Who else is dealing with CPM math?

[jodifla]

This is the new math curriculum that my district is using, CPM .... it's been controversial in many districts who have tried it. Many have abandoned it already. It's not new; it rolled out in California in the '90s. One district saw its math scores drop every year they used the curriculum.

It was apparently the only math curriculum that didn't have to be radically revamped to fit the Common Core standards.


I found this blog spot from a few days ago quite interesting -- it's from a school board member in another state -- and those kids are having the same experiences we are in our district.

http://seligman4schools.blogspot.com/2013/11/comments-on-cpm-math-curriculum.html
Comments on the CPM Math Curriculum

By now you've likely heard about the parents who pulled their children out of Evergreen Middle School due to problems with the new CPM (College Prep Math) curriculum, newly adopted by our district this year in an attempt to comply with the Common Core standards. There have been a lot of newspaper articles on this recently, but I'd like to point out a few details that many of these articles are glossing over.

CPM is a radically new and different way of teaching math, not just a harder or more advanced curriculum. A CPM-based class spends the majority of its time with the students working in groups to discover the mathematical rules, rather than having them presented directly by the teacher. You can find many details at their website. In Hillsboro we have implemented it across the board, all at once, as essentially the only available type of math class in our middle schools-- with our only in-house piloting being a 2-week trail last year. So I'm not surprised that the new method of teaching math was a shock to many students and parents: they are not objecting to math being harder, but to it being fundamentally different. Was it a wise idea to make such a major change all at once district-wide?
CPM has been seen to create problems for students at the low end of the spectrum. For students who find the math more challenging, there is no substitute for careful explanation from a skilled teacher. Since the majority of the class is based on group work rather than direct instruction, some students are just not getting the straightforward teaching that would enable them to succeed. I"ve heard from some parents that groups aren't even allowed to ask the teacher a question until the group has voted on it or arrived at a consensus as to phrasing. Are some students pressured to just copy answers or pretend they understand so the group can move on, only to fail miserably when they have to work on individual assignments?

....

and it goes on to detail many more issues with it.

 

[tvguy]

If you search you can find the threads here on it, it has been controversial here.
Since I hadn't heard of it in my area, I just figured California wasn't impact, but I got a press release at work yesterday announcing a big "Celebration of Common Core" event, so apparently it isn't controversial here.
To be fair, I have read that it was pretty much in line with what California has been doing successfully for about 10 years, so it wouldn't be an issue here.

 

[Skywalker]

If you search you can find the threads here on it, it has been controversial here.

She doesn't have to search, she started them all lol.

 

[CaliBear]

She doesn't have to search, she started them all lol.

I was going to post the same thing. I like how the thread title makes it seem like this is a brand new topic that hasn't been brought up half a dozen times already, always by the same poster.

and, OP, learners discovering the rules through their own attempts has been around since the dawn of time. It's not "new" at all, and anyone who thinks it is should go take an introductory Philosophy class.

 

[aejammers]

You know, I don't understand all these schools having to radically change curriculums. My DS is in 7th grade. He is using a Math textbook that has been used at the school since at least 2002. He seems to be learning Math the way I would expect and the way I did back in the 80s.

I know our school district was already pretty well aligned with Common Core, so it seems you can meet the Core requirements without some fancy new curriculum.

 

[Janepod]

She doesn't have to search, she started them all lol.

 

[ILUVALASKA]

I teach in a private high school with a fairly rigorous curriculum. Ou math dept moved to a math pedagogy known as project based learning. The students work in groups to discover the what and why behind each type of problem. There are no textbooks. The teacher serves as a guide. We saw drops in math scores for the first few years, but now that we have used PBL for five years, the students are learning how to think and problem solve at a higher level of understanding.

 

[jodifla]

You know, I don't understand all these schools having to radically change curriculums. My DS is in 7th grade. He is using a Math textbook that has been used at the school since at least 2002. He seems to be learning Math the way I would expect and the way I did back in the 80s.

I know our school district was already pretty well aligned with Common Core, so it seems you can meet the Core requirements without some fancy new curriculum.

Problem is, you can't pass the tests apparently without these new curriculums. The problems in my son's textbook are the same in format as the ones I've seen on the standardized testing that most students are failing in places that have already started CC testing. They are pages-long word problems.

Our district also said it was very aligned with Common Core already, and if you look at the standards on paper, it was. But this CPM is totally a different way of doing math, and most students are floundering.

I was curious how other districts who were having success with the program were doing it. The only positive stats I see are from CPM itself.

