Wonders of Life Pavilion cutting back on hours???

[KNWVIKING]

***"BINGO! We all agree. There is no cause for the empty building. Disney has dropped the ball in not keeping WoL fresh and it has now become irrelevent. The biggest crime is the irrelevence followed by the closing. There is no crime in trying to understand why Disney is closing it.

None of us is happy or endorses the closing of WoL but we understand it. No one is going to the pavillion. Does this make me happy? Not at all. But crying about the shutting of WoL will get us nowhere. At the most they just open it again to appease the crowds or the complainers and we still have the main problem which (again) is the irrelevence of WoL. We need to complain about the staleness of Wol & LS to force a change before it comes to this..."***

Absolutely. Thank you Peter.

***". What about Innoventions? Does anyone bother with those displays any more? At one time, I remember people exploring those buildings but they've never been kept fresh and new."***

PG, I don't spend near the time in Innovations that I used to.... I can go to Best Buy or Circuit City and see the same things. I honestly don't know how you can keep Inno fresh today. It seems no new product wows or surprises us anymore. What could they put in there to keep our attention and make it more interesting ?


Several months ago there was a thread about AK and one portion dealt with the educational aspect of the park. I commented about several things I had learned or at least been reminded of while on the Safari only to be rebuffed by an all-knowing expert on everything that my primary schools must have been lacking, ( I guess I missed that day in the 3rd grade where we discussed termite mounds and how Elephants use them as scratching posts and gazzell stand on top of them as a look out tower). Now I'm being told that WoL is a scientific marvel. I hear the Discovery channel is doing a documentary on hot & cold tubes.

 

[crusader]

Defending what moves?

I choose to skip WoL for all the reasons mentioned here - except for the main one:

Been there - done that. Maybe next time - but right now I've got to cut my losses because there are only so many hours in a day and there are other venues I unequivocably prefer to spend this ever so precious phenomenon called "time" at.

Larry, what you fail to mention is that your visit was during one of the slowest times at WDW. If you don't believe me, visit during the F & W fest. The place is rockin'. Most of my group kept going back and forth at least three days during a 5 day stint and only 3 out of 27 explored WoL.

They just ran out of time. A very common problem with touring plans. Unfortunately, this venue is not a priority to alot of us. That's a problem right there for Disney.
How do you propose they handle it?

 

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
[B***". What about Innoventions? Does anyone bother with those displays any more? At one time, I remember people exploring those buildings but they've never been kept fresh and new."***

PG, I don't spend near the time in Innovations that I used to.... I can go to Best Buy or Circuit City and see the same things. I honestly don't know how you can keep Inno fresh today. It seems no new product wows or surprises us anymore. What could they put in there to keep our attention and make it more interesting ?
[/B]

Wasn't the original intent to have companies come and showcase some of their new ideas? And aren't new ideas being developed all of the time? Even in the gaming world, there are constantly new innoventions being announced.

And it wouldn't have to be strictly technological. What of diet, ecology, medicine, communication and travel just to name a few? What about in some way taking a look at the real problems of the world?

It wouldn't be easy but being innovative never is.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"Wasn't the original intent to have companies come and showcase some of their new ideas? "***

Isn't that what's hapening now ? IBM is demonstrating software. Luton (sp) is showcasing home audio/video. They have the future home. A Segway demonstration. Underwriters Lab. Video gaming area. Monsanto Lumber,etc... But people don't seem interested. I've got 110 channels at home telling me all about the past,present and future wonders of the world. I'm at EPCOT !!! Where's the spin & puke ?!?!?

 

[crusader]

I'm at EPCOT !!! Where's the spin & puke ?!?!?

This is comedy central at its' finest!

I'm laughing so hard it hurts.

 

[airlarry!]

Crusader,

Valid question. But think about the actual question you are asking.

I think it is fair to say that the question is:

Park X has Attraction Y that does not meet attendance requirements. What do we do about it?

If the answer is yours and Vike's, namely that it is justifiable in that case to shutter said attraction during the offseason....

Wow...it wil only take me five minutes and about ten paragraphs to list out the number of attractions at WDW during my week there that had LESS people than WoL.

See my point? It is a slippery slope upon which you walk.

M. Vike pokes fun at AV's point. Good jabs, but M. Vike missed the point. Many, many parts of WDW operate with little to no visitors during the offseason, yet the parks are still open, and people are still there. Each pavilion is a part and parcel of the vacation package that visitor purchased, and the "answer" to fixing an attraction that does not meet attendance is not by closing that attraction. Instead, leave the attraction open until you are ready to announce improvements that would generate bigger numbers.

