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(When) will DVC go “negative”?

Cfabar1

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Dec 19, 2020
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Looking at another resort yesterday, I was comparing cash rates to the maintenance fees I would need to pay if I owned there and bought a resale contract very inexpensively. This one was at Hyatt, but I have seen this phenomenon sometimes with say the Orlando properties of Sheraton.

What occurred was, a restricted rate compared favorably to the maintenance fees, it was perhaps $200 cheaper than the fees. A less restrictive rate meant I was paying about $200 over the maintenance fees, but wouldn’t have to pay the few thousand dollars to acquire the week via resale.

It made me think, will DVC ever “go negative” like this - where the dues are more expensive than just renting the week?

Are some of the older properties like HHI and VB already there with weekend rates? Would OKW be the first to get there at WDW - especially with a discount/BB/etc.?

If it went negative, I presume resale would have no value - but maybe certain resorts would maintain their value better than others - and you’d still get to be an owner at Disney which is kind of cool.
 
First: Yes, such individual timeshare ownerships exist. They usually have several of the following characteristics: They are highly seasonal weeks-based resorts, they are in over-built locations with too much supply relative to demand, they do not have name-brand pricing power, they are older.

In general, if a resort's annual costs to operate exceed the effective rental rate for the year, the resort is a death spiral waiting to happen. Over time, owners will default, and the foreclosed inventory goes into the resort's rental pool. But the rental pool cannot recoup costs, driving those costs up for the remaining owners, which causes more of them to default. Rinse and repeat.

There is a quaint little resort directly on the water on Maui's western shore that is in this situation. It's a shame. We've stayed there on an exchagne in the past, and while it is not at all luxurious, the location is great. But the owership fees are north of $3,500 at this point, while a week's rental in early August (pretty much peak time for Hawaii, per Interval's TDI) is about $3,000 even, with a 14-day cancellation window. Some of that might still be a hangover from the Lahaina fires, but still. Something like half of that $3,500 is bad debt---weeks that do not generate MF payments that cannot be offset by rentals.

Highly seasonal weeks-based resorts are a bit of a corner case. In those, there is a relatively small number of weeks where rental rates are significantly higher than costs, but the off- and shoulder-season weeks have rental rates at or below costs. The problem with these resorts is that every week pays the same in fees, but different weeks have wildly different values. Such resorts can continue if there are enough "prime" weeks to keep it afloat. A few sell weeks only in packages that mix prime weeks with others. For example, many resorts in Northern Michigan sell summer weeks but only when bundled with one or two others during the calendar year.

The other way out for these resorts is to convert to a points-based system, where prime weeks require more points, but once the weeks are sold the horse is out of the barn. Prime weeks owners rarely convert, so the only way to make it work is to bundle it together with other things to lower the average per-point cost. That's been Wyndham's strategy to preserve some of its older seasonal resorts, but even that has its limits---they are divesting all or part of about a dozen different resorts this year for exactly this reason.

Orlando has a surprising number of resorts that are underwater, including some name brands. This is partly because it is one of hte most overbuilt areas for timeshares anywhere on the planet. There are a few others---Las Vegas and Williamsburg both come to mind---but Orlando is easily the worst offender. That's partly becuase you build resorts where (a) there are a lot of people on vacaiton and (b) the land is cheap.

Underwater weeks can still have some value. If fees are still low enough, they can work as traders into higher-fee weeks. This is the saving grace for a lot of Orlando Marriott weeks. There might be some event weeks that still deliver decent value that are fully booked by owners. And so on.

Disney has several things that most others do not--a fully-functional Reality Distortion Field, local control of lodging capacity, and an incnetive to keep rental rates high*. So, it is unlikely that Disney's prevailing rental rates for any resorts associated with the theme parks will drop below the goosed-up operating costs that the owners pay. That's less clear for VB, HHI, or even Aulani, all of which are built in second-tier locations coupled with high operating costs. But, there are various black swan events that could change that. For example, if for some reason air travel became significantly and structurally more expensive, that is big trouble for WDW.

