When do annual fees start?

[Maistre Gracey]

I've done this a million times (actually 18), but still can't remember..
We added on at VGC and just completed the paperwork. We have a September use year, and received 2009 points even though we are approaching our 2010 use year.
I know annual fees are due in January, but I'm not sure when or how we will be billed for our 2009 points. Will the fees be pro-rated since we will likely close in July, or will we owe for the entire 2010 calendar year?

Thanx,
MG

 

[parlay]

I've done this a million times (actually 18), but still can't remember..
We added on at VGC and just completed the paperwork. We have a September use year, and received 2009 points even though we are approaching our 2010 use year.
I know annual fees are due in January, but I'm not sure when or how we will be billed for our 2009 points. Will the fees be pro-rated since we will likely close in July, or will we owe for the entire 2010 calendar year?

Thanx,
MG

They will be prorated from the time your papers actually get filed with the comptrollers office sometime in July. We have direct debit, and it took a few months after closing before the fees were deducted.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

They will be prorated from the time your papers actually get filed with the comptrollers office sometime in July. We have direct debit, and it took a few months after closing before the fees were deducted.

Thank you.. Prorated is good. I was afraid I would owe for the entire year.

MG

 

[LisaS]

You will owe pro-rated dues based on the later of: your purchase date, the start of your initial Use Year and the occupancy date of the Unit you purchased. In other words, dues start based on when you can start using the points. Assuming construction is complete on your Unit at VGC, then your purchase date will be the start date for your 2010 dues and you will owe approximately 6 months of dues (Disney will figure it out down to the day.)

You will be billed after you close. If you pay monthly and you don't close for say 2 months, you will end up paying about 6 months worth of dues in 4 monthly payments.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

You will owe pro-rated dues based on the later of: your purchase date, the start of your initial Use Year and the occupancy date of the Unit you purchased. In other words, dues start based on when you can start using the points. Assuming construction is complete on your Unit at VGC, then your purchase date will be the start date for your 2010 dues and you will owe approximately 6 months of dues (Disney will figure it out down to the day.)

You will be billed after you close. If you pay monthly and you don't close for say 2 months, you will end up paying about 6 months worth of dues in 4 monthly payments.

Thanx Lisa. I actually initiated the add-on in May, then re-wrote the paperwork after the web cast in June. The points were banked immediately when I started the process in May, so I guess the worst case is I will owe from May. That could be as much as 7 1/2 months crammed into five monthly payments.
Still a lot better than paying on the whole year!

Thanx again,
MG

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

We added on at VGC and just completed the paperwork. We have a September use year, and received 2009 points even though we are approaching our 2010 use year.
I know annual fees are due in January, but I'm not sure when or how we will be billed for our 2009 points. Will the fees be pro-rated since we will likely close in July, or will we owe for the entire 2010 calendar year?

Thanx,
MG

And it's the 2010 points that will have the prorated dues owed on. It should be from the time of the rewritten date of your contract - not the date that your originally started. The 2009 points will not have any dues due.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

And it's the 2010 points that will have the prorated dues owed on. It should be from the time of the rewritten date of your contract - not the date that your originally started. The 2009 points will not have any dues due.

Good point.. I didn't even think of that. That's quite a bargain getting 2009 points and not paying dues on them.

MG

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Good point.. I didn't even think of that. That's quite a bargain getting 2009 points and not paying dues on them.

MG

Always good to add on just before your UY! If I had VGC in my Oct UY instead of Apr I might add on a few more points myself but I haven't recovered yet from the fact I didn't ever get 2009 points.

At least my dues didn't start until Apr but no free points for me!!

 

[LisaS]

And it's the 2010 points that will have the prorated dues owed on. It should be from the time of the rewritten date of your contract - not the date that your originally started. The 2009 points will not have any dues due.

Since dues are paid on a calendar year basis, I think of it this way:

With a September UY, the 2010 dues cover 8/12ths of the 2009 points and 4/12ths of the 2010 points. You would get the 2009 points for free (or very nearly so) if you purchased on the last day of your 2009 UY. In that situation, with a Sep UY purchasing on Aug 31st, you would pay the usual 4/12ths of the 2010 dues towards the 2010 points and only one day's dues towards the 2009 points. Waiting until the last minute is not usually a good idea however since they could run out of 2009 points by that time.

