What is it with some people and their dogs?

[allison443]

Just because a dog has bitten in the past doesn't make it a "dangerous dog". Maybe the owner who took the dog to the ballfield was trying to socialize the dog. Not everything is black and white.

Just wanted to point out since you live in NY, that in NY if your dog has bitten in the past, you will absolutely be found liable if the dog bites someone and they sue you. That is "black and white" law in New York, anyway.

 

[Wonders10]

Does anyone else think we've gotten a little carried away from the OP and the situation she described?

 

[singingpixie]

I think I can see the point of those who don't see everything as "black and white" even though I don't agree with how far they're carrying the argument. There are extreme situations. Of course, if someone were to break into my house and try to hurt me, I would be proud of my dog trying to protect me. Biting in that situation would not deem her a "dangerous dog" and I'm assuming the law wouldn't see it that way either- I'm hoping a rapist couldn't sue me if he got bitten lol!

But if my dog ever bit in a situation less drastic than that, I would feel personally, as it is my responsibility to make sure my dog is under control and does not hurt a human being, period. I certainly would never risk a situation like that if she ever seemed uneasy around children. I wouldn't put her in that situation, and I certainly would not put a human being at risk for the sake of my dog, no matter how much I love her.

A dog that acts agressive toward people except in the most unusual of circumstances is dangerous, and the owner has the responsibility to deal with this reality and to protect other people who may not be aware. This could involve (in the case of the OP) either not inviting the child into their home, or keeping the dog in a separate area of the house. That is the dog owner's choice, but to ignore the situation was irresponsible.

In the baseball game situation, it's all a matter of degrees. If your dog has bitten or acted aggressivly in the past(again, discounting extreme circumstances), it is too risky to bring them at all. If they don't act completely comfortable, it is reasonable to go and sit far away from people, keeping the dog on a short leash and being attentive at all times. If you cannot control the dog, don't bring it. And I don't care if your dog is the sweetest, gentlest thing ever- if you're bringing it to a public place such as a baseball game where people do not necessarily expect dogs (meaning dog parks are a different situation), you do not have the right to sit in the main seating area (bleachers) and make those who do not want your dog touching them move. Just like those who do not want to be around dogs could not go to a dog park and expect you to remove your dog.

 

[MushyMushy]

Does anyone else think we've gotten a little carried away from the OP and the situation she described?

I kind of left it open as a general question as well as the original situation.

Regarding the dogs in public thing -- and this is related to the original post -- I just think it's important for owners to know their dogs and limitations. My friend saw her dog's aggression as play, and it wasn't. A while back, DH, DD and I went to an ice cream shop and this couple had their little dog with them. They had just ordered and then stood off to the side a little to eat their ice cream and let their dog have a little cup of it too. When someone else stepped up to order, the little dog showed its teeth as it guarded its food and the couple was going, "Awwww, how cute," and cooing over that. I don't care if the dog was little (shih tzu size); its bite would still hurt, and they were encouraging the aggression without even knowing it!

When I was watching Shelter Dogs, one of the methods they used to see if a dog was aggressive was to put the dog in front of a bowl of food, and then they took a fake hand to try to get the bowl. The dogs who were most aggressive usually went after the hand.

My dog (hyper monster lab mix) can be pretty territorial, but any one of us can reach practically into her mouth for food. Which is a good thing considering the things that dog can put in her mouth.

 

[simpilotswife]

Excuse me but I haven't judged anyone. I stated an opinion just like you and because our opinions happen to differ does not make me unkind, judgemental or anything else other than having a different point of view. Sheeshhhhhh.....

Sure you did. You said all parents should control their children...how is that not a judgement? Also where did I say you were being unkind?

You can judge a parent who can't control their child but I'm not allowed to think that that is wrong? Alrighty then....

 

[roseprincess]

I just want to preface this with the following: I love dogs. I'm a dog person and would have several if I could. I have one now, and I've always had one in my life. I grew up around them, and my grandfather was the local dog catcher when I was a kid, so I knew a lot about them. He rescued as many as he could.

