why $10 per point?

[Dean]

Originally posted by PamOKW
Renting points out to people beyond one's personal circle of friends and family is a grey area with DVC as far as I'm concerned. It moves more into the realm of being a business and I think steps into being a commercial use of the property. The proliferation of the Internet and boards such as these had made renting points much easier for everyone than if people were using classified newspaper ads. I wish the practice had been stopped by DVC but it seems like it is here to stay. In the grand scheme, it is still a very small amount of points that are being rented out this way.

Pam and I have posted on opposite sides of this fence before. I don't expect to change her mind and I'm sure she doesn't expect me to change mine. For the rest, here's my feelings garnered from reading the POS and a little understanding of the legal ramifications. Legally DVC cannot prevent one from renting what that person owns without making it almost impossible to rent the rooms themselves. Disney could make it difficult based on usage of protected trademarks and the like and various hoops to jump through but would be treading on thin ice unless one were blatantly using Disney's logo's and the like.

For those that might have missed the previous discussion including the newer members and non members here. The legal paperwork specific allows renting and says so in SEVERAL places, but states in one place on (I believe) that comercial usage is forbidden. Most perks are technically not given to renters though in reality there is no policement in this area. DVC did not decide to elaborate further on specifics in these 2 areas. Many of the more pure at heart have taken this to mean that anything that's a "profit" or anything above the dues rate is "commercial". My first though is that they are trying to prevent someone from running a business out of the DVC units and at the very least, prevent someone from opening a door with a sign above stating DVC rentals with the logo above. Even then, I don't think DVC could prevent rentals, just use of protected simbols. We've even had one of the resale agents renting out points on DIS and DVCrent. Frankly anything less than that would be within the legal and DVC rules in my estimation. There are some tax ramifications in that anything over "2 weeks" rental is taxable but no real precedent in figuring out what 2 weeks is when dealing with a points type timeshare.

 

[PamOKW]

Dean -- I agree that renting is and probably will continue to be allowed. I just think some of the people who come here looking to rent points think it is a business that has established rules and pricing -- like renting from Disney but somehow it will be magically almost a free vacation. In reality, it is no different than renting out a cabin in the woods or a house on the shore from someone you meet on the Internet. You agree on the terms with that person and follow your instincts on how legitimate it will be.

The one thing DVC does specifically mention is that you can't put a "For Rent" sign in the window of a unit. I also think that if renting became widespread here and that any type of price fixing were attempted by renters banding together that the Disney powerhouse would squash us like a bug.

 

[TrudyZ]

One thing to think about if the rental price per point were $15+; it would make it much more attractive to purchase extra contracts just for renting.

With current contract resale prices, one could easily find a resale in the low 60s with plenty of banked points. Assuming last years were banked and this years were available, you soon would see that it wouldn't take very many years to recoup your initial investment and turn a profit (you could get nearly half back in the first year).

Now, there are many that say this is blatantly against the rules; but there are some members of this board that seem to always have plenty of points to rent now. As far as I am concerned, that's none of my business. But for those of you concerned about renters; a large increase in the price per point gotten out of rentals will only fuel the rental market.

And one more thing, as a former renter, I can say that it takes an enormous leap of faith to put a four digit check in the mail to someone you don't personally know--and knowing that they could cancel at anytime and you would be none the wiser. With that, and the loss of the liberal CRO cancellation policy, and maid service, if rental prices were even somewhat close to the AP price; I would have never rented points.

Trudy

Ps Bill and Deb: I didn't NEED to rent DVC points to check out DVC. I wanted to. Besides experiencing the resort, it allowed me to see if I could go without maid service (sounded gastly at first but was no big deal), etc. It sounds like you would be happier if the ability to rent points was eliminated all together. Although that may be your preference; I think that many members, even though they have no intention of renting them out now, wouldn't want to give up that option--you never know what the future holds.

