Whiney letter that I'm sending to WDW about access...

[BrerMom]

If they do call you, mention The Land as needing help, too. We don't even have to deal with a wheelchair, but we sure felt for the people that did. We were there in June and noticed the insanely long line to use the elevator. The only way to get upstairs is by stairs or escalator - or the elevator that holds one wheelchair/ECV at a time.

 

[MightyMom]

Thanks for the comments guys. I always feel like I should not complain and be happy with whatever access I can get. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who sometimes feels Disney could do better.

I hope when my son grows up he has your same outlook. I'm afraid being disabled at such a young age will leave him jaded. We love WDW for the same reasons you do, it's the ONLY completely accessible place we've ever been. I kid you not, but when we got home after our first trip I couldn't stop talking about the ramps and accessibility. I was shocked that we never had to "look" for a ramp or drag my DS chair up a curb. I know that's a little thing.... but it's a pet peeve of mine.

I thought your letter was great. Very direct and to the point.....and not whiney at all. Is there a disabled Imagineer?? I think it would do Disney well to hire someone who is differently-abeled...... I can almost guarantee things would be different on some rides.

Instead of waiting in long lines for an accessible ride vehicle, we've often carried our son into a regular vehicle. He's 8 years old and getting REALLY heavy.... I'm not sure how long we'll be able to do that. You're letter made me think about these issues a little more.

 

[LindsayDunn228]

I hope when my son grows up he has your same outlook. I'm afraid being disabled at such a young age will leave him jaded.

Meh, I wouldn't worry about that. I've been injured since age 6 and I don't feel jaded

 

[Michigan]

I hope when my son grows up he has your same outlook. I'm afraid being disabled at such a young age will leave him jaded.

My kids have been disabled since birth but they have been raised with the if you want it you can do it and don't use your disability as an excuss attitude.

You should have seen the look on the girls faces when my oldest rolled up in her wheelchair to try out for the Varsity Girls Swim Team at her high school 4 years ago. They didn't even know people without use of their legs could swim. She has opened the doors for other disabled students but unlike her they quit when they thought it was to hard. Everything has been hard as far as she is concerned so she just kept on going and now she is a senior and still on the team.

 

[OneLittleSpark]

Great letter Bill! And no, it isn't whiney to point out the little problems in a place that has no big ones. We all want Disney to be perfect! I think all companies should see letters of complaint as a positive thing: people will only write in to complain when they feel strongly about something - if you didn't care about Disney, you wouldn't have bothered writing to them.

The problem with the safari isn't that they don't have enough accessible vehicles, the problem is that they only run a few of them to the wheelchair boarding platform. We've just got back from a trip, and when we went on the safari they were only running two accessible cars to the wheelchair stop, but plenty were going to the normal loading bays and pulling away with the chair spot empty (if this doesn't make sense, please blame the jetlag and make up a meaning).

Is there a disabled Imagineer?? I think it would do Disney well to hire someone who is differently-abeled...... I can almost guarantee things would be different on some rides.

I know they have a focus group called Cast-Able, aimed at Disney employees who's lives are touched by a disability (whether there's or someone else's). I didn't meet anyone on wheels when I was out at Imagineering in July, but that doesn't mean there wasn't anyone. Well, hopefully they'll hire me soon, then I can fix every little problem !

 

[LindsayDunn228]

I know they have a focus group called Cast-Able, aimed at Disney employees who's lives are touched by a disability (whether there's or someone else's). I didn't meet anyone on wheels when I was out at Imagineering in July, but that doesn't mean there wasn't anyone. Well, hopefully they'll hire me soon, then I can fix every little problem !

Ok, color me jaded. It really chafes my rear that most jobs/communities/etc. pertaining to those with disabilities have to have some cheesy name or title. Cast-Able, DisABILITIES, etc. It's really not necessary to put such a blatant label on them.

Anyway.......

 

[madenon]

Yep, the Land is a possible problem. I've had the elevator break down (with me not in it yet, luckily) and that gave a LOT of problems for them to sort out some way of guiding all those "rolling in" through the emergency exits etc. If I add that up with the small size of the elevator itself and there only being one, that's just a bottleneck with a capital B.

Another one; the silly jungle cruise thing (or whatever it is called), next to POTC. People were walking up, cm's more or less dragging people in while I waited about 15 minutes for the accessible boat to come round. And I was the one and only person in line waiting for that boat (and no disabled on it either when it did come round).