 

[sam_gordon]

I teach in a private high school with a fairly rigorous curriculum. Ou math dept moved to a math pedagogy known as project based learning. The students work in groups to discover the what and why behind each type of problem. There are no textbooks. The teacher serves as a guide. We saw drops in math scores for the first few years, but now that we have used PBL for five years, the students are learning how to think and problem solve at a higher level of understanding.

The problem is there are parents who don't want to wait to see if changes "pan out". If students who had passed a test before take a new test under a new curriculum and fail, either the curriculum or the test is bad and must be scrapped. It appears "the ends justify the means" to these parents. As long as kids are passing the tests, it doesn't matter what they're learning.

I take that line of thinking and then wonder if we should give HS seniors 3rd grade tests. This way most of them will pass.

 

[jodifla]

The problem is, these tests are high stakes in many areas. They are tied to graduation.


The other problem is in studies I've seen, students who went through similar "group math" programs in high school ended up in remedial college math at much higher rates than those who went through traditional programs.

Here's a study by Stanford that details the programs with programs like these. Very revealing are the students' view of how unprepared the program left them for college and for life.


http://math.stanford.edu/~milgram/andover-report.html.

"We now record the responses to item 16 from a number of the students in the Andover Core Plus group.

"To start it is perhaps revealing to record the comments of the two Core Plus students at Andover who reported entering the work force directly after high school. The first of them says

"The math program was good and bad. It tried to apply math to real life - but it didn't make a great attempt. I live on my own in [....], use math in all my taxes and bank account things, and I learned all that outside of the math program."

and the second essentially echoes this but is even more emphatic:

"I am currently working and feel that I cannot even do basic math calculations. I am missing too many fundamentals."

Similarly, the comments of the two students who took calculus as their first college mathematics course are worth noting. The first comment is neutral, but does imply a real difference in level between the Core Plus classes and the calculus class in college:

"Calculus at [...] is not hard, but the TA's that teach it make it hard. Exams are extremely difficult.'"

On the other hand consider the comment of the second successful Core Plus student:

"Core Plus math stinks. It did not help me as much as other courses would have and should have."

It is also worth noting that two other Core Plus students took a calculus course during their first year, though they had to take a pre-calculus course first. Here are their comments:

"Even with having an excellent teacher and being self-motivated I felt unprepared. Core Plus needs to focus more on teaching BASIC skills before diving into application."

"Core Plus was useless. It helped me very little for college-level calculus."

It might have been noted in the previous discussion that 53 of the 67 respondents from the Core Plus group reported taking a math course during their first year of college. Three of the remaining Core Plus students reported not taking any mathematics at all during this year. Here are their comments:

"The reason I have not taken any math courses in college is because the math I learned in high school does not apply to college math. I used the TI-82 for linear programming and colleges do math by hand, which is very tedious. Colleges all need to change..."

"Because of the Core Plus program I am completely unprepared and have no way to understand college math. I have to take math [] (High School Math) - at [] this summer - equivalent to 1825 at MSU for no credit toward graduation in order to go forward into math courses at MSU. I have been extremely frustrated and disappointed with the �math� I took in High School."

"I'm not going to take any math courses in College because although I did well in High school math I feel I don't understand basic math concepts well enough to keep up in college."

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

Problem is, you can't pass the tests apparently without these new curriculums. The problems in my son's textbook are the same in format as the ones I've seen on the standardized testing that most students are failing in places that have already started CC testing. They are pages-long word problems.

Our district also said it was very aligned with Common Core already, and if you look at the standards on paper, it was. But this CPM is totally a different way of doing math, and most students are floundering.

I was curious how other districts who were having success with the program were doing it. The only positive stats I see are from CPM itself.

What makes you think the bolded is true? There are many Common Core aligned curricula out there to choose from.

 

[jodifla]

What makes you think the bolded is true? There are many Common Core aligned curricula out there to choose from.

Well, in places where kids are taking -- and failing -- these tests, the districts immediately run to these types of curriculum.

And when I look the sample questions from the national tests, they are very similar to the CPM questions I see in DS's textbooks.

 

[RitaE]

I've kind of skimmed through a couple of the other threads. I know I've heard our school talk about the Common Core for the past couple of years, but I really haven't noticed any changes in our curriculum or textbooks. We're using the same math program that has been used for several years.

I can tell you though that if our school was using a curriculum where a group of fellow 5th graders was "teaching" my son Math and my son wasn't allowed to even ask a question without first convening a committee and passing a resolution on the proper wording - I'd be all over that like white on rice too.

I might even be inspired to post a couple dozen threads on the DIS in between my bouts of extreme anger.

