WDW not educational? BAH.

[MrsPete]

The schools may frown upon not having a child in the seat to get funding, but they're my kids, and as long as their grades are not suffering, I will take them out from time to time for vacations.

Thing is, in my experience, about 95% of the kids' grades do suffer. Yeah, yeah, I know . . . no one on this site has a child who makes anything except straight As in spite of taking several week-long trips every year . . . but in my real life, the vast majority of kids who are out for a vacation don't make up the work at all. Those who do tend to sort of gloss over it as quickly as possible, and usually it's turned in late. So it's a rare, rare kid whose grades don't suffer.

Keyword! No one is saying that you can't take your kids out of school for a VACATION. Trying to disguise it as an "educational" trip is laughable.

Totally agree. I don't think it's a good choice, but it's your choice to make. Just don't pretend it's something it's not.

 

[MrsPete]

So if her district does not allow absences for vacation, she should cancel her trip? Does this mean that if she has a job that won't allow her vacation in the summer or over holidays (lots of retail/restaurant jobs) that she does not get vacation with her children? I mean I'm just wondering how black and white this is?

Did you read my post? Did I say that only educational trips should be allowed? Nope, I'm just saying that you shouldn't lie to yourself about what you're doing. If you want to take your kid to Disney, take him to Disney. But don't pretend that it's the equivalent of a trip to Europe to visit museums and cathedrals.

In my family, it's pretty black and white. Kids go to school 180 days. That leaves 185 days for other things. That's how I raise my kids -- your choices may be different. Few people I know have trouble getting time off when they want it -- especially people in retail/restaurant type work.

 

[golfgal]

So - if you take your children to Plymouth, MA it's a "vacation", but if the school takes them there, it's an "educational field trip"? How about the aquarium in Mystic Seaport? Or the Bronx Zoo? All places where kids are taken on "educational field trips".. To qualify as "educational" is there a requirement that states there can be no aspect of it that's "fun"?

When we took DGD to WDW in 2006, her teacher had her write a report on something she learned while she was there.. She did hers on the exhibits in Animal Kingdom - a park in which she went on only 2 rides - both of which contained educational aspects.. So yes -it can be "educational" - if one chooses to make time for the educational aspects..

The difference is that when the school goes on a field trip to the zoo it is a school activity, the kids are 'in' school for that day and they are all doing the same thing so attendance is not an issue vs one kid from a class missing school to go to the zoo.

Much as I love AK-it is pretty much a glorified Zoo-taking your kid out of school to go to the Zoo would be frowned upon also.


OP=I think your DD is embaressed that you want to claim a WDW is educational-and knows the teachers will think so also. Although the school will accept your claim-you will become "one of those parents"-KWIM?

I agree.

If your schools did not have attendance issues, they wouldn't have to put these strict policies in place. One school I know of would have parents pulling kids out of school to go shopping, tanning, out to eat, hair cuts, etc. They implemented a policy where you got 8 absences/trimester. If you went over those days you failed your classes, period. The only way to get absences over those 8 days excused was with a doctor's note. The outcry from the parents was amazing but that is 24 days/school year that you can miss for any reason. It was really silly that parents thought this was a big deal actually.

They don't have a set number of days that is acceptable to miss in our schools, they say 'excessive absences". Not many people pull their kids out for vacations in our high school. The kids just miss way too much and have WAY too much homework to make up when they get back. Teachers do NOT give homework in advance if you are going to miss for a vacation (they do if it is a school sponsored absence though) and rightly so I think. A friend of DD's family went on a vacation 2 weeks before spring break last year and she did get a warning note that if she missed any more school for that trimester she would fail her classes-mainly because they could have taken their vacation 2 weeks later and not missed ANY school (they went on a cruise).

As far as Disney being educational-not really. I do think it is silly that parents try to justify a family vacation and pulling their kids out of school for ANY vacation as being "educational". We took our kids out ONCE for a family vacation. Dh had a work trip that I was invited to go along to Arizona. We have some good friends that live there and wanted us to bring the kids. The kids missed 5 days of school, mainly because we got a family vacation for the price of the kids' airfares (which came to about $450) so we just couldn't pass it up. Was it educational, I suppose, we went to the Grand Canyon, Sedona and a few other tourist sites, but it was just a cheep vacation.

 

[jrmasm]

Thing is, in my experience, about 95% of the kids' grades do suffer. Yeah, yeah, I know . . . no one on this site has a child who makes anything except straight As in spite of taking several week-long trips every year . . . but in my real life, the vast majority of kids who are out for a vacation don't make up the work at all. Those who do tend to sort of gloss over it as quickly as possible, and usually it's turned in late. So it's a rare, rare kid whose grades don't suffer.Totally agree. I don't think it's a good choice, but it's your choice to make. Just don't pretend it's something it's not.