The way that accessible boat is made for that ride makes me think it shouldn't be a problem to have more accessible boats. If there are no people needing the ramp, they can easily fill it with those who don't need a ramp. It hardly takes any seating space away, so it wouldn't effect the waitingtime for the ride bigtime if they added some accessible boats.

I also second the long wait for the Safari. Again; people walking right on and me waiting for about 20 minutes. No problems with shows except Tikiroom. It was again; people walking on and me being told to wait for the next show.

I read someone talking about Beaty and the Beats having 2 disabled sections and the one in front being for those who can transfer. Maybe the rules have changed recently but this wasn't my experience with regards to when you are allowed to sit in the front section. When I was there, I was right there in the front, so much so I could literally touch Belle. CM's incouraged me to go there, fully knowing I don't do transfers for shows. I wasn't the only one using a wc and not transferring either. (got some great pics from that show and got to go backstage to meet Belle, combine that with the great seats and I definately got a soft spot for this show)

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

It is a very well written letter!

Another area in need of improvement especially at busy times is the bus system in general. Perhaps they can have busses that can hold more, I don't know. But we witnessed on a busy night a long line of wheelchairs at one spot. Everyone was heading back to EPCOT for illuminations. Bus line was long and we theoretically had ample time to make the journey even with the long lines. But since the busses only hold 2 wheelchairs in a secure position--I can see that folks who planned on 60-90 minutes for their journey...probably had about a 120-150 minute journey. A bit excessive even for a Disney bus.

I felt bad for those folks. I don't know what they could do except maybe have more coordination of their bussing system. But it needs an overhaul anyway.

 

[SueM in MN]

I haven't had time to respond to this thread yet - although I have been reading it since it began.

I agree with everyone else that it is a well thought out and well written letter.

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT:
Cheshire Figment and I would appreciate if people keep this thread on subject and not let it go off on tangents.
I think there is a lot of good information on here that will be helpful to Bill when he does get called by WDW. If it gets off on tangents, it will be harder to sort out the useful stuff.

As my contributions, I can add 2 things (well, 3 depending on how they are counted).

The first time we went to AK was before it was actually open - we went to a preview. I can't remember if it was for DVC members or for AP holders or for resort guests. At any rate, it wasn't open yet.
When we went on the Safari, I am quite certain that the wheelchair loading was at the 'regular' loading site. They had a portable ramp and wheelchair users did not get off at the same place at the end of the ride as the other riders did; they stayed on until the tram got back to the boarding area. Even though this would work for us because DD has to stay in her wheelchair, the sheer number of ECVs and wheelchairs parked at the current handicapped boarding area tell me this would not work anymore without some alterations to the area to allow for parking.
Our longest wait for the accessible Safari tram was 40 minutes at a time when the wait for the 'regular' tram was posted as 5 minutes and we could actually watch trams pull away part empty since people were not walking in fast enough. Meanwhile, in the handicapped line, we extended out of the waiting area and people were pleading with the CMs to let them abandon their ECVs and join the other line.

Here is a link to the guide to the ADA guidelines for Amusement Parks and Amusement Park rides.
Here's what it says about numbers:
Each newly constructed or newly designed amusement ride must provide at least one wheelchair space, or at least one ride seat designed for transfer, or a transfer device designed to transfer a person using a wheelchair from the load and unload area to a ride seat. The choice of which type of access that is provided for each ride is left up to the operator or designer.

Where possible, operators are encouraged to exceed the number of accessible ride seats so that more people with disabilities and their families can enjoy the rides at the same time.

 

[BroganMc]

The problem with comparing ADA laws and capacities outside of WDW is that once you go to WDW it's totally different then the regular world. WDW involves much more walking then most people do at home therefore people who would never dream of using a wheelchair/ECV to go to the movies use a wheelchair/ECV at WDW. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be doing this, if you need a wheelchair/ECV please get one. However Disney needs to understand that wheelchair/ECV use will be much higher at WDW then it is for normal places. I rarely run into another wheelchair/ECV user at my local movie theaters but at WDW all you have to do is turn around and you're bound to see a wheelchair/ECV user in sight. Disney should be planning wheelchair/ECV capacity based on the percentage of people who use wheelchairs/ECVs at WDW and add a cushion for extra measure.