Anyway, I went to a friend's (Amy) house the other day with another friend (Mary). Amy has a cocker spaniel, and Mary brought her 3 year old son. I brought my DD, and she's 10. The dog had never been around kids before, so Amy was a bit worried about how he'd react.

He was fine with my DD, because she's bigger and knows how to handle herself around dogs. However, whenever Mary's son would get excited or act the least bit energetic, the dog would get aggressive by jumping up at the son's face and trying to bite him, or he'd chase the boy, growling and nipping at his heels. Again, I know dogs pretty well, and this was definitely aggression and not playing. Amy kept assuring Mary that the dog was just playing too rough, and would apologize.

Whenever the dog would get worked up and growl or get snarly, Amy would lean down and comfort him and say, "Are you okay?" To the dog! Not to the child.



I couldn't believe how casual they were about the whole thing! I was nervous and anxious the whole time, thinking the dog was going to bite a chunk out of the boy's face, so I kept insinuating myself between the dog and child the entire time, and I couldn't relax at all because I was so worried something would happen. And this wasn't even my kid.

I just don't understand how some people can't read their own dogs any better than that! This has happened so many times where I've gone into a home with my kids when they were small and you could just tell the dog was very threatened and feeling territorial. The owner would have the attitude that "this is the dog's house too, so he's not going anywhere."

I love my dog too, but I can guarantee, if someone brings a kid to my house, the dog's going to get locked in my bedroom (Oh poor poor puppy, getting the A/C and television) or getting tied outside during the visit. I think some dogs are absolutely wonderful and calm with little kids, but MINE isn't and I recognize that.

Any thoughts?

I haven't read most of the replies and going by this original post.
My dh, dd, ds, and I have a HUGE problem with dSIL's dog. She has a toy collie, about over 10yrs. old(not sure of the dog's age). Anyways, this dog is the dog from Hell (my dh says)! In hte past 8yrs, we go to SIL and BIL's house for Christmas or Thanksgiving. We go to their house maybe once a yr.
Anyways, when you get close to this dog, it snarls. My dd(who is special needs) is very afraid of dogs to begin with. I don't know why she is afraid of dogs, but she is. Anyways, anytime we go to their house, it is a nightmare with that dog. SiL's dog almost bit my ds a few yrs. back. Thank God nothing has happened. I have told dSIL several times if they can put hte dog in a room with the door closed, etc. or have Mindy(the dog) outside when we are inside. I would square it away with SIL before we would come over, and she would say"okay". But when we get to their house, SIL has the dog running around. She would sometimes put the dog in a room for a while(maybe a half-hour), but then someone (mainly SIL) lets the dog out and lets Mindy roam all over the place. Mindy is a little hyper and roams around the rooms alot.
Unfortunately, my SIL babies the dog quite a bit. She feeds him scraps,lets him roam around wherever it wants. We try not to go to SIL's house that often, maybe once very 2 yrs now, because of the dog. I don't care of the feeding of scraps, but this dog is not freindly with anyone, except to SIL. My dh tried to pet Mindy a couple of yrs back, and it almost bit dh!
It's very frustrating to deal with this situation, esp with dSIL. If dSIL could respect the guests better with hte dog situation, it wouldn't be such an issue with us.
A different situation: a neighbor of mine had us over and some other people over from our neighbood, to thier house recently. She has a dog and she automatically puts the dog in a cage(whatever it is called for dogs) in an upstairs room. My neighbor says she totally understands the situation with my dd, so neighbor didn't have an issue putting her dog in another room with hte door closed. Neighbor says she has her next-door neighbor that is very afraid of dogs and is used to putting hte dog in a cage in a room. Our neighbor doesn't mind having hte dog in a room with hte door close when guests are in her house

I guess some dog owners respect guests in hte house while others don't? . Please no flaming. Thanks!

 

[disneynutt1225]

Just wanted to point out since you live in NY, that in NY if your dog has bitten in the past, you will absolutely be found liable if the dog bites someone and they sue you. That is "black and white" law in New York, anyway.

Who said anything about liability??? The "not everything is black and white" had to do with labeling a dog as dangerous. One dog bite does not make a dog dangerous in the eyes of the law. It DOES however make the owner liable should other dog bites occur. Also, if it's the first dog bite, the owner is not held responsible unless negligence on the part of the owner has occured.