First of all, my first grader's grades are not going to suffer so she gets to go, my 10th grader's grades would suffer so she doesn't get to go on this trip.

One thing I'm curious about, are you suggesting that instead of filling out the stupid form that I have the 1st grader take 4 unexcused days instead?

 

[MushyMushy]

Thing is, in my experience, about 95% of the kids' grades do suffer. Yeah, yeah, I know . . . no one on this site has a child who makes anything except straight As in spite of taking several week-long trips every year . . . but in my real life, the vast majority of kids who are out for a vacation don't make up the work at all. Those who do tend to sort of gloss over it as quickly as possible, and usually it's turned in late. So it's a rare, rare kid whose grades don't suffer.Totally agree. I don't think it's a good choice, but it's your choice to make. Just don't pretend it's something it's not.

Nope, she's not straight A, not even close. She's in special ed to boot. She'll make up the work, just as she would if she were out sick for 3 days with the flu.

Now the friend she's taking, yes, that kid is straight A all the way, smart as a whip. No doubt she'll have a pile of work to make up, but luckily she's motivated enough that her mom won't have to worry about her getting it done.

I can't believe I just admitted to causing the educational downfall of two kids.

 

[Kathi OD]

For the 10th time, the only way to take kids out of school in PA is to disguise vacations as 'education'.

I've taken my kids out of PA public schools plenty of times without calling our vacations educational trips with no problems at all. I think it depends on the amount of power your administrators feel they need to wield.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

One thing I'm curious about, are you suggesting that instead of filling out the stupid form that I have the 1st grader take 4 unexcused days instead?

Yes. That's the honest thing to do.

 

[Kathi OD]

Thing is, in my experience, about 95% of the kids' grades do suffer. Yeah, yeah, I know . . . no one on this site has a child who makes anything except straight As in spite of taking several week-long trips every year . . . but in my real life, the vast majority of kids who are out for a vacation don't make up the work at all. Those who do tend to sort of gloss over it as quickly as possible, and usually it's turned in late. So it's a rare, rare kid whose grades don't suffer.Totally agree. I don't think it's a good choice, but it's your choice to make. Just don't pretend it's something it's not.

I'll disagree with you. This may be YOUR experience, but mine is vastly different. Maybe I've just been lucky enough to work with families where the parents make sure the kids do what needs to be done, frequently before they even leave on the vacation.

 

[jrmasm]

Yes. That's the honest thing to do.

Really? When I fill out the form, I tell them where we're going and the 'derived' educational benefit. The days are then approved. I'm guessing that means from the school's perspective I'm not being dishonest.

 

[jrmasm]

I've taken my kids out of PA public schools plenty of times without calling our vacations educational trips with no problems at all. I think it depends on the amount of power your administrators feel they need to wield.

I did make an assumption earlier in the thread. It does look like what is allowable by PA law is interpreted at a district level.

 

[design_mom]

ne thing I'm curious about, are you suggesting that instead of filling out the stupid form that I have the 1st grader take 4 unexcused days instead?

Yes. That's the honest thing to do.

I am about the biggest stickler for following the rules/honesty that you'll find. However, I disagree with you.

It would be dishonest to fill out the form saying you're taking the kids to Paris to see the museums, and take them to the French pavilion at EPCOT instead. It would be dishonest to claim to be taking them on safari and take them on Kilimanjaro Safaris instead. It would be dishonest to tell the school that you're taking them to an "engineering workshop" when you're really having them ride The Sum of All Thrills. It would dishonest to take them on vacation then tell the school they were "sick."

However, if you're honest about where you're going, then it's up to the school to decide if it meets their requirements to qualify as "educational."

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

I'm a school administrator, I'm also a parent who has pulled their child out of school to go to WDW, as recently, in fact, as last week.

I recognize 100% that parents do educational things with their kids all the time. The other day I was driving my son and a friend to the swimming pool (I drive this kid a lot) and they asked me whether the "Our Lady" in "Our Lady of Sorrows" church (which we passed) was related to the "Our Lady" in the "Our Lady of Mercy" School their friend attends -- which lead to a conversation about Catholicism, and the meaning of the names of the states Mary and Virginia, and the Protestant revolution and the English Royal family . . . On the way home, we were listening to a retelling of the King Arthur story on CD, and paused the CD to talk about he different views of women in different retellings, and how they change the story according to both the culture it's being presented in and the target audeince. Both conversations were definitely educational, but I'm not going to submit a request that the school excuse my kid so we can drive to the swimming pool and talk on the way.

