Why no hotel on the EPCOT line

[PACVII]

With DVC building at the Polynesian why not build a new deluxe on the EPCOT line? Seems to be lots of room and a easy big win anywhere along the line. Road access is there already as well so seems to make sense...

 

[Theaberdeenkid]

Because Boardwalk, Beach, Yacht, Swan, Dolphin are walking distance or a short boat ride to Epcot and HS.

 

[DebbieB]

With DVC building at the Polynesian why not build a new deluxe on the EPCOT line? Seems to be lots of room and a easy big win anywhere along the line. Road access is there already as well so seems to make sense...

Because Boardwalk, Beach, Yacht, Swan, Dolphin are walking distance or a short boat ride to Epcot and HS.

I agree, I'd rather be within walking distance. The monorail breaks down pretty often.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

They wish to avoid the cost of developing "new Properties" and adding additional food, restaurants, etc that require more costs and employees.

The last "new" hotels that disney has built are animal kingdom lodge "started 1999" and the pop century complex "started 2001"...there has been no brand spanking new developments since...and don't look for them to be eager to do that unless they are either swamped with a deluge of new business (not likely at all) or they max out the already developed space.

And as my esteemed fellow posters pointed out...there isn't much a need and the monorail is not something they will "build around".

the monorail system is dying...they won't put a cent into it that isnt absolutely necessary and its on life support due to PR implications.

If they didn't spur wilderness lodge onto it in 1994...or at least build a pedestrian bridge and a platform of some sort on the existing line...pretty unlikely they will be doing anything. the same can be said of the failure to tie in 5 hotels built in the early 90's behind epcot onto the lines....that's only about 4,000 rooms that are a stones throw away that could have been serviced...or more than are serviced on the seven seas already.

 

[eadavis]

They wish to avoid the cost of developing "new Properties" and adding additional food, restaurants, etc that require more costs and employees. The last "new" hotels that disney has built are animal kingdom lodge "started 1999" and the pop century complex "started 2001"...there has been no brand spanking new developments since...and don't look for them to be eager to do that unless they are either swamped with a deluge of new business (not likely at all) or they max out the already developed space. And as my esteemed fellow posters pointed out...there isn't much a need and the monorail is not something they will "build around". the monorail system is dying...they won't put a cent into it that isnt absolutely necessary and its on life support due to PR implications. If they didn't spur wilderness lodge onto it in 1994...or at least build a pedestrian bridge and a platform of some sort on the existing line...pretty unlikely they will be doing anything. the same can be said of the failure to tie in 5 hotels built in the early 90's behind epcot onto the lines....that's only about 4,000 rooms that are a stones throw away that could have been serviced...or more than are serviced on the seven seas already.

Umm,

Art of Animation
Bay Lake Tower
Kidani Village
Grand Floridian DVC

I think they've made some "new developments," granted they're mostly DVC resort extensions.

And yes, new properties bring additional costs, they also bring additional revenues...

Given the reported record attendance, I think they could use more resort options, a new moderate resort would do well, plenty of room near Animal Kingdom. As for the monorail, it's been looking like the investments are going toward the busses: new paint jobs, adding reticulated busses, modifying MK bus stops. Logistically, if you look at the existing monorail system, making any change beyond a new wrap for one of the cars, you're looking at a terrible ROI.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Umm,

Art of Animation
Bay Lake Tower
Kidani Village
Grand Floridian DVC

I think they've made some "new developments," granted they're mostly DVC resort extensions.

And yes, new properties bring additional costs, they also bring additional revenues...

Given the reported record attendance, I think they could use more resort options, a new moderate resort would do well, plenty of room near Animal Kingdom. As for the monorail, it's been looking like the investments are going toward the busses: new paint jobs, adding reticulated busses, modifying MK bus stops. Logistically, if you look at the existing monorail system, making any change beyond a new wrap for one of the cars, you're looking at a terrible ROI.

Ummm...

You missed the whole point.

All of those things built were on existing sitework locations...where much of the ground stabilization and utility trunks were already there.

Granted they did have to do some of that...but not like building from the start.

"Record attendance" is a bit of red herring...there attendance growth has been fairly slow and don't forget that they have never ceased building dvcs...which creates natural attendance growth because its guaranteed.

And that's my point...DVC construction will continue and is logistically going to continue at pre established sites.

Now here's where it's gonna get interesting... Poly is underway...then the fort Wildeness/wilderness lodge expansion is the next logical step...
Then what?

Well... That's where we get into the real truth behind the strategic plan for the whole place...

If the build mixed use spots like boardwalk or the Hawaii property...then longterm looks good

If its "the villas at Disney's yacht club resort" or " more tree house villas at Saratoga"...then I would take that to mean that hotel construction is a thing of the past.

You do know that art of animation was started in 2001 as the other half of pop, right? And that it sat in mothballs until they felt the need for the suites that have become hotel Industry norm could Justify their pennies?