 

[aejammers]

Problem is, you can't pass the tests apparently without these new curriculums. The problems in my son's textbook are the same in format as the ones I've seen on the standardized testing that most students are failing in places that have already started CC testing. They are pages-long word problems.

Our district also said it was very aligned with Common Core already, and if you look at the standards on paper, it was. But this CPM is totally a different way of doing math, and most students are floundering.

I was curious how other districts who were having success with the program were doing it. The only positive stats I see are from CPM itself.

I can't find the individual scores for our Common Core tests (called Keystone exams here)--the results are grouped with our other state tests (called PSSAs) which are taken by the grades that didn't take the Keystone exams. But the cumulative Keystone/PSSA scores for the High School my son will attend were 90% proficient/advanced Math and 97% proficient/advanced Reading/Literature. So they are not failing and the district is not using new curriculums.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

Well, in places where kids are taking -- and failing -- these tests, the districts immediately run to these types of curriculum.

And when I look the sample questions from the national tests, they are very similar to the CPM questions I see in DS's textbooks.

Can you clarify what you mean by "these types of curriculum"? You have described your experience with 1 curriculum, which other curricula do you feel have the same issue?

I'm also curious what you mean when you say the sample problems for the new assessments that are being developed, are the same as what is in your child's textbook. You also describe the problems in CPM as multipage, and designed to be solved in a group. I'm most familiar with the PARCC, since that's what my state, and my kid's state plan on using. When I look at the PARCC sample problems for high school (which is where I thought your son was, please forgive me if I'm wrong), none of them are more than a page, and they're designed to be solved alone. Are you looking at the Smarter Balanced assessment?

 

[leebee]

I always wonder when real learning stops and we are just reinforcing incorrect concepts. Neurocognitive research is full of examples (and I don't have the references here with me at work) that once kids figure out something on their own and reinforce it (i.e., due to self-discovery and small group work) it's VERY difficult to convince them otherwise. SO, if they devise an incorrect decision-making process and lead themselves to the incorrect conclusions, how do you UNteach this?

My DH teaches chemistry at the University level. He is always astounded at the number of students who cannot handle the basic algebra needed for his class. These are the same students who swear that they got 'As' in calculus and statistics in high school. It's not ALL because of new math, but they are already struggling with math… how will all these CC math package programs, where the process is what's important and NOT the answer, make it any better?

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Problem is, you can't pass the tests apparently without these new curriculums.

If your school district believes they needed to throw out all of their curricula, then you need new administrators.

 

[jackilvsmath]

I teach CPM and I hate it.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

I always wonder when real learning stops and we are just reinforcing incorrect concepts. Neurocognitive research is full of examples (and I don't have the references here with me at work) that once kids figure out something on their own and reinforce it (i.e., due to self-discovery and small group work) it's VERY difficult to convince them otherwise. SO, if they devise an incorrect decision-making process and lead themselves to the incorrect conclusions, how do you UNteach this?

My DH teaches chemistry at the University level. He is always astounded at the number of students who cannot handle the basic algebra needed for his class. These are the same students who swear that they got 'As' in calculus and statistics in high school. It's not ALL because of new math, but they are already struggling with math… how will all these CC math package programs, where the process is what's important and NOT the answer, make it any better?

What you describe in the second parts of this post, that is students arriving at University having received high grades in high school, unable to remember or apply what they've learned in 9th or 10th grade, is one of the core problems that the CCSS is trying to address. By giving them more experiences understanding the underlying concepts before they memorize the algorithms, and more experience applying those concepts and algorithms to real world problems, they hope that students will be able to actually use what they learned in contexts such as Chemistry class.

Now, will it work? That remains to be seen. And is CPM the right curricula to help kids reach the new standards? Very debatable.

I should also note that "New Math" was a specific movement that has been dead for a long time, and that unless your DH is teaching 40 year olds what he sees is not "New Math", and that "new math" meaning CCSS is likely not the problem either. Very few districts have taught kids who are currently in college using CCSS. The districts that seem to have the smoothest roll outs started with younger grades and moved up. I know for my son's district this year is the first year that Algebra 1 classes have been aligned, next year will be geometry, etc . . . Some districts are a year or two ahead of that, but even this year's college freshman, if they took calc as seniors took Algebra 1 and 2 between 2008 and 2011. The Common Core standards weren't even published until 2010.

 

[Liberty Belle]

I've never heard of CPM math. Our kids here do Singapore Math/Math in Focus. It's more abstract and difficult than the "old way", but if a teacher understands it and teaches it well (big if, in my experience), it's very thorough and helpful.