When is a child "innocent"?

[Magpie]

What does "innocence" mean to you, in the context of your children? How do you define it? Is it something you feel the need to protect as long as possible? And how do you know when it's gone?

I know what I think of as innocence, but reading another thread I'm getting the impression that it has different meanings for other people.

So what does "innocence" mean?

***

For me, personally, innocence is not the same thing as ignorance. I don't think sex ed can destroy any child's innocence. But meanness and cruelty definitely chip away at it. An example of innocence, to me...

My daughter came home the other day, looking bemused. She told me that an older boy she'd never seen before had pointed his finger at her and cursed at her in the high school cafeteria (the "f" word, among others). "I think he was on about girls, and got mad at me because I was a girl, too."

I asked her what she did then, and my daughter said, "I told him, I don't know what you're talking about. I wasn't listening to you!" Then she shrugged and said, "For some reason, that seemed to make him madder. But I ignored him, and eventually he went away."

So why do I say this is an example of innocence? Because my daughter experienced no sense of danger, no sense of threat. It never occurred to her that he might hurt her, and I suspect that's because she's never been hurt. I've talked to her a lot about personal safety, and in theory she knows a lot, but she's still innocent. I worry about that girl, to be honest.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Wow that is hard for me to define

I answered the thread the way I interpreted the OP to mean "innocent" which did seem to be lack of knowledge about "adult" or "serious" things. That is not how i really think of it though. I have never, in my own mind, equated naivety with innocence.

I think you and i see it fairly similarly. For example, if I stop and think about what is going on to show me that my kids are less innocent than they used to be, the big things i think of all go back to my kids now (sadly) expecting to be treated cruelly at times. For example: my son is a bit of a free spirit. He loves dancing, has a different sense of style, likes to wear nail polish, etc. For most of his life he did just what he wanted as far as any of that was concerned and never gave it much thought. If someone teased about it he just shrugged and wondered what was wrong with them and thought they were the exception. Now he spends time making sure to NOT have his dance tings visible when he goes certain places and getting of all his nail polish before going back to school etc.--he has lost the innocence to believe he will be liekd for who he is and now he has to pretend to be something else to feel he will be treated nicely

 

[Tink888]

That is a hard one to explain. For me, I think loss of innocence happens when a child experiences a hurt which directly affects them caused by either another person or event in their world.

I think that all people start out at their core believing that people are good, that the world is good and just, and when something personally happens to shake that belief, a loss of innocence occurs if that makes sense.

It could be when a child is abused or harmed. It could happen for instance when a child loses a parent or someone close to them due to death and they experience the pain of that.

 

[OceanAnnie]

What does "innocence" mean to you, in the context of your children? How do you define it? Is it something you feel the need to protect as long as possible? And how do you know when it's gone?

I know what I think of as innocence, but reading another thread I'm getting the impression that it has different meanings for other people.

So what does "innocence" mean?

***

For me, personally, innocence is not the same thing as ignorance. I don't think sex ed can destroy any child's innocence. But meanness and cruelty definitely chip away at it. An example of innocence, to me...

My daughter came home the other day, looking bemused. She told me that an older boy she'd never seen before had pointed his finger at her and cursed at her in the high school cafeteria (the "f" word, among others). "I think he was on about girls, and got mad at me because I was a girl, too."

I asked her what she did then, and my daughter said, "I told him, I don't know what you're talking about. I wasn't listening to you!" Then she shrugged and said, "For some reason, that seemed to make him madder. But I ignored him, and eventually he went away."

So why do I say this is an example of innocence? Because my daughter experienced no sense of danger, no sense of threat. It never occurred to her that he might hurt her, and I suspect that's because she's never been hurt. I've talked to her a lot about personal safety, and in theory she knows a lot, but she's still innocent. I worry about that girl, to be honest.

Simply put, IMO it's both ignorance (of the ugliness of the world) intertwined with goodness (meaning goodwill and good intentions).

 

[Magpie]

Simply put, IMO it's both ignorance (of the ugliness of the world) intertwined with goodness (meaning goodwill and good intentions).

Okay... I can see that kind of ignorance being innocent. But I don't think, for example, that learning where babies come from destroys innocence. Or watching the evening news (with the exception of certain over-the-top coverage on serials killers that frankly knocks holes in MY innocence, so we don't watch it). I'm not sure about some of the crime shows, though... Some of them promote an awfully grim view of humanity.

 

[Momvic5]

Simply put, IMO it's both ignorance (of the ugliness of the world) intertwined with goodness (meaning goodwill and good intentions).

