an assignment book and showing you that he had completed everything every night might help.

Also I was a permanent sub for a few months (years ago) and the classroom rule was you talk once -10 you talk twice 0. and all the kids knew this. So your sons class might have a similar rule.

 

[mhsjax]

I agree...but the point I was trying to make was that leaving the problem completely blank doesn't demonstrate that you made any attempt at all to solve it. Working even a small part of the problem, or pulling specific facts out and writing them down at least shows the teacher that you made some effort. Even writing down a few statements like "I read the problem but don't understand how to get started on the solution - I could use some extra help" is enough to demonstrate to the teacher that a student tried.

Its leaving a problem totally blank that is the reason a student gets a zero. A student must demonstrate that they did something - anything - in an effort to solve the problem or answer the question.

That's the middle ground. Its teaching the student that its OK if they don't understand the question, but they have to give a written indication that an effort to do the work was made, not that they just skipped over it and left it blank.

I agree, they should attempt. But I am just not willing to accept a zero if just one or 2 problems out of say 25 or 30 problems where left blank. If you are going to do this, then go to actual grades, like a test. then you get credit for the ones you actually did complete.

 

[marmalade]

I agree, they should attempt. But I am just not willing to accept a zero if just one or 2 problems out of say 25 or 30 problems where left blank. If you are going to do this, then go to actual grades, like a test. then you get credit for the ones you actually did complete.

That's the whole thing, it is homework and not a test. Homework needs to be done to prepare the child for the test and if they are not even making an attemt at the homework, how are they going to do on the test.

It's been a long time since I was in school, but when it comes to math homework I am pretty sure all probems have numbers or equations involved. If the child really doesn't understand how to do the problem he/she can at least write out the numbers and make an attempt.

 

[mhsjax]

That's the whole thing, it is homework and not a test. Homework needs to be done to prepare the child for the test and if they are not even making an attemt at the homework, how are they going to do on the test.

It's been a long time since I was in school, but when it comes to math homework I am pretty sure all probems have numbers or equations involved. If the child really doesn't understand how to do the problem he/she can at least write out the numbers and make an attempt.

O, maybe that is where we differ. IMHO, that doesn't equal an attempt. And yes I do agree with that. I guess we just had different definitions of attempt.

I still hate 0's. they can really bring down a grade, depending on how your school uses them for averaging.

Again, this whole thread is about cheating and no it isn't cheating, like you said this is homework, a zero should not have been given. A zero means no work was done. YOu can use grades and just not weight them as a test and still the child gets credit for the work he has done. It is so easy for the teacher to slap a zero on the paper. AGain, glad my school doesn't work this way.

 

[marmalade]

O, maybe that is where we differ. IMHO, that doesn't equal an attempt. And yes I do agree with that. I guess we just had different definitions of attempt.

I still hate 0's. they can really bring down a grade, depending on how your school uses them for averaging.

I don't really feel it's a real attempt either, but sometimes just writing down the numbers gets the brain thinking about the problem and maybe the student may know more than what they thought.

You're right, 25-30 problemsis a lot and most kids will not know all the answers, but they all can at least try. Plus take what I say with a grain of salt, my kids are in K and Pre-K so I may change my stance in a few years.

 

[jodifla]

First of all, I have to start by saying that this has been a crappy week as far as school goes for both of my boys.

My youngest (6th grade) brought home his IPR (mid-quarter grades) yesterday. He has a C- in reading. He is an A/B student, so of course, I was concerned. The rest of his grades were pretty good...B- in math...eh. Could be better.

So, I went on to our Parent Portal system, to try to get a better idea of why he's doing do poorly in reading. He got a 10% on one assignment, but he couldn't tell me why! At that point, I decided I was going to email the teacher.

I scrolled down to check the rest of the grades, and I noticed that his math grade dropped to a C-. In one week! One of the homework assignments showed as a 0. I asked my DS if he did his homework. He said yes. Then, he started to cry. Seems that he did his homework, but he didn't understand a couple of the problems so he left them blank. They were going over the problems in class, and he leaned to his neighbor to ask him for help...as in, explain this to me. Teacher looked up from her desk, said "Absolutely not", took DS's paper, and gave him a 0. DS didn't defend himself, he just took the 0.

While I understand that he should have asked his teacher for help, and not his neighbor, I'm really wrestling with the fact that she treated this as cheating and gave him a 0. He does not have a history of cheating. He wasn't copying off his neighbors paper (or so he says...). He was just asking for help.