------
Vidanta has locations with similar properties, especially in Nuevo Vallarta and Riviera Maya. We used a bonus week at Neuvo a few years ago, and it was *lovely*. So, despite being quite seasonal, owning can still make sense there.
 
First: Yes, such individual timeshare ownerships exist. They usually have several of the following characteristics: They are highly seasonal weeks-based resorts, they are in over-built locations with too much supply relative to demand, they do not have name-brand pricing power, they are older.

In general, if a resort's annual costs to operate exceed the effective rental rate for the year, the resort is a death spiral waiting to happen. Over time, owners will default, and the foreclosed inventory goes into the resort's rental pool. But the rental pool cannot recoup costs, driving those costs up for the remaining owners, which causes more of them to default. Rinse and repeat.

There is a quaint little resort directly on the water on Maui's western shore that is in this situation. It's a shame. We've stayed there on an exchagne in the past, and while it is not at all luxurious, the location is great. But the owership fees are north of $3,500 at this point, while a week's rental in early August (pretty much peak time for Hawaii, per Interval's TDI) is about $3,000 even, with a 14-day cancellation window. Some of that might still be a hangover from the Lahaina fires, but still. Something like half of that $3,500 is bad debt---weeks that do not generate MF payments that cannot be offset by rentals.

Highly seasonal weeks-based resorts are a bit of a corner case. In those, there is a relatively small number of weeks where rental rates are significantly higher than costs, but the off- and shoulder-season weeks have rental rates at or below costs. The problem with these resorts is that every week pays the same in fees, but different weeks have wildly different values. Such resorts can continue if there are enough "prime" weeks to keep it afloat. A few sell weeks only in packages that mix prime weeks with others. For example, many resorts in Northern Michigan sell summer weeks but only when bundled with one or two others during the calendar year.

The other way out for these resorts is to convert to a points-based system, where prime weeks require more points, but once the weeks are sold the horse is out of the barn. Prime weeks owners rarely convert, so the only way to make it work is to bundle it together with other things to lower the average per-point cost. That's been Wyndham's strategy to preserve some of its older seasonal resorts, but even that has its limits---they are divesting all or part of about a dozen different resorts this year for exactly this reason.

Orlando has a surprising number of resorts that are underwater, including some name brands. This is partly because it is one of hte most overbuilt areas for timeshares anywhere on the planet. There are a few others---Las Vegas and Williamsburg both come to mind---but Orlando is easily the worst offender. That's partly becuase you build resorts where (a) there are a lot of people on vacaiton and (b) the land is cheap.

Underwater weeks can still have some value. If fees are still low enough, they can work as traders into higher-fee weeks. This is the saving grace for a lot of Orlando Marriott weeks. There might be some event weeks that still deliver decent value that are fully booked by owners. And so on.

Disney has several things that most others do not--a fully-functional Reality Distortion Field, local control of lodging capacity, and an incnetive to keep rental rates high*. So, it is unlikely that Disney's prevailing rental rates for any resorts associated with the theme parks will drop below the goosed-up operating costs that the owners pay. That's less clear for VB, HHI, or even Aulani, all of which are built in second-tier locations coupled with high operating costs. But, there are various black swan events that could change that. For example, if for some reason air travel became significantly and structurally more expensive, that is big trouble for WDW.

------
Vidanta has locations with similar properties, especially in Nuevo Vallarta and Riviera Maya. We used a bonus week at Neuvo a few years ago, and it was *lovely*. So, despite being quite seasonal, owning can still make sense there.

Williamsburg, VA?
 
I don't think that the on-property Disney resorts will ever go negative. We're in a weird period right now, with lower demand because neither Disney World nor Disneyland has new attractions of size that will be attendance drivers for the parks. That problem "should" fix itself in two or three years. Also, if one on-property resort were to go negative I don't think it would be OWK, it'd be AKV. Cash room rates there are far lower than those at OWK and point rates are higher. But still, I feel DVC is going to be fine for the rest of my life, maybe longer.