Okay... I can see that kind of ignorance being innocent. But I don't think, for example, that learning where babies come from destroys innocence. Or watching the evening news (with the exception of certain over-the-top coverage on serials killers that frankly knocks holes in MY innocence, so we don't watch it). I'm not sure about some of the crime shows, though... Some of them promote an awfully grim view of humanity.

I agree with both posts. My definition is the same as OceanAnnie's. I still remember vividly the day my son's innocence was shattered. He stumbled upon an inappropriate website. I knew immediately something was wrong because he came to me with an expression that looked like he had seen a ghost. He only saw the image for a few seconds and paniced. He turned the screen off and came and got me. He was in the 4th grade at the time, and there isn't a fourth grader alive that should see or know what he saw. It went way beyond sex and how babies are made and into the ugliness of the world. I had to talk to him about it, and it broke my heart. Now he had this image in his mind that really didn't make sense to him, and even after our conversation, I knew it was just going to be information in his mind that would take time and maturity for him to make sense of. It was just too much too soon.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Well, I am "anti innocence" so my kids grew up like that. Maybe it is that way because DH and grew up in "the hood".

Street smarts meant survival. Knowledge is power and all that jazz.

I will give one example because I have too many to talk about. My youngest is in 8th grade and she cannot believe the level of "ignorance" or "innocence" her peers live in.

Last week, for example, the children wanted to know what an atheist was. It was in Social Studies class and I forgot the topic but the word came up and the kids are "innocent" to people outside of their sphere of influence.

Literally my dd comes home in disbelief some days to the "innocence" these kids live in. They are sheltered from current events and spoon fed politics and religion. They are not allowed to hear "the other side" so when it is talked about in school the teacher literally has to explain basic things.

My dd feels like "The President of the USA" in the movie "Idiocracy" on some days in school.

 

[Magpie]

I agree with both posts. My definition is the same as OceanAnnie's. I still remember vividly the day my son's innocence was shattered. He stumbled upon an inappropriate website. I knew immediately something was wrong because he came to me with an expression that looked like he had seen a ghost. He only saw the image for a few seconds and paniced. He turned the screen off and came and got me. He was in the 4th grade at the time, and there isn't a fourth grader alive that should see or know what he saw. It went way beyond sex and how babies are made and into the ugliness of the world. I had to talk to him about it, and it broke my heart. Now he had this image in his mind that really didn't make sense to him, and even after our conversation, I knew it was just going to be information in his mind that would take time and maturity for him to make sense of. It was just too much too soon.

See... something like this happened to my son, too, but I don't think his innocence was shattered.

My son was about 8, and one of the websites he was on was hijacked and dumped him into a porn site. He immediately shut off the computer (which is what I'd warned him to do if ever this had happened) and came to me all white-faced and wide-eyed. I asked him what happened, and he told me, "There were breasts on the computer and they were BOUNCING!" They must've been animated!

So... definitely not as bad as what your son saw, but what could he have possibly seen in a second anyway? Some variation of Tab A goes into Slot B, C, or D, I'd imagine. Unless it was bondage or something even weirder... Oy, that'd be a tough discussion, I can imagine! Especially if someone appeared to be getting hurt.

My kids knew about most of the basic tab-to-slot stuff, in a very theoretical way, by 4th grade. We had the book, "It's Perfectly Normal" around, thanks to my husband teaching the teenagers sex ed at our church. And when we got the updated version, it was my then-4th grade daughter who read it and noticed that they'd changed the language around a particular sex act often associated with homosexuals to be more gender-neutral. (She's detail-oriented like that.)

Anyway, when it happened to us, I just assured my son that he'd done the right thing by turning the computer off and telling me. I told him that - strange as it might seem to him now - some grown-up men like looking at naked women. "No worries, son, you're not going to go blind!" I also made sure that he understood that he wasn't responsible for going to the wrong site. It wasn't his fault (he thought at first that it was, and that's what upset him the most).

My little boy may have glimpsed some porn when he was 8, but he's still the innocent 13yo who gets red faced and shy whenever his best friend's sister happens to be in town. And who seems to have NO idea why his dad and I would want to spend time alone with each other, every now and then.

 

[OceanAnnie]

Well, I am "anti innocence" so my kids grew up like that. Maybe it is that way because DH and grew up in "the hood".

Street smarts meant survival. Knowledge is power and all that jazz.

I will give one example because I have too many to talk about. My youngest is in 8th grade and she cannot believe the level of "ignorance" or "innocence" her peers live in.

Last week, for example, the children wanted to know what an atheist was. It was in Social Studies class and I forgot the topic but the word came up and the kids are "innocent" to people outside of their sphere of influence.

Literally my dd comes home in disbelief some days to the "innocence" these kids live in. They are sheltered from current events and spoon fed politics and religion. They are not allowed to hear "the other side" so when it is talked about in school the teacher literally has to explain basic things.

