Would Walts Disney release a film like this???

[KNWVIKING]

***"....you can't really put a Kill Bill or Bad Santa attraction into WDW....can you?"***

No, but maybe they can sell the movie/ride rights to Universal.

 

[Peter Pirate]

'Nala Does Pride Rock'...??? Nah. Porn is a giant leap or oversimplification in this argument. As Erik said the ramifications of this wouldn't be the same as for Kill Bill.

But I will throw this out, I'm not so sure I wouldn't support a Disney Casino in Las Vegas. Adult entertainment for adult disneylovers...Big profits...HBK asked where the line is drawn and I'll answer honestly...I don't know. So guys, tell me why Disney shouldn't (or should) build a Strip Casino in Vegas??? What would be fundementally wrong with another profit center, away from the family action???

 

[Killer Fish]

Ok stop with the porn. Disney is not making porn they are making movies that appeal to a demographic. They are not going to make porn so it is not an issue. They are making diffenent movies to appeal to different audiences. Miramax released the Others and it was scary I didn't hear anyone complaining then. That movie could give kids nightmares. I understand the synergy aspect but I don't think it always applies. Someone earlier says that people know that Miramax and Dimension are Disney film studios. I do not buy that for a second. Without the Disney name people do not know that. The same way a lot of people thought finding nemo was a disney moive. The only people who do are major film buffs, entertainment people, and those people that post on these boards. I would be willing to bet a lot of money that if I went up to 100 people and asked them to name three studios Disney is over (Touchstone, Miramax, Dimension) not more than ten people would be able to name the three of them. I think that they should be free to make these movies. Don't get me wrong I love movies like Remember the Titans and the Princess Diaries that are the typical Disney movie that generates very nice returns. I just do not think that the company should limit themselves to only making films like this and animated films.

 

[Peter Pirate]

I agree with you fish...

On a side note: Eisner was asked about the Bad Santa movie today and said "apparantly nothing is sacred anymore"...

 

[Another Voice]

Apparently some people are fans of what a company makes...

And some people are fans of a company no matter what they make.

Interesting...

 

[Peter Pirate]

I'm a fan of the Pirates of the Caribbean movie, Brother Bear, Mission Space, Mickey's Philharmagic, Princess Diaries, Animal Kingdom Lodge, Lilo & Stitch and the Raven Show on Disney Channel and Al Weiss, to name a few. I'm not a fan of Kill Bill, Scary Movie, the empty HoND theatre, WDW busses, The Pearl Harbor movie, the Proud Family Show on Disney Channel, all of Downtown Disney or Michael Eisner...

Interesting...

 

[HB2K]

Ok stop with the porn.

They are making diffenent movies to appeal to different audiences.

I just do not think that the company should limit themselves to only making films like this and animated films.

Sorry Fish...it's not going away.

Where does the line fall? Peter already admitted he doesn't know where it is if we allow these kinds of movies to be made and justified by turning a profit. There are all types of profitable, sleazy markets which Disney has not tapped into. If they opened another arm which doesn't carry the Disney moniker but kicks upstairs to the mouse, why shouldn't they do it using your justifications?

And you can't say Mirimax doesn't tie back to Disney but then turn around and say the PORN industry would in a similar arraingment....

And Peter if you have to ask why Disney should not get involved in the casino business, then I think we've got a chasm the size of the Great Canyon between our views of the Walt Disney Company.

 

[ErikdaRed]

The porn issue is different as I said before because there would probably be a large public uproar if it was linked to Disney. Kill Bill or Bad Santa on the other hand, doesn't make it off of this board.

As far as gambling, Disney already does it in the church acceptable form every week.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"As far as gambling, Disney already does it in the church acceptable form every week."***

Disney has BINGO parlors ???? It's been a long day...please explain your comment.

 

[ErikdaRed]

Two parlors, called the Magic and the Wonder. Bingo every day of the week.

 

[Killer Fish]

Once again STOP WITH THE PORN. It is not relevant. Dimension has been making rated R movies for a long time. Scream came out a long time ago. It had bad language, violence, and gore. It was released under Dimension. Disney did not go wow that works lets try porn. I have said before that Disney will draw the line somewhere and porn is definitely on the other side of that line. So please in future examples stop bringing up porn. You and I know that it is not going to happen and if it does than that is where I will give up Disney forever. I am not concerned about this though because I know it will never happen. I do not see how Bad Santa and Kill Bill can be considered any worse than the Scream trilogy and Jay and Silent Bob Strike back. They appealed to another audience and I really don't think that they alienated the Disney family audience because it had no effect on them. I was younger when the first Scream came out (under 17). When it came out my parents didn't say, "Well Michael, Dimension as you know is owned by Disney and they released a movie with bad language. We think that this is bad for Disney's image so we are not going to see Disney's movies or go on vacation at disney world again. I am pretty sure that they did not even know that Dimension is owned by Disney (still don't think they know). In conclusion, Bad Santa is good for a certain audience. If you are a college student like myself you can go see the movie with your friends. Next day I can go see Brother Bear with my family. I get to see two movies that I want to see and I am happy.