Pam--I didn't support Disney or DVC sales staff either--I bought a resale. What I did do is allow one member, who because of the loss of a spouse decided to sell, recoup their investment. And, of course, the demand on the resale market helps keep the value of our DVC contracts up.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by PamOKW
Dean -- I agree that renting is and probably will continue to be allowed. I just think some of the people who come here looking to rent points think it is a business that has established rules and pricing -- like renting from Disney but somehow it will be magically almost a free vacation. In reality, it is no different than renting out a cabin in the woods or a house on the shore from someone you meet on the Internet. You agree on the terms with that person and follow your instincts on how legitimate it will be.

The one thing DVC does specifically mention is that you can't put a "For Rent" sign in the window of a unit. I also think that if renting became widespread here and that any type of price fixing were attempted by renters banding together that the Disney powerhouse would squash us like a bug.

Pam on this we mostly agree. Even if Disney is not on firm legal ground, they carry a lot of weight which they can throw around if they want. They are literally the 600 lb gorilla.

I must say that I take offense to those wanting to rent attempting to set the rules. I also am offended by members that want to make it a closed environement. I've rented several times as I have more points than I can personally use. I probably should sell one of my contracts but can't bear to part with my DVC. Frankly, it's not for the money. I enjoy the friends I've met and helping people realize their dream. I can't tell you the feelings I get when someone returns from a trip and sends me that almost predictable email after their first DVC (and usually first WDW) trip. The WOW factor is a rush. So far I've found the non members much easier to deal with overall and much more appreciative. I've had great times with members too but the only problem I've had was with a member, now a member of this board but I don't think they were at the time. If it was mostly the money I'd simply work an hour longer a week at the office, I'd make a lot more money than I could make renting DVC even at Millenium rates. As I said, it's enjoyable.

 

[PamOKW]

Trudy -- I was just rebutting the idea that a person renting points, buying into DVC or buying a resale has any positive effect on current members. Okay, you didn't pay Disney you purchased from someone who wanted/needed to sell. I am not looking to sell my purchase and I am not looking to rent points....I don't care about the "market" for points or rentals. It has no effect on me except for possibly in a sense of satisfaction that I "could" get $XX if I were to sell. Your rental was no more personally positive for me than if you rented a beach house in Malibu and your purchase no different than if you bought a house. (I'm glad you're a member and on these boards....that's the only personal benefit I have from your transaction.)

I still maintain that there are potential negatives involved in people renting out their points for cash rather than using the DVC as their vacation vehicle -- as it was intended. It takes away from the pool of people who are looking to rent from Disney (supporting our Disney Collection options) and possibly from people who would trade into DVC. The amount of people renting is still small enough that the impact may not be noticeable but I think the potential exists. People who booked the NYE 1999 purely to turn a profit were a prime example of doing a disservice to members.

 

[QueenAnne]

That is a very good point, Doc! Something is only really worth what someone is willing to pay. Will your vacation be any less "valuable" if you rented at $8 or $10 a point?

 

[PKS44]

PamOKW-wrote
"It takes away from the pool of people who are looking to rent from Disney (supporting our Disney Collection options) and possibly from people who would trade into DVC"

(man I wish I knew how to do those fancy quotes like Dean has)

Pam- Excellent point and one I had not considered. I don't know how many people this represents, but the recent expansion of rentals could be one reason the points went up so much in the Disney Collection. Many will forgo the easy cancellation, etc to pay 50% less for a room than CRO would charge them...food for thought.

Paul

 

[Dean]

Paul, there are 2 ways to quote. One is to click on the quote button at the bottom right of a post and it will bring up a reply window with the entire post quoted and will reference the person it's quoted from. The second is to copy what you want to quote then when you bring up the reply window, click the quote button at the top.

As for renters affecting the DVC options, I would look at it differently. If there are less people to rent from CRO, that will make the DVC members and their points more attractive to the other Disney hotels and might even decrease the points costs for the DC. While there might be a few less looking to trade into DVC if they rent instead, II still has a long waiting line so no real affect there. And since I'm not convinced that they don't take as good care of our units as members or that they are more likely to abuse the rules; I can't see any negative to a member by having non members stay there other than the loss of the exclussive country club mentality. That's not saying that being part of an exclussive group is bad, it can be good.