GF, contemp, AKL....Already there!!

 

[OKW Lover]

Interesting question. I can see that there are easily a couple of suitable locations for resorts along that beam-way. No doubt the land where the old STOL port is suitable for development. Also there seems to be land at the northeast corner of the intersection of World Drive and Epcot Center drive that is adjacent to the line and developable.

I think Disney needs to answer a few questions about it first:

• Are they ready to add more resort rooms to their inventory?
• Do they need another Deluxe property?
• Would it make sense to build a moderate or value resort on the monorail line and, if they did that, would it "devalue" the current monorail resorts?
• Does putting a stop on the express TTC>Epcot loop affect monorail operations enough to require additional trains?

 

[Hollowellfam6]

We are not going to see any expansion in resorts until we see full attendance in all parks or something close to that, at least that's my opinion. I see Disney pushing for more than MK and partially EPCOT as full day parks. AK and HS are no where close, and I feel that expansions, what ever they may be, need to drive these parks to full day before we see any new resorts. Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[Q-man]

If its "the villas at Disney's yacht club resort" or " more tree house villas at Saratoga"...then I would take that to mean that hotel construction is a thing of the past.

There is no need to build anymore on property rooms until Disney no longer has to offer 'free dining' to fill them. I believe presently, between resorts and DVC, there are ~25K on property rooms. DVCs being the exception as they are pre-sold rooms for ~30 years guaranteeing owners park attendance over that time.

 

[nuts]

What makes you think they don't have designs already...in particular as it applies to a stand alone DVC?

 

[OKW Lover]

We are not going to see any expansion in resorts until we see full attendance in all parks or something close to that, at least that's my opinion. I see Disney pushing for more than MK and partially EPCOT as full day parks. AK and HS are no where close, and I feel that expansions, what ever they may be, need to drive these parks to full day before we see any new resorts. Just my $0.02 worth.

Interesting perspective. Perhaps Disney doesn't equate park capacity and resort capacity though. As long as there are people choosing to stay off property does that indicate that there is an opportunity to attract them to stay on property, regardless of park capacity?

What makes you think they don't have designs already...in particular as it applies to a stand alone DVC?

I suspect there are designs for new resorts, DVC and non-DVC, on some back burner somewhere. Perhaps not fully imagined, but concepts at the least.

 

[OKW Lover]

There is no need to build anymore on property rooms until Disney no longer has to offer 'free dining' to fill them. I believe presently, between resorts and DVC, there are ~25K on property rooms. DVCs being the exception as they are pre-sold rooms for ~30 years guaranteeing owners park attendance over that time.

Good point about the free dining. How about if they were to design a resort that was priced so that people would stay there without "free dining" but still make a profit? For that matter, do we know that Disney isn't still making money on the resorts despite FD?

 

[DanInMN]

Anyone in a seasonal business wishes that daily capacity could be adjusted to meet demand, but it doesn't work that way with capital intensive services like theme parks and hotel rooms. Free dining and other offers are an incentive to fill open rooms and empty parks during off peak times, and sometimes to encourage early bookings for return visits.

I don't understand the high-end hotel market at all... even if I won the lottery I can't see spending $500+/night - even with a monorail. But people do it all the time... I'd never make it in the hotel business!

Disney needs more Value or Moderate priced rooms suitable for families of 5+ people. Right now the best option is an off-site condo.

 

[eadavis]

Ummm... You missed the whole point. All of those things built were on existing sitework locations...where much of the ground stabilization and utility trunks were already there. Granted they did have to do some of that...but not like building from the start. "Record attendance" is a bit of red herring...there attendance growth has been fairly slow and don't forget that they have never ceased building dvcs...which creates natural attendance growth because its guaranteed. And that's my point...DVC construction will continue and is logistically going to continue at pre established sites. Now here's where it's gonna get interesting... Poly is underway...then the fort Wildeness/wilderness lodge expansion is the next logical step... Then what? Well... That's where we get into the real truth behind the strategic plan for the whole place... If the build mixed use spots like boardwalk or the Hawaii property...then longterm looks good If its "the villas at Disney's yacht club resort" or " more tree house villas at Saratoga"...then I would take that to mean that hotel construction is a thing of the past. You do know that art of animation was started in 2001 as the other half of pop, right? And that it sat in mothballs until they felt the need for the suites that have become hotel Industry norm could Justify their pennies? GF, contemp, AKL....Already there!!

Well aware lockedout

As far as new projects, as I mentioned in my previous post, I'd like to see a moderate go in near DAK, they could work off the Asian theming from the park and could be really well done. Or at least do something near the Western Way/429 intersection. Sadly, it seems that DVC is the priority, and expanding off existing resorts is more financially feasible (general construction, adding busses,modifying existing bus stops/routes, etc)

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Well aware lockedout

As far as new projects, as I mentioned in my previous post, I'd like to see a moderate go in near DAK, they could work off the Asian theming from the park and could be really well done. Or at least do something near the Western Way/429 intersection. Sadly, it seems that DVC is the priority, and expanding off existing resorts is more financially feasible (general construction, adding busses,modifying existing bus stops/routes, etc)

see...i think you will see a moderate being the "last" thing they'll ever build...

not after they built the "value" art of animation and charge what they do for it.