Sorry for not breaking this into paragraphs.

 

[Peter Pirate]

...then I think we have a chasam as wide as the Grand Canyon...

Oh HBK, don't jump to conclusions ...I'm open for discussion here too...But after two trips to Vegas in the past two years I see a lot of Disney type magic there. Maybe there is a form of 'wholesome gambling'? (lol)...Apart from the DCL gambling already allowed...Very intersting Mr. red...

 

[wdwguide]

Originally posted by HB2K
Sorry Fish...it's not going away.

Where does the line fall?

The line falls where you yourself put it. Once the company crosses your line, stop paying them. I can live without Taco Bell, KFC and American music CDs (anything that falls within the RIAA's grasp) just fine, because these companies/organisations have crossed my line and they haven't seen a single penny from me since.

Once the number of people who do the same reaches a critical mass, the company will start losing money and will probably address the issue. Once Taco Bell stops endorsing slave labor, once KFC stops endorsing the horrid treatment of animals they expect me to eat, and once the RIAA stops suing everybody left and right for music piracy when they themselves disseminate materials onto those networks and use them for marketing purposes I may change my mind.

If the company gets close to crossing the line, let them know. They won't care in most cases (Disney certainly doesn't), but then you can say that you did your part.

 

[Bob O]

Now some here will say"Disney would never do porn".
But how can anyone say that will never happen???
Who would have thought 15 yrs ago that disney would be involved in the making of Kill Bill which is extremely violent and where the director states the movie is fine for kids over 12 yrs old if i got the age right.
Or who would have thought 15 yrs ago or even 10 that the disney company would be involved in a film where Santa uses profanities and has sex openly, with no reading in between the lines.
Its not much of a leap in another 5-10 yrs for r-rated movies to show images of sex that would have be considered porn now or would have been a couple of yrs ago, and this from a company that is supposed to be family friendly???
Whats next for syngergy, a Kill Bill float or Bad Santa float in a parade to boost upcoming dvd sales??? Maybe they could use Bad Santa as a rival to grinchmas at USF??
If disney is going to go to great lengths to portray their company/theme parks etc as family friendly then the line should be drawn where they arent going to release r-rated films that would offend alot of the same people who visit their parks or stores.
Since it is known that the largest moneymaking movies tend to be pg-13 or even pg then im sure disney as a company wouldnt go bankrupt and have their image sullied by making movies like Kill Bill or bad Santa.
And if this means getting out of bed with Miramax, so be it. Disney is happy to be a partner with Miramax when it wins a Oscar for a movie like Shakesphere in Love but now cant disnatce itself from that same company when it releases films like Bad Santa/Kill Bill.
A company needs to stand for something and a company with the pedigree of Walt Disney has always stood for strong family values(until recently that is).
I guess some are willing to lower their values and sell their soul in the pursuit of a dollar, but i would guess that the company NEVER would have been invovled in films like Kill Bill/Bad Santa etc under the regimes before the arival of eisner and even he wouldnt have done this when he was newly hired.

 

[HB2K]

Pirate-

Disney should not be in the Vegas gambling business for the same reasons they shouldn't own ABC. It's against their core buisiness concepts and the money should be invested elsewhere in their target markets.

But after two trips to Vegas in the past two years I see a lot of Disney type magic there

Aside from fantasy architecture, what concept is Disneyish? Breaking the family apart on a vacation except for breif interludes to dinners or shows? Little Johny can't sit on Daddy's lap while he's playing Blackjack....

Fish-

You can't make the arguement that on one hand Disney can have a seperately branded arm to put out the movie's it's core constituancy have a problem with and not tie the main brand to these movies....but then say it wouldn't work that way if the company continued to reach into other questionable markets in a similar manner....I mean you're saying it works for Mirimax & Dimension but not anything else?

Where's the line? If you say one form of sleazy movie is OK to distribute because it brings money, how is another form of sleazy movie not OK to distribute even thought it brings money???

As BobO points out...who would have guessed 15-20 years ago that Disney would be behind (albeit in the shadows) such perverse concepts as Kill Bill & Bad Santa?

WDWGuide-

I know where my personal line is, and up until recently Disney crossed it with regards to their theme park business. Recent events put them back on the right side of the line, but we'll see for how long.

My point to Peter & to a greater extent Fish & Eric is this. Where is the line where Disney selling a product (through any of it's marketing arms) soley for the purposes of making a quick buck fall? They scream to stop the porn analogy, but they don't say where Disney will stop. 15-20 Years ago we would have been screaming STOP THE HORROR analogies....and we know where that ended up...

 

[Killer Fish]

As I have said before the average consumer does not know that Disney owns Miramax and Dimension. If you say otherwise I believe you are wrong. The average theme park person will not know these movies are even related to Disney. Pulp Fiction came out quite a while ago and still no movement to porn.

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by Bob O Or who would have thought 15 yrs ago or even 10 that the disney company would be involved in a film where Santa uses profanities and has sex openly, with no reading in between the lines.

