White collar vs. blue collar?

[NotUrsula]

I don't think this is blue-collar vs. white-collar. I think this is the auto industry vs. the software industry. (Old vs. new, if you will.)

The programmer has a point about one thing: the car companies (and by extension, the dealerships) DO gouge prices on so-called "smart keys". Anyone who has ever worked with chips like that knows how cheap they are to produce, and that it only takes a couple of keystrokes to re-program the info on them. At most, the key and the labor to reprogram it is worth perhaps about $50. (That doesn't presume that the mechanic should work for nothing; it presumes that he can do this particular task in about 5 minutes, which he can.)

The programmer is also a self-important jerk, but that's not unique to his profession. I've known plenty of self-important mechanics in my time, too. (Guys who assumed that because I don't have a Y chromosome, I couldn't possibly understand anything mechanical.) This isn't about what color his collar is. To paraphrase MLK, it's about the content of his character.

FTR, I grew up in a blue-collar family, and I'm white-collar now. (Well, technically I'm pink-collar because I work in a majority-female profession, but that's a whole 'nother topic.)

 

[mrodgers]

I kind of find it funny that he writes code and the fob he lost probably contains a computer chip with code.

.... and is the entire reason that it cost ridiculous amount to replace said key.

I have no choice with my car. I would prefer just a plain old key that I can have cut for spares, but it is computer chipped and cost around $110 for a replacement I think. That's not even for a decent car, it's a POS Ford.

 

[gina2000]

I think that industries, in general, overcharge for services that are essential but relatively inexpensive to execute. I can understand the outrage but I also understand the cost involved to develop a product. Industry seeks to recoup research and development costs on items. Consumers see these items as inexpensive to produce and replace. The difference lies in the development cost.

I would be lying to you if I didn't admit to expressing outrage over the cost of every day items. I also admit, however, that these items wouldn't exist but for research and development.

 

[Robinrs]

I don't think this is blue-collar vs. white-collar. I think this is the auto industry vs. the software industry. (Old vs. new, if you will.)

 

[whogirl'smom]

I also think that what is blue collar and white collar is sometimes subjective. I say this in reference to the pp who stated her hair dresser had plenty of customers (blue collar); I don't see a hair dresser as blue collar.

This is a sore point with dh and me (mostly with him). We both have college degrees and worked in the human services field for many years. Even though you often make a pittance, he was perceived as white collar, b/c you have a desk, a title and wear a tie every day. Now we own our own business and he is very much looked at as "blue collar" b/c he does the grunt work right along with our employees (which he loves, by the way). When people at his former office and other offices have asked him why in the world he would leave a state job for "this" he just rolls his eyes. Well, most of the time--sometimes he smarts off and tells them how many times over he has increased his previous salary.

I don't think it's people's realization of the money made in certain professions; I think it's how they "view" certain professions, even if they're not very lucrative ones.

 

[NotUrsula]

I think that industries, in general, overcharge for services that are essential but relatively inexpensive to execute. I can understand the outrage but I also understand the cost involved to develop a product. Industry seeks to recoup research and development costs on items. Consumers see these items as inexpensive to produce and replace. The difference lies in the development cost.

I would be lying to you if I didn't admit to expressing outrage over the cost of every day items. I also admit, however, that these items wouldn't exist but for research and development.

Granted, but in the case of a "smart key" the real R&D cost to the auto industry is not in the RFID key, the development cost is in the ignition system of the car itself, so that it will recognize only the correct tag number and start properly. I've got no problem with paying extra for that technology in the car. I've also got no problem with paying more to replace a smart key than a conventional key, but not 4000% more, which is what you are talking about when a conventional key costs $5 and a smart key costs $200. (If the ignition system itself breaks down, then it is reasonable to say that it will cost more to replace it than it would to replace a conventional ignition system.)

I don't think that it is at all legitimate to charge more for a repair that is actually easier and faster to do with an electronic system than it is for a manual one, just because the electronic system has new associated development costs. You properly recoup R&D cost in the sale price of the product, not in a repair, which is a matter of time and materials cost only.

 

[rainydayplay]

When I graduated with a BA in English Literature, circumstance made me move back home with my family in a small town. The harder I tried to find a job, the more interviewers would give me a blank stare -- what do you do with an English degree? Aren't you supposed to teach? It didn't matter what I was interviewing for, either. I finally wound up with a job at Walmart -- no, not management, either. One of my teachers from high school saw me, asked me what I had done since graduating high school...then followed up my "graduating college" information with, "Well, what are you doing working here, then?"

Uh, it's a JOB, isn't it?

Even now, I work in a school (teaching, of course) that is 30 miles from my house. The kids ask...why do you teach here? Because when I needed a j-o-b, they offered one. It's been a good fit, and I'm not quite ready to even attempt to make the move closer to home. And I'm not moving.