That...i feel...is a thing of the past. all of the moderates where designed and constructed in the 1980's when the "middle class" was still the core focus...that no longer exists. Coronado was built for the convention space...without it, there would be no moderate there.

I personally think all future traditional hotel construction will be third party...anybody remember "flamingo crossing"?
Well...if you dont, its because it was never built due to lack of demand.
disney will pound vacation club until they cant sell it...there's absolutely no reason for them not to...nor build anything rack as long as the contracts go.

And there is also, as pointed out, lack of park capacity to drive revenues to justify construction...
those parks simply are not "full" enough for them...because person X was there on a "mobbed day"...in there opinion...doesn't change the fact that they have plenty of space in the parks on the aggregate that isn't being taken up.
It's not because there arent enough hotel rooms.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Anyone in a seasonal business wishes that daily capacity could be adjusted to meet demand, but it doesn't work that way with capital intensive services like theme parks and hotel rooms. Free dining and other offers are an incentive to fill open rooms and empty parks during off peak times, and sometimes to encourage early bookings for return visits.

I don't understand the high-end hotel market at all... even if I won the lottery I can't see spending $500+/night - even with a monorail. But people do it all the time... I'd never make it in the hotel business!

Disney needs more Value or Moderate priced rooms suitable for families of 5+ people. Right now the best option is an off-site condo.

walt disney world doesn't operate on a seasonal model and really never has had too. This last 5 years of pretty significant discounts represents the longest such period in their history. I can tell you they don't like it at all.

The reason...that "market analysts" would completely miss...at least in the case of the united states...is that the wealth has been slowly sucked out of the population for 40 years. Funny how mom and dad cant take the kids if the prices go up constantly AND they have less money every year.

but whatever. WDW expects 100% occupancy 365 days a year, less is a fail. It seems ridiculous...but i can verify that for a fact. And often they've done pretty close...90+% occupancy for the year. they're not the jersey shore or myrtle beach in any regard.

And they have done very well with the high end market...especially over the last 20 years.
the poly and contemp opened at $20.00 rooms...that SAME room will run you $400+ now. the just charged it up and relabeled it...and now its "nostalgia/luxury".
But its not really...the people just buy.

WDW aint for poor people...and they continue to widen that gap by design. i appreciate your stance...as i tend to agree a room is only worth so much...but that's not how the majority of people that go seem to act.

i dont see any advantage for them to build values or moderates at this point...they are inclined to build expensive places...which their target audience will pay for...and then if they hook 'em, they buy their high end timeshare.

bread and circuses for everyone

 

[OnSpaceshipEarth]

Fascinating insights from lockedoutlogic(as usual).

Lockedoutlogic...you say there was a year in the past where they hit 90% annual occupancy. What would you *guesstimate* it to be for 2013?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Fascinating insights from lockedoutlogic(as usual).

Lockedoutlogic...you say there was a year in the past where they hit 90% annual occupancy. What would you *guesstimate* it to be for 2013?

Somebody posted on a previous thread a few months back that it was about 83%

Still not bad considering what they charge for the rooms (my guess is about a 40% overpayment for the services offered)...but enough of a margin that no hotels other than DVC are warranted.

The first 15 years, there weren't enough rooms, the second 15...massive growth and expansion...

The last 12 or so?
Not so much

 

[emilyindisney]

The argument of the already existing EPCOT resorts aside, I'm not sure Disney needs another deluxe. With the rapid expansion of DVC (recently at GF with rumors of Poly) and values (with the addition of AoA) maybe moderate might be the way to go. Disney wouldn't be able to build another moderate resort and put it on a monorail, though.

In reality, I don't know that Disney has the crowds/needs for another resort at this time, especially if it requires putting money into a brand new undeveloped property, as other posters have suggested.

 

[OnSpaceshipEarth]

The argument of the already existing EPCOT resorts aside, I'm not sure Disney needs another deluxe. With the rapid expansion of DVC (recently at GF with rumors of Poly) and values (with the addition of AoA) maybe moderate might be the way to go. Disney wouldn't be able to build another moderate resort and put it on a monorail, though.

In reality, I don't know that Disney has the crowds/needs for another resort at this time, especially if it requires putting money into a brand new undeveloped property, as other posters have suggested.

I absolutely agree. When Disney is almost running year-round discounts in one form or another to get people to stay *on property* it suggests that there are more than enough rooms to satisfy demand.

I'd much rather they direct resources into the Parks...if they do *that* then there would be more of a need to expand their Resort portfolio.