"Santa" does not curse and have sex in the movie. A con man who dresses like Santa curses and has sex in the movie. Just as in "Trading Places," where a rich man who has had his life pulled out from under him dresses as Santa and does some bad things.

Keep in mind that the article that launched this thread was in the Drudge Report, and that Matt Drudge has an interest in making things sound sensational. Here is a much less "loaded" plot summary from IMDB:

It is the height of the festive holiday season and merry shoppers have begun their yearly pilgrimages to their local malls. Among the drove is a pair of con men, on a decadent road trip as Santa and his elf. Rather than spreading good cheer, the duo's motive is to rob each establishment, a strategy that becomes complicated when they encounter a precocious 8-year old that teaches them the true meaning of Christmas.

I think Miramax exists not only to make money (since, as A-V and others have pointed out, studios often try to AVOID an R-rating so the films will make more money---they say that Ron Howard quit The Alamo because Disney wouldn't let him make that an "R" movie), but to give Disney some "street cred" in the film industry.

Bad Santa may just be a Bad Movie, but it stars Billy Bob Thornton, a respected talent (who is also Davey Crockett in The Alamo), and the red-hot Bernie Mac, and is directed by a guy (Terry Zwigoff) who gets a buzz among funky movie-lover types for his "Crumb" and "Ghost World."

And of course Quentin Tarantino is still one of the hippest young talents in Hollywood.

That's why I don't believe that this is purely about doing anything for money, but about establishing that Disney can work with the edgier, hipper creative types in Hollywood. Which is why this doesn't mean Disney is on the slippery slope toward hard-core porn.

Remember "Down and Out in Beverly Hills." An R-rated movie where Richard Dreyfus is having sex with the maid, Nick Nolte is having sex with everyone, the teenage son is unsure about his sexual orientation.... An offbeat director, Paul Mazursky. The prime example of the mid-budget movie which Eisner used to rebuild the live action movie production at Disney (via Touchstone). WOULD WALT'S DISNEY RELEASE A FILM LIKE THIS?

Disney is happy to be a partner with Miramax when it wins a Oscar for a movie like Shakesphere in Love but now cant disnatce itself from that same company when it releases films like Bad Santa/Kill Bill.

I think this is kind of the point. I don't think Miramax works unless it has the creative freedom to pursue different, interesting projects. A-V complains here that Disney chases away Hollywood talent, but then says Disney should have dictated limits to Tarentino, and should have told the Weinsteins not to make Bad Santa. I find that contradictory.

Sure, there may be limits (note that Disney did push the Weinsteins to take "Dogma" out of Miramax), but I'm not so sure that "Bad Santa" is going to be as horrifying as portrayed in the Drudge Report. Horrifyingly bad, perhaps, but...

 

[DisneyKidds]

Porn is a giant leap or oversimplification in this argument.

But Peter, the porn angle just adds so much value to the discussion. No..............it's not the R&N Board version of Globe type tabloid sensationalist garbage, it really is......................

Interesting...

.......................NOT!

 

[HB2K]

"Santa" does not curse and have sex in the movie

While I've yet to see the preview I'm running on the information presented in this thread. This is getting airplay in forums other than Drudge as well...which leads me to quote Matt from earlier in this thread:

By the way, this issue was discussed on a local radio show here in the SF Bay Area this morning, so its not exactly a secret that Disney owns Miramax. In fact, the unfortunate thing for Disney is that seems to be ALL people know... they don't have any clue about the "Disney doesn't really control what Miramax makes" idea.

Question... who decides what previews are shown before films? One of the hosts mentioned that they had gone to see Elf over the weekend and saw a preview for Bad Santa. Didn't bother the host, but they commented that a family with some fairly young children were sitting next to them, and they watched it "with their jaws dropped".

As to the porn issue...it is a bit overblown...but it illustrates the point...where does Disney set it's line? 15-20 Years ago noone would have imagined this type of film coming from the Walt Disney Company (or any of it's various branches). Now it's commonplace...all in the name of making a quick buck. So what other industries (such as a Casino if you don't like the porn referrence) will they jump into using the same realization?

 

[crusader]

And some people are fans of a company no matter what they make.

It's called consumer preference or brand loyalty. It's been going on since labels were invented.

or in your business it's the WB against the Independent Film. One produces crap which plays in all the film houses while the other puts out an epic masterpiece which struggles to be sought out and discovered.

Ugly but real.

DancingBear -

I immediately thought of Trading Places myself, and quickly realized how far we'd eroded our standards as depicted in today's version of Bad Santa.

Killer Fish - very great post you put out about the college audience. I happen to agree they are indescriminate with entertainment, and will go out and enjoy it all. Kill Bill reminds me of The Texas Chain Saw Massacre allure of my day. I hear Uma Thurman gives a kick @$$ oscar winning performance.

As for this topic, I welcome the edited version of the Bad Santa for all its' comedic glory but unfortunately, won't be gettin in line to see it raw. Too bad for Miramax. It would have been a great PG-13 type flick - which should have been considered eventhough it deviates from the "philosophy" of this production house .