Anywho...I think it's doing a disservice to kids to try to convince everyone of them they should go to college. Some of them won't make it in college, and they shouldn't be made to feel like they will be less successful or less of a person or whatever if they don't make it. We will always need people in the blue-collar, no-college-degree required positions, and some people are better suited -- and happier -- working at something that doesn't require going to college to get.

[Yes, I know... There are people who probably think I should be drug out into the street and shot for being a teacher and saying not all of my students should go to college. Personally, I wish they would bring back Home Ec. classes. Our students could use some Life Skills classes -- parenting, personal finance, etc.)

 

[LuvOrlando]

I don't think it was a white collar vs blue collar jab. It's just that your DH was the bearer of bad news so he was a target of a childish dig. There is a reason for the saying, "don't shoot the messenger" and the reason is because most people actually have an impulse to do just that, they like to lash out at whoever tells them what they don't want to hear. Think of all the hate mail weather reporters probably get, as if they can control the weather. The guy is a big baby. This doesn't mean he isn't a friend, it should mean your DH never offers him advice again though,people are so weird.

 

[daughtersrus]

Thanks for the replies. I think that part of the problem is that many people think that techs like my DH are overpaid since the dealership charges $139.00/hour. They seem to forget that the guys doing the work are only paid a percent of that. Journeymen at the dealer that DH works at are paid by book hour. Meaning if you're good, you can make more than 40 hours a week. For example, DH is very good at diagnosing electrical problems so he can get a job done faster than what most others can. This doesn't mean he's a thief. It means that he's not only getting paid for what he physically does, but for his experience and knowledge.

 

[busyshrew]

My DH is a hard core GEEK. He is a software developer. And we would NEVER think ourselves superior to any other person working any honest job. EVER.

Our mechanic is a highly skilled professional who is WORKING ON OUR CAR. THE THING WE DRIVE OUR DAUGHTER AROUND IN. Why on earth would we sneer about that? We EXPECT that skill should be properly (and highly) compensated.
Also- our mechanic is doing something my husband and I can't / won't / don't want and aren't equipped to do. We appreciate that.

Your neighbour? He's a jerk. He's not working hard enough at his own job if he's got time to spout off that type of nonsense.

 

[minkydog]

A friend of ours lost the key to his SUV along with the fob. He was talking to DH about the cost to replace them. DH is an auto tech at a dealership (different brand). DH told him what he thought it would be based on what the dealership that he works at would charge. The friend's comment was "You're a bunch of thieves" DH is upset about this. He's been in the business for over 25 years and is getting tired of people looking down on what he does. He may not have a Master's degree like our friend does but he is very good at what he does. DH's response to him was "what do you guys charge for what you do?" The friend laughed and said that what they do is important. (he works for a company that writes computer programs for the stock market and banking industry and makes over twice as much as DH). DH came back that what he does is important as well because if he couldn't fix the cars, the customers couldn't get to their important jobs.

I'm not sure if this is an indication of a what others think in general or just some rambling from someone upset that they have to spend a bit of money to fix a stupid mistake that he made. I'm leaning towards the later.

I'm thinking I'd have to reconsider this friendship. This guy has shown his true colors.

I don't understand why people look down their noses at non-degreed workers. You don't have to be a genius to be an auto mechanic, but you do have to understand some pretty technical stuff, knowledge and skills that most of us just don't have. I am very grateful for our heating & air guy, our plumber, our RV mechanics, and my dishwasher repairman. They make my life a lot easier and I couldn't care less whether they have a 1yr certificate or a Masters degree.

ETA: My brother never went to college but took a lot of electronics classes in the Navy. He has been self-employed for about 15 years as a boat mechanic, one of the best on the Outer Banks. He lives on the water in the OBX, keeps his boats tied up at his dock, and commutes to work in his 25ft cruiser. DBro is living his dream. He jokes that he doesn't even roll out of bed for less than $45/hour. But he takes his job very seriously because the LAST thing he wants is some guy to get stalled out on the Atlantic Ocean with his kids in the boat. He's one of the best and he gets paid for being just that.

 

[Val]

When I was in grad school my major professor sat us down and gave us a lecture on equality......that no PhD is any better than the custodian who empties the garbage and cleans the lab at night. Each has an important role to play, and unless we would like a world without "blue collar" to come and fix our toilets, fix our air conditioners and our cars and our windows and our.....well everything, then we better get our heads out of our behinds and begin to appreciate all the people who make it possible for us to do our research. With any luck, because of all the help we receive, maybe we could help find a new drug or understand a disease process. And if we did , we didn't do it alone, we did it as part of this extended TEAM.