 

[PamOKW]

will make the DVC members and their points more attractive to the other Disney hotels and might even decrease the points costs for the DC.

I was thinking more along the lines of rooms at DVC going empty because people are renting from members. DVC has to get the cash from rentals to "pay" the other hotels. I don't think rentals will ever reach a point where they have an impact on all WDW hotels but it "could" effect our cash. For example, 10 members have traded to the Disney Collection. There are now 10 rooms that DVC needs to rent. They can't get rack rate for them because mutliple member rentals are undercutting the prices. In fact, 4 of the rooms are never rented. The following year, DVC ups the amount of points needed to stay at a Disney Collection hotel to give them more chances to recoup the money.

I don't think we're at this point yet. I'm just concerned that large numbers of people renting their points at WDW were not part of the equation when DVC figured out how all this would balance out.

 

[drusba]

It took me quite a long while to read this thread to get a full understanding which I believe I now have:

1. A post that begins "not looking for a fight" will obviously never cause one.

2. $10 a point is too much, $8 a point is an embarrassment, $5 a point is just fine, unless of course you are talking about rental price rather than sale price from Disney, in which case it should be at least $15 a point except when the renter is a leech requiring you to give them away.

3. DVC Members should never rent, or should always rent, or are allowed to rent, or are prohibited from renting, or should rent only when impossible to use their points, or should rent only to other members, who of course they can't trust, and, in any event, all members who rent should be squashed like bugs by Disney unless they only rent Fridays and Saturdays which nobody uses anyway.

4. Renting points is like buying a dress or taking a cruise, should never be done with strangers, and by no means should it ever replace the age old custom of giving your points away to family and friends, unless you don't like them, in which case you should charge those suckers through the nose.

5. There is a way to quote people on these boards, for which I have now received instruction, but, of course, I still can't firgure it out, and thus the most useful part of this thread has failed me.


5. And Dean is renting his points for two years and going to Hawaii--and the SOB didn't even invite us to go with.

 

[TrudyZ]

Thanks to Drusba, meeting adjourned!!

Trudy

 

[WDWguru]

ROFLOL! ::wild applause::

 

[RobDoc]

Looks like you have captured the essence of the thread, drusba!

Thanks for the summary!

 

[PKS44]

Originally posted by Dean
Paul, there are 2 ways to quote. One is to click on the quote button at the bottom right of a post and it will bring up a reply window with the entire post quoted and will reference the person it's quoted from. The second is to copy what you want to quote then when you bring up the reply window, click the quote button at the top.

This is a test to see if I figured out how to do this...cool it works!!!Thanks, Dean! But I think Pam explains her concerns about renting and the effect on the Disney Collection as I understand it. I think she is right. More rentals from us members = less demand for rooms rented to the public by CRO. less demand= lower price and lower profits when we trade out...I don't think it works the way you suggest that it could make CRO want to get us or our points...

drusba- very funny. I am still smiling...

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by drusba
It took me quite a long while to read this thread to get a full understanding which I believe I now have:

5. There is a way to quote people on these boards, for which I have now received instruction, but, of course, I still can't firgure it out, and thus the most useful part of this thread has failed me.


5. And Dean is renting his points for two years and going to Hawaii--and the SOB didn't even invite us to go with.

Funny!!! You read too slow. Also 6 is after 5. LOL. Seriously, going to HI using other timeshares but can't get time off beyond that so we're stuck, can't go to Disney for a while. I even got 2 rooms in Maui so we could have some privacy from the kids. You know how those slotted doors at the Embassy transmits noise. I got a big suite case and you can sleep out under the stars......on the beach or in the park. Maybe I should send you a postcard, you know the ones you won't let the kids look at.

 

[Granny]

drusba.....thanks for the multiple chuckles in one post.