In that case, it falls to the temporary ECV user to be considerate of those patrons who cannot transfer. My dad uses an ECV in Disney World. It's the only place he uses one in the world, specifically for the reasons you stated. But he's also intensely aware of the needs for full time wheelies like me. (I can manage around 10-20 feet of walking, 5 minutes of standing and then I'm on the road to being bedridden for the day.)

So when we go to attractions like the shows, he always parks his ECV by the stroller parking and walks in with me. He may have to walk 30-50 feet to pick up his ECV but it's never more than a trip from the car to movie theatre at home. And in situations like fireworks and parade shows, he'll go the wheelchair area with me but parks in the back so as not to take up a wheelchair space.

 

[SueM in MN]

I read someone talking about Beaty and the Beats having 2 disabled sections and the one in front being for those who can transfer. Maybe the rules have changed recently but this wasn't my experience with regards to when you are allowed to sit in the front section. When I was there, I was right there in the front, so much so I could literally touch Belle. CM's incouraged me to go there, fully knowing I don't do transfers for shows. I wasn't the only one using a wc and not transferring either. (got some great pics from that show and got to go backstage to meet Belle, combine that with the great seats and I definately got a soft spot for this show)

My DD can't transfer and we usually sit in the front if there are still seats there when we arrive. It has been that way since the first time we went to the show in its current location (it used to be in a fully outdoor theater at another spot). We sat there on our last trip in April and the area was mostly people who could not/did not transfer.
On our last trip, some people arrived into that area after all the wheelchair parking spots were filled. Those people did transfer to a seat and the wheelchair/ECV was moved off to the side. If that happened to someone, they may have come to the erroneos conclusion that you had to transfer to sit there.

The 2 problems with going to the front sections are that the ramp to get down there is rather steep and there are several switch backs (sharp turns) as you go up and down. We have seen people in rental ECVs having a difficult time negatiating those turns. So, the CMs may encourage people in park rental ECVs to sit at the top.

 

[BroganMc]

The 2 problems with going to the front sections are that the ramp to get down there is rather steep and there are several switch backs (sharp turns) as you go up and down.

I call that my obstacle course. It's so fun to drive it fast (with an open pathway of course). But you need a vehicle that handles well and has a small turning radius. The entry queue to Living Seas is like that only more fun since you go from bright sunlight to near pitch black. In the days of the old entry movie when the doors opened and closed ever few minutes it was hysterically fun. All those people, unexpectedly blinded by sunglasses trying to make it before the doors closed.

I too always sit in the front, in my wheelchair. You need to arrive some 15-20 minutes before the show starts but you get fantastic seats and you see the pre-show act in all their glory. The Beast always manages to blow me a kiss during his final bows. The Cast is super nice to all those enthusiastically cheering gimps in the front row.

 

[dclfun]

I think the letter is great, Bill! I've seen some upcoming issues that I'm concerned about too, but it involves the resorts. Lately I've had trouble getting an accessible room with roll in shower at the resort of my choice. I have to wonder if too many people are requesting them that don't truly need them or due to the issue of accomodations for party size ( that I detest every time someone mentions the "comp" room on this message board ) just so they can get more space, or if truly there are so many more disabled guests travelling that need a roll in shower. There are many people who, as you mentioned, really need an ECV to get around WDW when they don't normally use one at home, who also then feel that they need an accessible resort room. It's not their fault in this case but rather a misperception. It then takes a room out of inventory that's truly needed by a disabled guest who cannot travel w/o an accessible room/roll-in shower. As to the attractions, I have often experienced an extremely long wait time at KS and waited through two shows at the Tiki Room. At the Tiki room there is no place to wait in the shade which makes it extremely difficult, plus I didn't appreciate all the "stares" as guests filed by in the regular line while I waited out in the sun to even enter the queue line. I hope your letter gets results. It was accurate, heartfelt, and to-the-point. Now I have to think about writing that letter regarding my experience at WL....I'm not as good as you!---Kathy

 

[Schmeck]

Here is a link to the guide to the ADA guidelines for Amusement Parks and Amusement Park rides.
Here's what it says about numbers:
Each newly constructed or newly designed amusement ride must provide at least one wheelchair space, or at least one ride seat designed for transfer, or a transfer device designed to transfer a person using a wheelchair from the load and unload area to a ride seat. The choice of which type of access that is provided for each ride is left up to the operator or designer.