I am hoping I am passing this on to MY grad students......as long as you do your job well you are worth it....but no better than the next guy, so get over it. My brother is a plumber....makes more than I will ever make. And he DESERVES it....crawling under houses and cleaning up PhD's attempts at plumbing....ugh! And i agree, the classes he took are the equivalent to a college degree.

Each person needs to find what they are good at and become trained to do it well. A master craftsman is just as good as a scientist.....just doing a different job. Without either, the world would come to a crashing halt, but maybe a little sooner without the craftsman.

 

[rainydayplay]

When I was in grad school my major professor sat us down and gave us a lecture on equality......that no PhD is any better than the custodian who empties the garbage and cleans the lab at night.

I think this is important. As a new teacher, most will tell you to make friends with the secretary and the custodian very fast and keep them on your side (and the lunch staff, too, if you eat in the lunchroom.) These are the people who can generally answer your questions, get things done for you, etc., and the last thing you want to do is upset them. (Believe me...we had a new teacher that came to our school from another in our district. She came in the middle of the year and was angry about it, so she yelled at the secretary. We needed someone to take a homeroom...she got it. Need someone to watch a class during 3rd block [her planning], she was called first. Every time. Secretary was in charge of getting these things done.)

I'm sure that applies to some extent in other professions as well. I try very hard to stop and tell these people how much they are appreciated. Please, thank you, and how are doing today.... very important words. (And, of course, in my building we LOVE our custodian! She's very dependable. We were lost without her before she came, and were totally torn when she had a stroke last year -- we needed her desperately, but were afraid of her coming back too soon and putting too much stress on herself.)

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

The friend is an idiot. Especially since he lost his car keys and has to get new ones while making such dumb statements.

There must be some reason he doesn't work on his car himself. I'm sure when his engine seizes due to lack of an oil change or something goes wrong, he'll maybe realize the importance of the work service techs do.

 

[bicker]

Anywho...I think it's doing a disservice to kids to try to convince everyone of them they should go to college. Some of them won't make it in college, and they shouldn't be made to feel like they will be less successful or less of a person or whatever if they don't make it. We will always need people in the blue-collar, no-college-degree required positions, and some people are better suited -- and happier -- working at something that doesn't require going to college to get.

I think, actually, that the end of what you've said here is not only (sadly) untrue, but the fact that it is untrue is one reason why so many people aim for college, even when it may not be appropriate, for the other reasons you've given. The reality is that as the world develops, and more and more countries transform from being effectively suppliers (of cheap raw materials and cheap menial labor) to the United States into marketplace competitors with the United States, there simply will be fewer and fewer good jobs in the United States. That impact will (has) attacked the blue-collar sector of the labor market first. The United States works very hard to try to keep its white-collar sector as healthy as possible, but does commensurately less to try to hold onto blue-collar jobs. Most folks say that we've "already" gone to a service economy, where so much of what keeps our people busy is providing services to each other, just moving the money around, rather then making new things from raw materials, i.e., adding new value into the system.

I was listening to NPR yesterday and someone was outlining how after each recession we've had over the last twenty years, the recovery we've had was progressively less successful than the last. So we have an economy down-turn, and then the recovery recovers less and less of what was lost. The use of the term "jobless recovery" has been far more applicable than in previous generations.

If it wasn't 5:45 in the morning, I'd need a stiff drink after typing this. It is sad news for us. However, it explains, very well, why some people seem so desperate in our society. It explains why some people work overhard to get a job (see separate thread), and it explains why so many people try to get college educations to better secure their financial future. Their desperation is valid and worthy of respect, given the facts of the situation.

 

[DisneyFed]

$139.00 an hour.....man, I pay my boat mechanic $150.00 an hour and he's worth EVERY PENNY. Anyone who doesn't think some of these mechanics are smart (or "worth it") hasn't taken a look under the hood of a new car.

No way I go anywhere near that thing with a wrench---no WAY!! Don't even get me started on my boat engine...may as well be Alien Technology to me.

I have what I call the "idiot rule"....I don't let idiots go near my stuff---and those idiots INCLUDE me!!! I have found it much cheaper and much easier to let the pros fix my stuff first, rather than me try and then have to pay them to fix what I hosed up and what was initially wrong in the first place!!!

My dad has a PhD in Chemical Engineering. Director of Research for a huge company---has always thought he could fix things himself, and was always "proud" when he was done. When he went to work, Mom called and had someone who knew what they were doing come fix all that he screwed up...since she did the finances, he never found out

If you need a crime investigated or a tactical operation, I'm your guy....if you need to install a new program on your computer---call someone else, I'll stand around and watch--and your computer will be much safer

 

[PaulaSB12]

When I was in grad school my major professor sat us down and gave us a lecture on equality......that no PhD is any better than the custodian who empties the garbage and cleans the lab at night. Each has an important role to play, and unless we would like a world without "blue collar" to come and fix our toilets, fix our air conditioners and our cars and our windows and our.....well everything, then we better get our heads out of our behinds and begin to appreciate all the people who make it possible for us to do our research. With any luck, because of all the help we receive, maybe we could help find a new drug or understand a disease process. And if we did , we didn't do it alone, we did it as part of this extended TEAM.