I'm not really sure what to do. I sent an email asking for more clarity, and asking if he is having any other problems (behavior included) in school. It would be completely out of character for him...he has always been very well behaved, one of those model students that teachers really like. But, we've had some stuff going on at home lately, and maybe the stress of that is catching up with him??

Worried sick over this!

No, it wasn't cheating. Teacher COMPLETELY overreacted.

Not sure why you are "worried sick" over this though.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

I wouldn't consider it cheating, and don't think the teacher would either. At our school cheating warrants much more than a zero on an assignment -- it would lead to a conference with an adminstrastor, a call home, possibly suspension . . . .

I would imagine that she took the assignment and gave him a zero because it wasn't done before class. Finishing homework in class is enough grounds for a zero in my opinion.

Did she actually say he was cheating?

 

[mhsjax]

I don't really feel it's a real attempt either, but sometimes just writing down the numbers gets the brain thinking about the problem and maybe the student may know more than what they thought.

You're right, 25-30 problemsis a lot and most kids will not know all the answers, but they all can at least try. Plus take what I say with a grain of salt, my kids are in K and Pre-K so I may change my stance in a few years.

Well hold onto your hat. lol And yep maybe that is the difference. Wait until you see how they teach math these days. I always thought my mom was nuts or maybe not as smart as she should have been, because when I had a question about math, she would look at it and say I don't understand how they are teaching math these days I thought she was nuts. Well guess what, I have no clue as to how they are teaching math these days. especially in elementary school. For an example, my are teaching my sons 4th grade class how to convert fractions to percentages, yet they really don't teach division until 5th grade. They know how to divide 36 by 6 but not real long division, like these fractions required. That makes for an interesting homework session. We worked on it with him for an hour, he was in tears, my DH was mad, (math major by the way) we ended up e-mailing the teacher. She is WONDERFUL. and said yep it is crazy and sort of gave DH a brief lesson on how they do it, and asked if we would be willing to bring in DS early so she could help him. She also said that he is so good in math and that if he didn't understand something he got really mad at himself and would just shut down, Yep she has him pegged.

Long story short, he went in, she gave him a quick lesson, he at a 100% on his test. But he couldn't do the homework, and no attempt could be made on his part, he was that confused. He didn't have time to complete that homework, but because of the situation she didn't give a zero. She just overlooked that one.

 

[tink20]

I would think a 0 in homework would not hurt his grade that much, at DD's school, homework is worth less of the final grade than say a test. If, I was your son I would just go explain to the teacher what happened, if he has been a good student thus far, she will work with him. Teachers know which students are really trying.

DD had a similar situation last year. A girl was looking at her test, so both test had similar ansrews and mistakes. The teacher gave both 0s and wrote some comment about their ansrews being similar. DD was very upset when she came home, she said she wasn't cheating, that the other girl kept looking over. I told DD, to go to the teacher and explain, her side, and tell her she will take the 0 , but she just wanted the teacher to know she wasn't a cheater. Anyways, she came forward the other girl did not, so the teacher changed DD paper and not the other girls. I told DD to guard her paper better next time.

Good Luck, and if he has to keep the 0, its not the end of the world, he can bring his grade back up.

 

[ols386]

I wouldn't worry too much about it, op. But I would try to make sure that whatever it was he did not understand on the test, that you or the teacher, or whoever, review it with him so that he can understand.

I think the teacher over-reacted a bit. I would think that after class she might ask your son to come to her desk and speak to him briefly about the situation. Although, at this point in time, I doubt that he will do that again.

 

[nmmom95]

If homework is graded, it is considered cheating. To be honest, I would be angry at my son for not coming to me or DH for help if he couldn't finish his homework. Trying to fill in answers in class is unacceptable.

 

[melissapealo]

I agree with the teacher on this one. Whether he was asking the friend for help or copying the answer doesn't really matter. The teacher doesn't know what he was doing and she was in the middle of teaching. Talking to his friend for any reason was disrespectful to her. Since they were going over it he should have asked her to help explain more and not the friend. My youngest son is in 5th grade and there are times he doesn't understand his math homework. He attempts to do it at home and then I send a note or email to his teacher letting him know that ds is not understanding the concept. I also check homework nightly to be sure its completed and also it helps me follow along on where his strengths and weaknesses are so things can be worked on.

Edited: Just thought of something else. Why did your ds wait for his grades to come out to tell you about the situation? It's possible he was asking for the answer and trying to hide that from you.