I'll bet the first suit that dreamed up the Leagues closure said the same thing--Let's just 'shutter' the attraction, and after a while people will just accept that its not a part of their vacation package anymore.

 

[Peter Pirate]

I can't let this go by...

M:S is (or will soon be) a flop.

I've got to say it again...

M:S is (or will soon be) a flop.

Lions and tigers and bears...OH MY!!!

I know many are disillusioned by the 'lack of creativity' but I don't see it...Nor do the crowds of folks lining to ride it. We've been three times since it opened and I've found the buzz around all of WDW concerning M:S to be like nothing I've witnessed before and the attitude around the building (which is stunning, especially at night) is electric. There is laughter and wild eyes everywhere and I've yet to see anyone get sick...I just don't see this attitude, even if you didn't personally like the ride.

...Cranium Command is an absolute gem.

I agree the idea is great and the show was great but it is dated into irrelevence. My kids howled at the clothes and haircuts...Don't get me wrong, they laughed at the right parts (as well) but it's about a 14 year old boy and my daughter (who is now 14) didn't connect with this kid of the 80's at all...

M Pirate, I know in my heart that you think so too.

Oh, I absolutely agree that closed = bad. My POV is that we Disney fanatics should be making a stink before it gets to this point. It is sad that Disney hasn't received a million letters or walk in complaints stating that "The Living Seas is just lame...But it could be good"...We just prefer to lament the loss and as Viking keeps pointing out, the loss of WoL is relatively minor for most WDW visitors (sad but true).

As for Innovations...

Wasn't the original intent to have companies come and showcase some of their new ideas?

Doesn't this dependance on "outsiders" strike fear or loathing in many Disney purists? Besides how many companies can see the merit of expending their advertising or PR budgets in such ways? When banging us over the head on the boob tube is so much easier? We complain that Disney no longer stands for the right stuff but are there any other companies out there who do?

 

[KNWVIKING]

... I tried to make this clear in earlier posts, but I'll say it again: I AM NOT IN FAVOR OF CLOSING WOL, seasonally or otherwise.

That doesn't mean I can't look at something Disney decides to do and understand why they chose to do it. Are they closing WoL because it's a huge profit center: No. Maybe because the attraction is always crowded:No. Mechanically unsound: Doubtfull. Nobody goes there: Probably. I'm not going to blindly condem every move Disney makes just because it is popular to do so on this board.

 

[crusader]

and the "answer" to fixing an attraction that does not meet attendance is not by closing that attraction. Instead, leave the attraction open until you are ready to announce improvements that would generate bigger numbers.

Excellent.

I agree.

Now, given that doesn't appear to be the reason why the operating hours are being manipulated here - I'd say it has to do with the overall park management structure.

AV's contention that this falls in line with the philosophy of cutback now, spend even less later and stick it to the guests in the process is certainly noble but not really the case in point.

Another brick? I say - no. It's the same brick moved from one wall to another.

The cutbacks have already occured. We're all very much aware of that. But consider what else is going on - a new venue opened and attendance levels are gradually on the rise. What I suspect is a staffing/operations reorg. vs hiring increase.

Hope may be on to something. When's the last time all of EPCOT's Future World was open for business?

 

[airlarry!]

M. Vike:

M. Pirate's question was regarding who was 'defending' not 'supporting' this decision.

I don't believe for a second that any of you support this decision. But I believe that two of you are defending this decision, and defending, to me, is based upon seeing the trees and not the forest.

The forest is this:

There were less people when I was there in the Canadian show, The Land, Living Seas, Imagination, and Ellen (for our Ellen show, they actually only used two theatre cars and didn't fill up either one).

Give me some time, and I'll give you ten more attractions that had less people in them than WoL.

WoL is getting shut down for money, and for the fact that it is a very poorly designed layout which contributes to less people going to see great attractions like Cranium Command, and for the fact that Body Wars, for whatever reason, is not as smooth of an experience as Star Tours, and people shy away from it.

Close the dang thing for all I care, but show some heart, Mikey, and fix it.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"Hope may be on to something. When's the last time all of EPCOT's Future World was open for business?"***

Hasn't everything been open for the last several months -at least those attractions that weren't in the process of being built ? What's been closed in FW ?