Where possible, operators are encouraged to exceed the number of accessible ride seats so that more people with disabilities and their families can enjoy the rides at the same time.

Sue, thank you for taking the time to find and post this info! While I think there should be a higher ratio of accessible vehicles to nonaccessible (like every 10th one, or even more for the larger capacity types like KS and JC) then you have the evacuation policy to take into account - how many occupied vehicles can they have in one loop?

 

[SueM in MN]

I think the letter is great, Bill! I've seen some upcoming issues that I'm concerned about too, but it involves the resorts. Lately I've had trouble getting an accessible room with roll in shower at the resort of my choice. I have to wonder if too many people are requesting them that don't truly need them or due to the issue of accomodations for party size ( that I detest every time someone mentions the "comp" room on this message board ) just so they can get more space, or if truly there are so many more disabled guests travelling that need a roll in shower. There are many people who, as you mentioned, really need an ECV to get around WDW when they don't normally use one at home, who also then feel that they need an accessible resort room. It's not their fault in this case but rather a misperception. It then takes a room out of inventory that's truly needed by a disabled guest who cannot travel w/o an accessible room/roll-in shower.

I think this is a good subject matter too and deserves its own thread, so I am going to copy this part of your post and make a new thread.

 

[SueM in MN]

Sue, thank you for taking the time to find and post this info! While I think there should be a higher ratio of accessible vehicles to nonaccessible (like every 10th one, or even more for the larger capacity types like KS and JC) then you have the evacuation policy to take into account - how many occupied vehicles can they have in one loop?

I do think that evacuation is a part of it - especially for attractions like KS and JC where it would be difficult to evacuate someone who needed the ramp at KS or the lift thing in the JC boats to get in. There may be a limit to the number of guests who need a great deal of assistance to be evacuated who can be on one loop. In that case though, it doesn't really make much sense to fill a whole vehicle with people who have some type of disability. Some of those who get out of wheelchairs or ECVs have a difficult job of climbing aboard under the best circumstances of the loading area. They would need a lot more assistance in an emergency evacuation.

I also know that some of the rides have a 'fire' limit on the number of people who would need to be evacuated in an emergency. We've been coming to WDW for about 18 yrs with a wheelchair (DD was less than 3 when she got her first one). In the 'old days' (saying that makes me feel really old), there were many more CMs assigned to each attraction and there was often one in the handicapped waiting area while we waited to get on. I know that in Spaceship Earth for example, they can only load another guest who would need assistance in evacuation after the guest before them has gotten past a particular point in the attraction. There are not enough CMs around any more to inform you of things like that, but I'm quite sure that there is a specific number for each attraction.

For something like Lights, Motors, Action , I am somewhat nervous that so many people are in an area where they had to take an elevator to get to. I'm much more comfortable being at ground level.

Bill (and I think several others) mentioned American Adventure. In the old days, there were many less wheelchair spots and then there was room for the whole party to sit on seats with them. WDW removed a lot of the seats to make more room for wheelchairs/ECVs. We have seldom been in there when all the spots were filled, but we have been there when someone stopped in the middle wheelchair spot and no one else could get around them. There used to be a CM inside who directed the wheelchair guests and there used to be a CM who was more or less assigned to getting wheelchairs 'delivered' to the second floor to be ready to go in. Under those circumstances, they could bring people up the elevator even after the whole crowd was filing in.
When we have gone to American Adventure without DD and have been waiting to go up the stairs/escalator, we have told a number of people in wheelchairs that they could not enter that way because of the stairs (which are hidden from view until they start 'loading' for the show). We point them toward the elevator. Most of them believe us, but there have been times when people didn't want to believe 'just another guest' and waited until the doors opened and they actually saw the stairs or a CM spotted them. IF that attraction has to have a time limit on when guests with wheelchairs arrive, it needs to be better signed. We know about it and have had the experience of arriving after the 'time frame' closed.

 

[shovan]

Here is a link to the guide to the ADA guidelines for Amusement Parks and Amusement Park rides.
Here's what it says about numbers:
Each newly constructed or newly designed amusement ride must provide at least one wheelchair space, or at least one ride seat designed for transfer, or a transfer device designed to transfer a person using a wheelchair from the load and unload area to a ride seat. The choice of which type of access that is provided for each ride is left up to the operator or designer.