People do come and go from the Disney sphere. Some get irritated, age out, or simply move on--and others come in and replace them. Also, there are lifers in the Disney sphere as well--probably most everyone on this board. But I've seen endless waves of "I'm quitting Disney because of X" since the 1990s, and aside from minor dips and swells in overall park attendance (dip 2008, swell 2016), nothing much really changes on that front.
 

I guess what I find interesting is seeing resorts with strong "brands" like Sheraton and Hyatt being negative, in choice locations like Key West or Orlando, it does make me wonder if this could happen with some of the less desirable resorts location-wise like OKW. But, trading into the system would probably allow you to retain value.

I suspect, if it were to happen we would see it primarily with 1 Bedrooms, which already struggle against cash rates, and where, at times discounted cash rates through disney actually beat out point rental costs. So, it isn't negative for owners yet, but it could be, especially if Disney needed to discount the rooms more heavily in a future year.
 
I think the obvious situation would be a recession; hotel rates would plummet while maintenance fees would not. This would only be temporary though, and Disney is good at making a shell game out of their hotel rates where it's tough to determine what the true cost of the room is when bundled with tickets.
 
in choice locations like Key West or Orlando
1: Orlando is not a choice location for timeshare valuations. See: overbuilt.
2: I suspect that's either at one of the "lesser" Key West Hyatts (there are several, and some are in better locations than others) or a lower-demand week. But Hyatts are also pretty wonky, and they were recently devalued in Interval which might have resulted in an inventory bump. It would also not surprise me to learn that the Key West resorts have unusually high MFs given (a) the Florida fully-funded condo law plus (b) what have to be insane insurance rates.
 
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I think it has more to do with the week - apparently Hyatt has the same MFs for all weeks, whether they are mud, ice, or lovely season.
 
I could see the restricted resorts like Riviera and CFW go to zero. VB probably would have years ago if not for the ability to exchange into other resorts.
 
I don't think that the on-property Disney resorts will ever go negative. We're in a weird period right now, with lower demand because neither Disney World nor Disneyland has new attractions of size that will be attendance drivers for the parks. That problem "should" fix itself in two or three years. Also, if one on-property resort were to go negative I don't think it would be OWK, it'd be AKV. Cash room rates there are far lower than those at OWK and point rates are higher. But still, I feel DVC is going to be fine for the rest of my life, maybe longer.

People do come and go from the Disney sphere. Some get irritated, age out, or simply move on--and others come in and replace them. Also, there are lifers in the Disney sphere as well--probably most everyone on this board. But I've seen endless waves of "I'm quitting Disney because of X" since the 1990s, and aside from minor dips and swells in overall park attendance (dip 2008, swell 2016), nothing much really changes on that front.
Nah. If there were a betting pool I would bet on OKW going to zero before AKV. AKV is a newer building, better theming (with animals!), cheaper dues, much smaller internal bus route with just 2 buildings, etc.

It just has a hotel component (higher supply for those wanting to stay cash) vs OKW (where it is DVC only and would have less rooms for rent via cash as a result), which may raise the cash price from Disney a bit. The lower point cost of OKW is probably part of what is propping it up a bit too IMO. OKW and SSR are usually the last 2 resorts to book up, which means that AKV is more popular than OKW even with it's higher point charts.

And that is before we even begin to mention the 2042 fiasco where they will have to possibly resell half (or more?) of the resort whose owners didn't choose to extend. The oldest WDW resort with the highest dues and one of the worst locations/layouts will not sell well IMO and will be the biggest test to see if any of the WDW/DL resorts truly can/will go to zero.
 
Disney is investing billions of dollars to keep the theme park properties highly desirable.

Ko Olina is also having a lot of positive investments and new laws limiting short term rentals should keep timeshares attractive. The obvious risks are airfare, cost of insurance, etc.

Rentals won’t stay at $20pp forever…. but we’ve had a depression, stagflation, and 2 world wars in the last 100 years…. So no one really knows.
 










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