 

[LIDisneyFan]

I still don't understand why homework is graded. I thought the purpose was practice and providing feedback about how much you know and how much you didn't pick up yet.

 

[mhsjax]

I still don't understand why homework is graded. I thought the purpose was practice and providing feedback about how much you know and how much you didn't pick up yet.

YOu would think.

 

[happygirl]

YOu would think.

I have never not had homework not graded. It to used to show the teacher where you are at in your studies. Test aren't a always a good way to judge how well a student is learning.

 

[Magpie]

I would just consider it a harsh, but necessary, life lesson.

No - asking for help on homework is not cheating. But! Talking and whispering during class, working on homework that supposed to be completed before class... these ARE wrong, and happen to be something most teachers find intensely irritating.

Your son ticked the teacher off. He got a zero. Next time, when he can't complete a homework problem, he'll know to actually pick up the phone that evening and call his friend. Don't leave it to the next day.

And don't talk in class, while the teacher's trying to take up the problems! You're supposed to be paying attention, not trying to finish up what you didn't complete last night.

Me, I'd just make sure my son understood the lesson he was supposed to learn here, and then I'd let it go.

 

[mhsjax]

I have never not had homework not graded. It to used to show the teacher where you are at in your studies. Test aren't a always a good way to judge how well a student is learning.

Our teachers always checked to see if you did it and you got an overall score that had to do with how much of the assigned homework over the nine weeks you completed. That grade was averaged in, but you didn't get an actual, A,B,C,D,orF on it.

Grading homework isn't a good way to determine grades either. A child may struggle for a long time with a concept but then something clicks, now if all the homework is given bad grades because of this, it will take a lot of good test grades to bring it up, unless the homework isn't heavily weighted. AS you said, tests aren't a good way to tell if a student is learning, but wrong homework in the beginning isn't a good way to reward the student for actually doing the homework and really learning it.

 

[marcyinPA]

Thanks for the input. I did hear back from both of his teachers. His math teacher did refer to "the incident" as cheating. She also said she knows it is out of character for him.

My son maintains that he was asking for explanation from his friend on how to do the problem, not copying the answers down. If what he says is true...well....it doesn't matter much, because he should have just asked his teacher. He has learned a lesson.

He didn't tell me about it...and he should have. It happened two days ago. Like I said at the bottom of my post, we've had some junk going on at home, and I think he didn't tell me to spare me. He really is that kind of kid. I've been dealing with my older DS's issues, and younger one doesn't want to add more frustration. BUT, yes, he should have told me about it.

In answer to someone else...I'm worried sick, because I just can't deal with anything else right now. Too much going on. Nobody wants their kid to be known as a cheater. And nobody likes when their A student is bringing home C's and F's. I know it's not the end of the world, but it does affect me and unfortunately, I see it as a reflection on me. It's how I roll.

I actually am feeling better today after the email from the teachers. My DS has asked to change his seat, and has acknowledged that there are a few kids that he just can't sit near (gets a little too silly). He asked for extra credit today, and he apologized to his teachers (unprompted by me).

Thank you all!

 

[luvsJack]

I think that the teacher over reacted and I do not think it is cheating.

He did not understand the problem. He was not asking for an answer, he was asking for help in understanding (I am going with the assumption that he is being truthfull) which is HOW YOU LEARN!

I don't understand the teacher having an issue with it. Many of our teachers allow the students time to work on homework at the end of the class period and let them work together. It is quite helpful especially in math. Sometimes another student can explain it in a different way than the teacher which can be helpful.

He sounds like a great kid, and I wouldn't worry about it a bit.

 

[MrsPete]

First, don't be "worried sick" over a sixth grade homework assignment.

Second, yes, it is cheating:

- If your son had questions and needed help from a classmate, he shouldn't have waited 'til the teacher was going over the homework. That clearly makes him look guilty, and it's not appropriate for him to talk at that time. If the teacher allows this today, she'll have ten similar little conversations going on next time she goes over math homework.

- I know you don't want to hear this, but ALL students who are caught in this situation are "asking for help from a classmate". Just as ALL who are caught texting in class suddenly remembered that their phone was turned on and were trying to turn it off. It's such a common excuse that the teacher isn't going to believe it -- even if it happens to be true.

The best thing you can do is to explain to your son that he should've handled it differently, and then let it go. He already has his punishment: His grade will take a knock. But it's sixth grade, and it's only a homework assignment. In the grand scheme of things, it won't hurt him. But he can learn a lesson from it, and he can do better next time.