And also, I'm curious where people are making assumptions that it was said to be ok for dogs to run rampant here there and everywhere. Every dog owner that has responded on this thread has discussed the things they would do with their dogs on a LEASH. I repeat.. ON A LEASH. No one said dogs should be allowed to frolick around on the ballfield off a leash and do whatever it so pleased.

 

[MorganLeFey]

Who said anything about liability??? The "not everything is black and white" had to do with labeling a dog as dangerous. One dog bite does not make a dog dangerous in the eyes of the law. It DOES however make the owner liable should other dog bites occur. Also, if it's the first dog bite, the owner is not held responsible unless negligence on the part of the owner has occured.

And also, I'm curious where people are making assumptions that it was said to be ok for dogs to run rampant here there and everywhere. Every dog owner that has responded on this thread has discussed the things they would do with their dogs on a LEASH. I repeat.. ON A LEASH. No one said dogs should be allowed to frolick around on the ballfield off a leash and do whatever it so pleased.

one bite rule

Liability is based on the dog's dangerous propensity to bite:

The "one bite rule" (also known as the "one free bite rule" and the "first bite free rule") is a centuries-old legal principle that shields a dog owner from liability the first time that his dog bites a person. The underlying principle of this rule is that liability is based on "scienter" (i.e., knowledge) that the dog has a dangerous propensity to bite people.

A "dangerous propensity" is any behavior that would make it foreseeable, to a reasonable person, that the same behavior of the dog might someday cause injury to a person. The behavior might include a bite, a snap, growling, lunging, chasing people or animals, jumping playfully upon a person, or just about anything else that would indicate that someday the dog probably would injure someone, provided that the behavior that caused the injury in the present case (a) is sufficiently similar to the behavior that caused the injury in the prior case, and (b) has not been ruled out as a dangerous propensity in the state having jurisdiction. State courts have issued conflicting rulings as to exactly what behavior might constitute a "dangerous propensity":






New York has a limited strict liability statute that makes the owner or custodian of a dangerous dog strictly liable for medical or veterinary bills resulting from any type of injuries inflicted upon a person or animal. Beyond the medical bills, NY is a "one-bite" state, meaning that one may be held liable for dog bites caused by (a) negligence, (b) violation of a leash law or a law prohibiting dogs from "running at large," and (c) ownership of a dog with the knowledge that the dog has a history of injuring people.

 

[goofygirl]

You're entitled to but until you've walked in the shoes of a parent with a severely autistic child, you shouldn't judge.

Then you should be EVER MORE careful about making sure your child is away from dogs, or whatever may be harmful to him/her.

Speaking of leashes, I've seen a whole lot of CHILDREN in my time who ought to be on leashes- but that's a whole other debate!

 

[disneynutt1225]

Beyond the medical bills, NY is a "one-bite" state, meaning that one may be held liable for dog bites caused by (a) negligence, (b) violation of a leash law or a law prohibiting dogs from "running at large," and (c) ownership of a dog with the knowledge that the dog has a history of injuring people.

I think you're a little confused on the one bite rule. Owners are NOT held liable for the first bite in one bite states. This is from the same website you used for your quote (bold emphasis mine):

"One-bite states"
A "one-bite state" (also referred to as a "one free bite" state) adheres to the ancient "one-bite rule." This rule acts as both a shield and a sword, in that it shields dog owners from liability for some dog bites, while it imposes liability (acts like a sword) for other dog bites. Specifically, it provides that:
The dog owner (and everyone else who is connected with the dog) is privileged (or protected) from liability as to the first injury caused by the dog, unless the owner's (or other person's) negligence caused the injury to occur.
The dog owner (and possibly other people, such as harborers and keepers) will be held strictly liable for dog bites and other harm caused by a known dangerous propensity of the dog. For example, if the dog previously bit someone, and the owner knew about it, then the owner will be responsible every time the dog bites anyone else. Liability results from keeping a dog that was known to hurt people. The key to this type of liability is knowledge (which the law often refers to as "scienter").