For MG's purchase, he's paying just under 4/12ths of the dues normally owed for the 2009 points plus the 4/12ths normally paid for the 2010 points for this calendar year, so it's still a great deal! He's getting a full set of points but paying only 1/3 of the usual fee for those points.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Since dues are paid on a calendar year basis, I think of it this way:

With a September UY, the 2010 dues cover 8/12ths of the 2009 points and 4/12ths of the 2010 points. You would get the 2009 points for free (or very nearly so) if you purchased on the last day of your 2009 UY. In that situation, with a Sep UY purchasing on Aug 31st, you would pay the usual 4/12ths of the 2010 dues towards the 2010 points and only one day's dues towards the 2009 points. Waiting until the last minute is not usually a good idea however since they could run out of 2009 points by that time.

For MG's purchase, he's paying just under 4/12ths of the dues normally owed for the 2009 points plus the 4/12ths normally paid for the 2010 points for this calendar year, so it's still a great deal! He's getting a full set of points but paying only 1/3 of the usual fee for those points.

I believe I understand what you are saying but that isn't technically how the dues will be calculated. The 2009 points for MG will be completely free. ie - if 200 points are being purchased with a Sept UY then 200 (2009) points are in your account immediately without any dues being owed and in Sept the 200 2010 points will be current but would have had prorated dues from the date of purchase. UY doesn't figure into dues. (except maybe in 2042/2054/2057 or 2060 but I'm guessing even then it won't matter)

Once the calendar year is past there are no dues on those points when you purchase directly even if you are purchasing in your 2009 UY. Only the 2010 points will have dues in this situation. And, VGC is completely open so anyone purchasing there now will have their purchase date used for the calculation of dues without any regard to their UY or opening date of their unit. All UY's prior to June this year did have a prorated date to the start of their UY b/c they did not come with 2009 points but not the Jun-Dec UY's.

So, in MG's case he has received 2009 points for free and will owe a little over 6/12ths of the dues on the 2010 points because he signed in June.

 

[LisaS]

I believe I understand what you are saying but that isn't technically how the dues will be calculated. The 2009 points for MG will be completely free. ie - if 200 points are being purchased with a Sept UY then 200 (2009) points are in your account immediately without any dues being owed and in Sept the 200 2010 points will be current but would have had prorated dues from the date of purchase. UY doesn't figure into dues. (except maybe in 2042/2054/2057 or 2060 but I'm guessing even then it won't matter)

Once the calendar year is past there are no dues on those points when you purchase directly even if you are purchasing in your 2009 UY. Only the 2010 points will have dues in this situation. And, VGC is completely open so anyone purchasing there now will have their purchase date used for the calculation of dues without any regard to their UY or opening date of their unit. All UY's prior to June this year did have a prorated date to the start of their UY b/c they did not come with 2009 points but not the Jun-Dec UY's.

So, in MG's case he has received 2009 points for free and will owe a little over 6/12ths of the dues on the 2010 points because he signed in June.

If you view the 2010 calendar-year dues as paying only for the 2010 UY's points, then the dues should be pro-rated starting Sep 1, 2010. But MG is paying starting from sometime in May so what is he getting for his dues money for May x, 2010 - Aug 31, 2010 if the 2009 points are free?

Let's look at how it works if you purchase new construction. I bought AKV when sales first opened which was in the month of February I think. My occupancy date was Sep 1st but I have an Oct UY so I didn't get my first set of points for a month after my occupancy date. My dues were pro-rated from Oct 1st corresponding to the date I got that first set of points. I could have borrowed those points and used them as of Sep 1 (the occupancy date of my Unit) so technically I had use of the points starting from Sep 1st but I didn't pay any dues on them until Oct 1st because Disney pro-rates based on the official grant date of the points.

In MG's case, he has use of the 2009 UY points starting in May 2010 so he pays dues from that date. If the Sep 2009 points were really free, then no dues would be owed until the start date of the 2010 UY.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

But if you view the 2010 calendar-year dues as paying only for the 2010 UY's points, then the dues should be pro-rated starting Sep 1, 2010. But MG is paying starting from sometime in May so what is he getting for his dues money for May x, 2010 - Aug 31, 2010 if the 2009 points are free?