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"I don't believe for a second that any of you support this decision. But I believe that two of you are defending this decision, and defending, to me, is based upon seeing the trees and not the forest." ***

Well, if somebody didn't defend it, this would be a boring one page thread

 

[airlarry!]

Well, if somebody didn't defend it, this would be a boring one page thread

Now that was funny!

But we could make it a fifteen page thread of "Ditto! Stupid decision!" and send it to Roy.

Or a fifteen page thread of Attractions with smaller attendance numbers than WoL.

 

[crusader]

But viking that's my point. This is the first time everything has been open in over a decade which begs the question: why now introduce the prospect of WoL operating seasonally?

 

[mudhen]

"Didn't have time"

"No time because of touring plan"

A theme is developing here....."I would go
if we had extra time after seeing the big
stuff"

Memo to TDA......Don't shutter half of FW
at 6:00 pm!!!!!!
Going back a few months, I was there in July
with the family, and after 5:30-6:00 p.m. it
was a mess navigating through WS. Of course
this would have been the perfect time to visit
oldies but goodies in FW.......If they were open.

It is wrong to blame the guests for the "been there
done that" attitude. Disney should invest some
capital to improve and update their attractions
if attendance at these attractions is falling.

 

[KNWVIKING]

**". Disney should invest some
capital to improve and update their attractions
if attendance at these attractions is falling."**

That's pretty much what we've all been saying.

Larry, we were there in Oct & Dec. I think you might be hard pressed to come up with a long list of attraction with smaller crowds then WoL, but I'm basing that opinion solely on what I personnally observed. Your situation may have been different.

I really believe the lack of a sponsor is the reason it's going seasonal. Can LS be far behind ? What happens when Exxon pulls out of Energy ? Maybe Energy stays open if they build a gift shop to exit into.

 

[WDWHound]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
[BThat doesn't mean I can't look at something Disney decides to do and understand why they chose to do it. Are they closing WoL because it's a huge profit center: No. Maybe because the attraction is always crowded:No. Mechanically unsound: Doubtfull. Nobody goes there: Probably. I'm not going to blindly condem every move Disney makes just because it is popular to do so on this board. [/B]

It boils down to this, I understand Disney's reasoning and it is indefensible. It violates Hound's laws of theme park management (all of which are listed here below)...

#1 Show is king, serve it above all else in your park and money will follow
#2 As often as possible, Thou shalt create something new and wonderful
#3 Always be asking thyself, how can I make what I offer better, for a mirror that is never polished reflects poorly on you.
#4 If thou offers less because thou wishes thine wallet to be fatter, expect thy wallet to be emptier soon.
#5 The question should never be "will they tolerate this?", but rather "Will they be made joyous by this?"
#6 To make more money, offer more value. Any other approach is an illusion.

I don't care if an attraction is lightly attended. I don't care if you've recently replaced another pavillion with a cool new attraction. I don't care the attraction is dated. You never, never close and attraction without replacing it. And this seasonal closing garbage is even worse. It costs the same to enter the park in December as it does July, yet I am expected accept less attractions just becuase I am there in December!

Rahab it, replace it, or leave it open. Simply closing it is not an option.

 

[KNWVIKING]

**"#1 Show is king, serve it above all else in your park and money will follow"**

Is an empty or near empty pavillion good Show ?

 

[WDWHound]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
**"#1 Show is king, serve it above all else in your park and money will follow"**

Is an empty or near empty pavillion good Show ?

Why is the lack of bodies bad show? Besides, I would argue that the pavillion is not deserted. I have been to Epcot when there were only a few thousand people in the entire park, yet the Cranium Command theater was half full and my Body Wars car was completely full.

Disney's decision violates rules 3-6, all of which lead to bad show. As you have said, the right thing to do would be to rehap or replace the pavillion. Failure to do so do not justify closing it.

 

[Bob O]

So now the disney apologists dont like to be called on it or taken to task for their supporting disney decisions that reduce guest enjoyment at the parks. They werent upset about reduced operating hours or the amount of attractions closed and not replaced and now they arent upset in the least about the clsoing of entire pavilions. And of course if this goes thru with little commition from the public we all know the next thing will be too close two pavilions.
So now they use the phrase of " i understand " since that sounds better than saying they again agree with almost all disney does!!!
Just like the liberal democrats who changed their name to progressives or new democrats when being called a liberal was looked upon as a negative. The new name sounded nice but the policies were the same as before and that is the same for the " i understand" crowd who show a unwillingness to take disney too task for another reduction in the magic!!!!!