Where possible, operators are encouraged to exceed the number of accessible ride seats so that more people with disabilities and their families can enjoy the rides at the same time.

Sue, Thanks for providing the link to ADAAG on the rides!

What disturbs us the most about this is that even though Disney Imagineers were involved in the development of the guidelines, WDW fails to meet these basic guidelines in some areas. As anyone ever had a transfer board offered to them for transfer to a ride? I know we haven't. How many times have we been told that my DH must transfer from the ECV to the rides manual chair,(which is often no where to be found) & then onto the ride.

On Soarin, I didn't see any evidence in the design to make it more accessible. The area around the seats had a lot of room so while I was able to manage to lift my DH to standing & then seat him, if the side rail on the seat were able to swing back, transfer would have been much easier. We were only able to to that when he was having a good day, most of the time he probably won't be able to ride. So even though this is a new ride I didn't really see anything that made it more accessible.

Since I don't want to go off topic, I'll just provide the link to swimming pool accessibility which we've had problems with and feel that Disney resorts is not meeting the ADAAG on that either.

http://www.access-board.gov/recreation/guides/pools.htm

While I do agree that WDW is the most accessible place in the World, our reason for visiting over & over, there are many areas that can be improved & if there is anyone who has the capabilites to do so it's Disney Imagineers.

 

[Juliah]

Bill, thank you for writing such a great letter! You did a wonderful job explaining that there is much good about access at WDW, yet room for improvement.

I would like to second what was posted about Soarin'. We happened to board right behind a woman using a wheelchair and her teenaged daughter. The woman tried to use a transfer board but couldn't manage it because of the way the seats were set up. She had to leave, but her daughter stayed and rode. The daughter told me how sad she was because it was the ride her mom most wanted to experience. I thought at the time it was crazy that Disney hadn't done flip-up arm rests at the ends of the rows of seats, which would have allowed the woman to get the transfer board situated where she needed it.

We were able to transfer both of our DDs onto Soarin', but it would have been so much easier if it had been to end-of-the-row seats (with or without flip-up arm rests). We had talked to the cast members before boarding about how we would transfer DDs, and they explained that after DDs were seated, we would need to drive the their power chairs around to the end of the seats out of the way. It would seem a readily achievable accommodation to usher a person in a wheelchair to the end of the row so you wouldn't have to move the wheelchair--or at least not so far. By the time we got the girls transferred, moved their chairs, and got back to our seats and got belted in ourselves, it was really pushing the envelope for when the ride was supposed to start. Likewise, when the ride was over, because we had to go round the chairs up, people were already coming in for the next ride as we were pulling the chairs around, which just confused everyone trying to come down the row.

We have had the same problems with the Safari. I just want to add that because we have to transfer one of the girls (since there is only wheelchair spot), and they move her chair while we are on the ride, it is sometimes difficult to find her chair when we get back and even more difficult to carry her to her chair because there are so many chairs and ECVs on the platform. I don't know the solution to this, but I think Sue made a very good point about staffing; if they had another person working the platform, that CM could bring the chair back to where he or she found it when the vehicle was about to return (or at least upon request).

I think increased staffing on a variety of attractions might do a lot to help people sort out where they need to go, whether it is feasible for someone who can transfer to park their chair and leave more spots for those who can't, and so on.

 

[lovedcookie]

Thanks for posting/sending this Bill! DFi and I haven't been to WDW yet, but your letter is Very well written, and you (as well as others who have replied to your post) have mentioned several of the things DFi and I were curious about, such as, "will he and I have to wait for rides because the number wheelchair-accessible vehicles is very very small compared to standard seats?"
Anyway, its a great letter and I hope you will post about what happens when Disney responds to your note.
Erica

 

[dclfun]

I also wanted to add about the "Soarin" attraction. While I realize that the special effects are enhanced by the seating/movement, why was there no provision made for someone who cannot transfer to remain in their chair in the middle, for instance, to view the movie? I will never get to experience this attraction because I can't transfer. In "Alien Encounter" for instance, although I also cannot experience the special effects, I am able to remain in my chair merely to enjoy ( or not, in the case of this attraction) the rest of the show and accompany my family. There are so many rides that cannot be modified, but this one seemed like a simple enough solution could have been found for guests who cannot transfer to at least enjoy "something" . ---Kathy