Let's look at how it works if you purchase new construction. I bought AKV when sales first opened which was in the month of February I think. My occupancy date was Sep 1st but I have an Oct UY so I didn't get my first set of points for a month after my occupancy date. My dues were pro-rated from Oct 1st corresponding to the date I got that first set of points. I could have borrowed those points and used them as of Sep 1 (the occupancy date of my Unit) so technically I had use of the points starting from Sep 1st but I didn't pay any dues on them until Oct 1st because Disney pro-rates based on the official grant date of the points.

In MG's case, he has use of the 2009 UY points starting in May 2010 so he pays dues from that date. If the Sep 2009 points were really free, then no dues would be owed until the start date of the 2010 UY.

I think you are throwing in some variables (ie - relative to resorts under construction) that don't exist in this case. And - the difference between calendar year and UY.

In the end - if he were paying on the 2009 points then the 2009 MF would be used for the calculation. That won't happen. The MF's used to calculate the dues will be the 2010 amount.

Also, for example I have both Apr and Oct UY's. My 2010 dues for both are payable at the exact same time and have no correlation to my UY. If they worked as you say above then I shouldn't have to pay my Oct UY dues until long after my Apr dues b/c I don't receive them until Oct. Every year I'm always paying far in advance for my Oct points.

When I added on in late Feb - some for my Apr UY and some for my Oct UY I received 2009 points with no dues payable. And I paid for 10+ months of 2010 MF calculated dues for both my Apr and Oct UY points. They were both due at the same time (May 15th I believe) - once closing occured but the date used for calculating was based on the date of purchase back in Feb. This is how it's been for every add on I've done with the exceptions of AKV since I had a Kidani unit and purchased prior to it opening, and for my Apr VGC UY b/c I did not receive 2009 points. Those scenarios followed the rule of dues being prorated from the first date of occupancy or the first date of your UY, whichever is later. And what I've paid for dues on add on's coincides with how I interpret the paperwork to read that they should be calculated.

 

[LisaS]

I think you are throwing in some variables (ie - relative to resorts under construction) that don't exist in this case. And - the difference between calendar year and UY.

I threw in the new construction example to illustrate that Disney charges pro-rated dues based on the first set of points that you receive.

In the end - if he were paying on the 2009 points then the 2009 MF would be used for the calculation. That won't happen. The MF's used to calculate the dues will be the 2010 amount.

If he were paying all dues related to the 2009 points then it should be calculated as (4/12 * 2009 dues) + (8/12 * 2010 dues). They are only charging him for 4 months of dues on the 2009 points and it's logical that they would do so at the 2010 rate since he purchased at that time. So he's paying (4/12 * 2010 dues) on the 2009 points rather than the (8/12 * 2010 dues) he would have paid had he purchased the add-on in 2009.

Also, for example I have both Apr and Oct UY's. My 2010 dues for both are payable at the exact same time and have no correlation to my UY. If they worked as you say above then I shouldn't have to pay my Oct UY dues until long after my Apr dues b/c I don't receive them until Oct. Every year I'm always paying far in advance for my Oct points.

The correlation between your calendar dues and your UY is as follows:

For your Apr UY, your 2010 dues paid for 3/12ths of your 2009 points and 9/12ths of your 2010 points.

For your Oct UY, your 2010 dues paid for 9/12ths of your 2009 points and 3/12ths of your 2010 points.

When I added on in late Feb - some for my Apr UY and some for my Oct UY I received 2009 points with no dues payable. And I paid for 10+ months of 2010 MF calculated dues for both my Apr and Oct UY points. They were both due at the same time (May 15th I believe) - once closing occured but the date used for calculating was based on the date of purchase back in Feb. This is how it's been for every add on I've done with the exceptions of AKV since I had a Kidani unit and purchased prior to it opening, and for my Apr VGC UY b/c I did not receive 2009 points. Those scenarios followed the rule of dues being prorated from the first date of occupancy or the first date of your UY, whichever is later. And what I've paid for dues on add on's coincides with how I interpret the paperwork to read that they should be calculated.

Correct on all counts but regardless of Disney's marketing spin, the 2009 points were not totally free. Part of your pro-rated dues covered the part of your UY that overlapped with the remaining calendar year from your purchase date in the cases where you received points immediately.