I am hoping I am passing this on to MY grad students......as long as you do your job well you are worth it....but no better than the next guy, so get over it. My brother is a plumber....makes more than I will ever make. And he DESERVES it....crawling under houses and cleaning up PhD's attempts at plumbing....ugh! And i agree, the classes he took are the equivalent to a college degree.

Each person needs to find what they are good at and become trained to do it well. A master craftsman is just as good as a scientist.....just doing a different job. Without either, the world would come to a crashing halt, but maybe a little sooner without the craftsman.

I love this, I have had people asking me when they find I work in a cereal factory when I am getting a "proper" job. Makes me laugh as I know I am on better money. I could get an office job earning £14,000 a year but I won't because quite frankly I couldn't afford the £20,000 pay cut. If you are going to be snobby you really have to be careful though. I lived up north for a while and had a friend who was a security guard at a lancashire university. One of the female lecturers was known for treating security staff with contempt. She was caught one day having sex with one of her male students, unfortunatly for her she was in one of the rooms with security cameras and her whole "entertainment" was caught on cctv so of course all the security men saw and got copies of that tape (I know it was probably illegal but still ) she was oh so polite to them after that incident.

 

[kaytieeldr]

The friend laughed and said that what they do is important. (he works for a company that writes computer programs for the stock market and banking industry and makes over twice as much as DH).

And yet, without auto techs, the "friend" can't drive his car

 

[Kimberly]

A friend of ours lost the key to his SUV along with the fob. He was talking to DH about the cost to replace them. DH is an auto tech at a dealership (different brand). DH told him what he thought it would be based on what the dealership that he works at would charge. The friend's comment was "You're a bunch of thieves" DH is upset about this. He's been in the business for over 25 years and is getting tired of people looking down on what he does. He may not have a Master's degree like our friend does but he is very good at what he does. DH's response to him was "what do you guys charge for what you do?" The friend laughed and said that what they do is important. (he works for a company that writes computer programs for the stock market and banking industry and makes over twice as much as DH). DH came back that what he does is important as well because if he couldn't fix the cars, the customers couldn't get to their important jobs.

I'm not sure if this is an indication of a what others think in general or just some rambling from someone upset that they have to spend a bit of money to fix a stupid mistake that he made. I'm leaning towards the later.

If this were my friend telling this to me, I'd probably break off contact with this person. I've met enough people in my life to not surround myself with people like this, and since he feels stupid about this situation, he's obviously trying to exert some level of superiority over your husband. Seems extremely insecure, and I'd ask him to ether program his own new key fob or find someone else who would.

 

[indimom]

People often speak before they think (myself included). And the value of a job is in the eye of the beholder. I have family members who I love who have made comments about my job, things like how many soap operas do I watch during the day?, clearly NOT getting that I actually work for a living.
I work in a profession that is routinely slammed for the prices charged but where employees routinely make little more than minimum wage. And its a profession that if people took the time to think about it would be considered extremely valuable since we care for their most priceless possesion - their children.
But people are thoughtless, busy, caught up in their own lives, stuck in their past conventions, and they just don't consider what spills out of their mouths.
The aunt who asked about "my soaps" hurt me at the time, but clearly doesn't know that I spend over 60 hours a week in my home: educating, washing, dressing, cleaning, changing, feeding, intervening, repeating, tracking income and expenses, teaching, redirecting, calming, cuddling, soothing, outthinking, feeding, overplanning, intervening, encouraging, consoling, playing, cleaning, changing, disinfecting, training, dressing, educating, bouncing, bandaging, dancing, entertaining, updating training, billing, scheduling, menu planning, paper trailing, medicating, feeding, observing, cleaning, bleaching, redirecting, changing, rewarding, double checking, intervening, guiding, encouraging, entertaining, fire drilling, educating parents, cooking, cleaning, educating, intervening again, mopping, diagnosing, medicating, updating/informing parents, and on and on and on...for up to 15 children at a time. And the parents of every last one of them trully expect their childs' needs and safety to come first.
Television? Are you kidding me???
And I have most likely been thoughtless about the amount of work/stress/time that goes into the computer programer or auto mechanic's job description. Tell your hubby not to take thoughtless comments too seriously, it's hard to comprehend (even for the ubber intelegent) unless you've walked a mile in someone's shoes.

P.S. I really do love my job, (most of the time) lol.