My dd feels like "The President of the USA" in the movie "Idiocracy" on some days in school.

To a degree, I feel the same way.

We try to find a balance. We talk a lot. Talk a lot about, "what ifs" and protection strategies. As they get older we will expand our conversations.

 

[Momvic5]

See... something like this happened to my son, too, but I don't think his innocence was shattered.

My son was about 8, and one of the websites he was on was hijacked and dumped him into a porn site. He immediately shut off the computer (which is what I'd warned him to do if ever this had happened) and came to me all white-faced and wide-eyed. I asked him what happened, and he told me, "There were breasts on the computer and they were BOUNCING!" They must've been animated!

So... definitely not as bad as what your son saw, but what could he have possibly seen in a second anyway? Some variation of Tab A goes into Slot B, C, or D, I'd imagine. Unless it was bondage or something even weirder... Oy, that'd be a tough discussion, I can imagine! Especially if someone appeared to be getting hurt.

My kids knew about most of the basic tab-to-slot stuff, in a very theoretical way, by 4th grade. We had the book, "It's Perfectly Normal" around, thanks to my husband teaching the teenagers sex ed at our church. And when we got the updated version, it was my then-4th grade daughter who read it and noticed that they'd changed the language around a particular sex act often associated with homosexuals to be more gender-neutral. (She's detail-oriented like that.)

Anyway, when it happened to us, I just assured my son that he'd done the right thing by turning the computer off and telling me. I told him that - strange as it might seem to him now - some grown-up men like looking at naked women. "No worries, son, you're not going to go blind!" I also made sure that he understood that he wasn't responsible for going to the wrong site. It wasn't his fault (he thought at first that it was, and that's what upset him the most).

My little boy may have glimpsed some porn when he was 8, but he's still the innocent 13yo who gets red faced and shy whenever his best friend's sister happens to be in town. And who seems to have NO idea why his dad and I would want to spend time alone with each other, every now and then.

No, my ds did not see just a naked person. He saw something totally unnormal and that should be disturbing to everyone. He is 14 years old now and though he is older and more matured, I still think he drags the image more than he carrys it. It is kind of like when you watch a scary movie, and you know it is not real, but yet in weak or vulnerable moments, your mind is haunted with those thoughts. It is like your innocence or peace of mind is shattered and you are forced to make sense of it all.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

I think of it as naivety. A child's view of the world as a good place, filled with good people, having fun. The innocence is lost when the bloom comes off the rose, so to speak - when the child recognizes the cold, hard realities of life.

 

[kellyg403]

I guess for me 'innocence' is a lack of life experience or maybe ignorance..not sure its more about niavity.

My son is 16. Greatest kid ever in my book. Sweet, funny and kind. Loves his little neices and nephews etc. He never had a girlfriend. He found one last year. She dumped him for someone else about 3 months into the 'relationship'. I cautioned him so many times. Tried to give advice. I could see what he thought he had was different than the reality. This particular girl had issue with any girl he spoke to but her facebook was litered with comments and meet ups with other boys that were purely platonic. A do what I say not what I do position if I ever saw it. He was devastated. So much so I worried he may need counseling. His heart was totally broken that there were people out there who could say they 'loved' him and then hurt him. He had never expierenced that and his innocence was totally shattered.

So, that would be my interpetation.

Kelly

 

[LuvOrlando]

To me being an innocent means not being hardened by life. Someone can be 50, 80 or 100 & still be an innocent if their motives have no malice. To me innocence is about the inside out experiences, not the outside in.

 

[kellyg403]

Well, I am "anti innocence" so my kids grew up like that. Maybe it is that way because DH and grew up in "the hood".

Street smarts meant survival. Knowledge is power and all that jazz.

I will give one example because I have too many to talk about. My youngest is in 8th grade and she cannot believe the level of "ignorance" or "innocence" her peers live in.

Last week, for example, the children wanted to know what an atheist was. It was in Social Studies class and I forgot the topic but the word came up and the kids are "innocent" to people outside of their sphere of influence.

Literally my dd comes home in disbelief some days to the "innocence" these kids live in. They are sheltered from current events and spoon fed politics and religion. They are not allowed to hear "the other side" so when it is talked about in school the teacher literally has to explain basic things.

My dd feels like "The President of the USA" in the movie "Idiocracy" on some days in school.

Yes, we have always been one family who talks about things. I always felt letting the kids talk out 'differences' and why those differences matter helped them be more understanding and compasionate to others.