 

[Sandisw]

I threw in the new construction example to illustrate that Disney charges pro-rated dues based on the first set of points that you receive.

If he were paying all dues related to the 2009 points then it should be calculated as (4/12 * 2009 dues) + (8/12 * 2010 dues). They are only charging him for 4 months of dues on the 2009 points and it's logical that they would do so at the 2010 rate since he purchased at that time. So he's paying (4/12 * 2010 dues) on the 2009 points rather than the (8/12 * 2010 dues) he would have paid had he purchased the add-on in 2009.

The correlation between your calendar dues and your UY is as follows:

For your Apr UY, your 2010 dues paid for 3/12ths of your 2009 points and 9/12ths of your 2010 points.

For your Oct UY, your 2010 dues paid for 9/12ths of your 2009 points and 3/12ths of your 2010 points.

Correct on all counts but regardless of Disney's marketing spin, the 2009 points were not totally free. Part of your pro-rated dues covered the part of your UY that overlapped with the remaining calendar year from your purchase date in the cases where you received points immediately.

If this was really the case, under your theory, MF"s should be billed at two different rates. For example, someone with a Feb UY would be paying less for their 2009 points than someone with an Oct UY.

Why should someone who has a later UY have to pay the 2010 rate on 2009 points?

That is why someone's UY has nothing to do with how your dues are calculated. They are based simply on your ownership for that calendar year. And, the amount that you owe is based on the number of contract points you own for that year.

So, when someone adds on, they are increasing their ownership, and thus owe MF's for the remainder of the calendar year on that new ownership.

IMO, equating it to the UY will cause confusion for many since that is not how MF's are calculated.

 

[LisaS]

If this was really the case, under your theory, MF"s should be billed at two different rates. For example, someone with a Feb UY would be paying less for their 2009 points than someone with an Oct UY.

Why should someone who has a later UY have to pay the 2010 rate on 2009 points?

It's easiest to understand if you think about the first year a resort is open. I purchased AKV in Feb but paid only 3 months' worth of dues that first year even though I got a full year's worth of points. Someone with a Sep UY paid 4 months' worth of dues that year and someone with a Dec UY paid only 1 month's worth of dues that year even though we all purchased the same day and we all got the same number of points. How is that fair? Does Disney like people with Dec UYs more than the rest of us so they get a better price?

Well it's because Disney gets the rest of the money for those points the following calendar year. Now because dues generally increase, the person with the Dec UY actually paid a few dollars more overall for their points than I did because a greater percentage of his/her points were billed at a higher rate of dues. But that's just the way it is.

That is why someone's UY has nothing to do with how your dues are calculated. They are based simply on your ownership for that calendar year. And, the amount that you owe is based on the number of contract points you own for that year.

That is correct assuming a full year of ownership. I'm talking about what that year's dues are paying for, namely some percentage of your 2009 points and some percentage of your 2010 points. Think of your points as being spread out evenly across your UY. In general (since dues tend to rise each year) you will pay one rate for the part of your points that fall within one calendar year and a different rate for the part that fall within the next calendar year.

So, when someone adds on, they are increasing their ownership, and thus owe MF's for the remainder of the calendar year on that new ownership.

IMO, equating it to the UY will cause confusion for many since that is not how MF's are calculated.

It is confusing I agree and that is why when you purchase a resale contract they won't calculate the dues reimbursement this way. They insist on a full year's reimbursement (if you get the full set of points) even though the original owner (if they purchased directly from Disney) got a price break in the first year. There have been many discussions on this topic in fact and many of us who agree that reimbursing a full year's worth of dues in incorrect but I assume they do it for simplicity's sake.

Regarding Disney's current marketing campaign about "free points", if they are stating that if you add on now with an Aug - Dec UY the 2009 points are "free", that is misleading. If they are saying "you pay no 2009 dues on those points" then technically that is correct. You do not pay 2009 dues on those points but part of the pro-rated 2010 dues that you do pay covers part of those points.

 

[LisaS]

I did a search for one of Caskbill's many posts on this subject. He had such a knack for explaining complicated subjects! I thought this might be helpful. See post #4 in this thread: http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1008160

 

[Drudge]

Thanks for all the great info. Now if only I could understand it all...