I will stand corrected on the "dangerous" label. In the eyes of the law, if a dog is determined to have a dangerous propensity (which also happens to include dogs that jump on people playfully), then they are "dangerous" dogs. I happen to disagree with it, but....

Once again, if dogs are leashed, and people are responsible, this should not be an issue. Now back to your regularly scheduled griping....

 

[simpilotswife]

Then you should be EVER MORE careful about making sure your child is away from dogs, or whatever may be harmful to him/her.

Absolutely....but stuff happens.

Speaking of leashes, I've seen a whole lot of CHILDREN in my time who ought to be on leashes- but that's a whole other debate!

Yes it is.

 

[glass slipper girl]

Amy's planning on starting a family very soon, and she could be starting a problem that she has no idea she's doing.

I can tell you from experience that can most definitely be the case! Before DH and I had kids we had 2 dogs; a beagle mix that will still have and a west highland white terrier. The beagle mix is fantastic with kids, ours and other kids; the westie not so much. The first small child she was around was DH's nephew who is a holly terror (in their house the only rule is "don't bug mommy." ). DH's newphew was about 4 at the time. He was running around and the dog running with him not sure what to think, but not showing any signs of aggression. The dog stopped quickly and the child did not so the dog got bumped/kicked. He didn't haul off and kick her but of course she didn't understand that. From that time on, she was very leery of small kids. If she was out in the house around them she'd hide under the furniture and growl so we quickly learned that if kids came over, she needed to be outside or in another area of the house. DH's nephew would seek her out though and almost challenge her. He let her out of our bedroom one evening, without us realizing it and was running around her. He leaned over and she hopped up and nipped him on the face. It didn't actually break the skin, but she did go for his face with her mouth open so had he been on the floor, it probably would have been a bite. He cried and carried on (and we did scold the dog). After that incident we went to "doggie school" with her hoping to help avoid similar situations. She was still nervous with kids around but she didn't growl anymore. We still kept her away from kids when friends with kids came over and didn't bring her to places around kids but when we would be on a walk and would end up walking by kids etc. she didn't seem as upset.

Fast forward 3 years and we have our first child. We had really hopped that she would be OK with a kid that was raised around her. We made sure if she and DS were in the same room, we were right there with him to scoop one of them up if need be. She was great with him as a baby...loved him! Once he started walking it was a different story. One afternoon when DS was about 15 months old she was laying on the floor resting and he was toddling around, not even near her. She got up, no growling, no signs of any problems, walked by him and nipped him on the face. This time she did break the skin, but just barely. At that time I was pregnant with DS #2 and we decided that we just couldn't risk keeping her in our home with that reaction to kids. THat was the 2nd time she had tried to bite a child on the face. She had been my first baby and that was a hard decision to make but we knew with 2 kids that it would be harded to keep them separated and that she just wouldn't be as happy in a home with little kids. Fortunately our area has an organization called "Westie Rescue" so we were able to work with them and find her a new home with a couple in their late 40s with no kids. They knew the reason we were adopting her out and assured the rescue people that they would not be having kids of their own and that any kids in the family who were around were all 12 and up so not "little kids." We still get Christmas cards from them (this was 5 years ago now) and know she's happy and healthy with them. It was really hard to give her up but we felt it was for the best for our kids and for her.