We have talked about such things as abortion birth control, politics etc. My dd came home one day and during health class a coversation had come up re: birth control. She couldn't believe that the teacher was acting/teaching that birth control mattered to females only and in a pregnancy sense. She kept saying "what about STD and AIDS, what if they boy doesn't want a baby" I have always taught my sons, you don't want to have children YOU take care of it, don't expect to lay it only on the female part of the equation. So, for me..it doesn't shatter their innocence just gives them information to navigate the world.

Kelly

 

[Magpie]

No, my ds did not see just a naked person. He saw something totally unnormal and that should be disturbing to everyone. He is 14 years old now and though he is older and more matured, I still think he drags the image more than he carrys it. It is kind of like when you watch a scary movie, and you know it is not real, but yet in weak or vulnerable moments, your mind is haunted with those thoughts. It is like your innocence or peace of mind is shattered and you are forced to make sense of it all.

I do know that feeling... I still kind of drag the stuff I learned during the Bernardo trial around with me. So I'm sorry your son had to see that. Under the circumstances, I'm not sure I would have put that under the label of "sex" or "porn". I think I would have just told my child that some people are deeply weird, and "I'm sure it's all faked".

But, that was almost half your son's lifetime ago, and it was a glimpse of filth, not a prolonged wallow in it. Does he talk about it with you, or are you just assuming he's still thinking about it? He may have moved on. (I hope!)

I think kids are a lot more resilient than we give them credit for, especially if the adults around them are calm.

For example, *apparently* I saw a kid get shot at my bus stop when I was in First Grade (this was my second time through First Grade because I failed my first try at it, so I was seven). I don't remember. Why? Because when the police called my mother to come and pick me up, she decided the best thing she could do was distract me. So she drove down, loaded me into the car, and then headed straight out of the city to the nearest riding stable. And that day, I got my very first riding lesson.

I honestly don't remember anything of that day beyond "PONIES!". It's all gone. I only know about it, because my mother told me about it many years later.

Now, I'm not saying this would be the right way to handle everything, but I do think kids are pretty strong. In fact, their lack of true understanding - their "innocence" - often protects them.

 

[Planogirl]

I think that innocence is not understanding how mean and cruel the world can be. Like others have said, kids tend to think the best of people, all people. They haven't necessarily learned that some people just aren't nice.

I don't think innocence really has much to do with sex. Sex is natural and understanding it doesn't destroy innocence IMO.

 

[Momvic5]

I do know that feeling... I still kind of drag the stuff I learned during the Bernardo trial around with me. So I'm sorry your son had to see that. Under the circumstances, I'm not sure I would have put that under the label of "sex" or "porn". I think I would have just told my child that some people are deeply weird, and "I'm sure it's all faked".

But, that was almost half your son's lifetime ago, and it was a glimpse of filth, not a prolonged wallow in it. Does he talk about it with you, or are you just assuming he's still thinking about it? He may have moved on. (I hope!)

I think kids are a lot more resilient than we give them credit for, especially if the adults around them are calm.

For example, *apparently* I saw a kid get shot at my bus stop when I was in First Grade (this was my second time through First Grade because I failed my first try at it, so I was seven). I don't remember. Why? Because when the police called my mother to come and pick me up, she decided the best thing she could do was distract me. So she drove down, loaded me into the car, and then headed straight out of the city to the nearest riding stable. And that day, I got my very first riding lesson.

I honestly don't remember anything of that day beyond "PONIES!". It's all gone. I only know about it, because my mother told me about it many years later.

Now, I'm not saying this would be the right way to handle everything, but I do think kids are pretty strong. In fact, their lack of true understanding - their "innocence" - often protects them.

Your mom seems like a very smart lady.

I wish I could have come up with an idea like your mom did, but I don't think it would have worked in our situation. By his ghostly expression and reaction, I knew that the image had left an immediate impression on him. I know for sure that he still remembers the image because he brought it up jokingly one day. His exact comment was "that was warped and sick" - and then he laughed it off, but other than that, he never talks about it. I think that I view it as a time of innocence lost because it was his first real experience with something that confused his peace of mind. You are right - he is and was resilent, and I am thankful for that, but it doesn't take away from that fact that at the time, he was introduced to a sick world.

 

[LuLuO]

I think of it as naivety. A child's view of the world as a good place, filled with good people, having fun. The innocence is lost when the bloom comes off the rose, so to speak - when the child recognizes the cold, hard realities of life.

 

[LuLuO]

I remember when I lost my innocence. It was when I saw the movie 'Adam' about John Walsh's son who was kidnapped and murdered. I was seven when that movie aired on TV and it really changed the way I looked at people.

I don't necessairly shield things from my kids but I try to explain the world in a way that is age appropriate that won't scare the bejeezus out of them. I don't want them to be naive to the point that it puts them in danger but I don't want them to be overwhelmed either. It is a difficult line to walk.