That said...anyone with a dog who has a history of biting really should think twice about brining them out in public. IMHO, for the safety of others moreso but also for the safety of the dog. I know here in our state they have a sort of 3 strike rule for biting dogs. When one of our dogs was a puppy I was playing with them with a toy and the dog got some of my hand with the toy and I got a pretty decent bite. It was obviously not an attack sort of thing, but it broke the skin really well. I did not have an up to date tetanus shot so I went to an emergency clinic to get one. I told them what happened and why I was there (for the shot, not for concern over the wount). They told me that the wound needed to be closed and they could do 2 stitches and hopefully it wouldn't scar or they could put steri-strips on it and it likely would. We did the steri-strips since I didn't care about a scar on my hand. Then they gave me a shot. Before I left though an officer from animal control came to speak to me and write up the incident. I was told I had to bring the dog in to the county for quarantine which was standard procedure for bites. That was the dog's "first strike." If he bit 2 more times, no matter what the circumstances, we would be required to put him down. I explained it was an accident, he wasn't trying to bite me at all...he was going for the toy. It didn't matter though. Wouldn't matter if it was a situation where he was threatened, a member of our family was threatened, he didn't know better etc. If he bit...this happened. We ended up able to do a "home quarantine" because of the situation but we had to fill out all this paperwork and swear to not have anyone outside of our immediate family around the dog, no other animals, couldn't walk him even on a short leash etc. Fortunately he has never shown any inclination towards biting and is fantastic with kids no matter how active they are so we haven't had an issue. If he did show an inclination towards biting, I definitely wouldn't have him out anywhere he would be around kids though. Any time someone visits a clinic b/c of an animal bite the clinic has to report it. Two more bites and my dog is put down. So if he had bitten again, even if I had no concern for others safety and was saying "he has a right to be here" etc., he wouldn't be out in public b/c all it would take is one kid not to listen if I said "don't touch, he bites" and my dog could be put down. I can say that as a parent, if my kid is bitten by a dog and it breaks the skin, more than likely I'd be bringing them to have it checked. If that means your dog gets reported, I'm sorry, but I would still want my kid checked out.

 

[MushyMushy]

That said...anyone with a dog who has a history of biting really should think twice about brining them out in public. IMHO, for the safety of others moreso but also for the safety of the dog. I know here in our state they have a sort of 3 strike rule for biting dogs. When one of our dogs was a puppy I was playing with them with a toy and the dog got some of my hand with the toy and I got a pretty decent bite. It was obviously not an attack sort of thing, but it broke the skin really well. I did not have an up to date tetanus shot so I went to an emergency clinic to get one. I told them what happened and why I was there (for the shot, not for concern over the wount). They told me that the wound needed to be closed and they could do 2 stitches and hopefully it wouldn't scar or they could put steri-strips on it and it likely would. We did the steri-strips since I didn't care about a scar on my hand. Then they gave me a shot. Before I left though an officer from animal control came to speak to me and write up the incident. I was told I had to bring the dog in to the county for quarantine which was standard procedure for bites. That was the dog's "first strike." If he bit 2 more times, no matter what the circumstances, we would be required to put him down. I explained it was an accident, he wasn't trying to bite me at all...he was going for the toy. It didn't matter though. Wouldn't matter if it was a situation where he was threatened, a member of our family was threatened, he didn't know better etc. If he bit...this happened. We ended up able to do a "home quarantine" because of the situation but we had to fill out all this paperwork and swear to not have anyone outside of our immediate family around the dog, no other animals, couldn't walk him even on a short leash etc. Fortunately he has never shown any inclination towards biting and is fantastic with kids no matter how active they are so we haven't had an issue. If he did show an inclination towards biting, I definitely wouldn't have him out anywhere he would be around kids though. Any time someone visits a clinic b/c of an animal bite the clinic has to report it. Two more bites and my dog is put down. So if he had bitten again, even if I had no concern for others safety and was saying "he has a right to be here" etc., he wouldn't be out in public b/c all it would take is one kid not to listen if I said "don't touch, he bites" and my dog could be put down. I can say that as a parent, if my kid is bitten by a dog and it breaks the skin, more than likely I'd be bringing them to have it checked. If that means your dog gets reported, I'm sorry, but I would still want my kid checked out.

Oh wow, how's that for a law that uses no common sense? I was just bit by my dog the same way, but luckily I didn't need to get it checked out. I was playing with her with a toy, and she chomped at it just as I was pulling it away and she nailed my hand. Immediately, she backed off and sat down away from me, because she knew she bit me rather than the toy. I can't imagine a dog getting one strike for something like that.

I just think that some people aren't doing their dogs any favors by putting them in situations where something like that could occur. Some dogs just don't like stressful situations where it's too loud, or too much going on.

 

[snickerharley]

To me my "baby" is my dog, a fiesty Jack Russell Terrier, and until she passes away we will not be even thinking about having children. For me she came first and she does not like children, so first come first serve. I'm glad that there are rescues that do wonderful work for situations concerning children and fiesty dogs that do not get along, and often times the dogs that are agressive twords children are much happier when placed in a family w/o kids.