When I approve a request for excused absence on educational grounds, the trip has to have an educational component, AND a reason why it has to happen during the school day. My son's middle school is closed for election day, and he's going to volunteer at the polls -- a great learning experience IMO. My school is open on that day, and if one of the students asked to take the day off to volunteer I'd approve it, because it's not like they can decide to work at the polls in July when school's out. Similarly, we had a family that took their kids out for two months to travel to Uzbekistan because the father got some kind of fellowship -- since we're a charter school we could only hold their space for that long if it was "excused" which we did, because it was a once in a lifetime opportunity. I know when I was in high school I was excused to go to a major debate tournament, and I also know friends whose kids have been excused to go to Special Olympics events -- you can't choose the time for those.

But, even if they're learning a lot, the learning that happens at WDW can happen at a different time. Families go to WDW during the school year because it works for them, for their budget, or their preferences as far as weather, or whatever, not because it's a once in a lifetime opportunity. And I'm fine with that, but when they do they need to understand that the school system doesn't have the same responsibility to them. If one of my students is out for an "excused absence" of a week, because they're sick or their parent died or whatever, their teacher has a responsibility to do whatever they need to do to catch that kid up. If they're out for an unexcused absence, then the parents shoulder that responsibility. Teachers can, and do help. When my son was out last week his math teacher met with him the day before he left during study hall to review the lesson he'd miss, his reading teacher made sure the study guide for the test he'd miss was available early, and let him take it during lunch on the day he came back. They did these things out of the goodness of their hearts, and I'm grateful, but it's not a requirement.

When I went in to make the request, I simply told the school "My son will miss one day of school next week due to a family trip". They said "please put it in writing" and he was classified as "unexcused, parent approved" which basically means, he doesn't have our permission/blessing, but we know he's safe we aren't sending out the police to look for him, or calling his emergency contacts etc . . .

 

[MushyMushy]

Yes. That's the honest thing to do.

How is it dishonest to fill out the form provided by my district? It gives the principals the opportunity to look at it and say, "Ah, but WDW isn't educational, so we're declining it."

They won't. But that's beside the point. There is nothing dishonest about me filling out this form.

 

[Buckalew11]

Actually, as a former homeschooler, I can tell you that two hours a day is just about right for the formal school curriculum in the primary grades.One morning's work would usually have us AHEAD of the curriculum goals for that day.

The problem is that public school is designed to teach large groups of children all at once. There's a lot of "wasted" time, not just in moving from class-to-class and getting the kids seated and paying attention, but also in the basics of teaching large numbers all at once.

At any point, while half the class is actively learning, the other half is distracted or just marking time. When you have one student, you can move on the minute they master the topic. But when you have 30, you need to constantly play catch-up, bringing up the slower ones while you keep the faster learners out of your hair with busy work.

I have nothing but the GREATEST admiration for teachers and the job they do. But the fact remains that two hours is probably a reasonable estimate of the amount of actual academic learning that goes on in a typical school day.

On a slightly different topic - I'm personally surprised at any system that would punish a 2nd or 3rd grader for an unexcused absence by dropping their grade from an A to a C. What if the child had missed those same days because they had the flu? Presumably, their overall learning achievements would be the same, and yet because their absence is "excused", their grades won't suffer. That's an awfully steep penalty for attendance!

Grades should reflect actual learning and progress over the course of the year, not whether a child's butt is in a specific seat every day.

Just to comment on the part I bolded--in the state of TN it is mandatory to homeschool for 4 hours a day. I think that sounds about right for elementary grades. My HSer is homeschooled (Independent Study Program) and spends from 7-3 easily every day with a 30 min. break for lunch. So those hours definitely increase in upper grade levels.

All states are different, I'm sure.

Oh and Mushy, I also understood the tone of your post. Fun idea, but didn't work.

 

[golfgal]

I'm a school administrator, I'm also a parent who has pulled their child out of school to go to WDW, as recently, in fact, as last week.

I recognize 100% that parents do educational things with their kids all the time. The other day I was driving my son and a friend to the swimming pool (I drive this kid a lot) and they asked me whether the "Our Lady" in "Our Lady of Sorrows" church (which we passed) was related to the "Our Lady" in the "Our Lady of Mercy" School their friend attends -- which lead to a conversation about Catholicism, and the meaning of the names of the states Mary and Virginia, and the Protestant revolution and the English Royal family . . . On the way home, we were listening to a retelling of the King Arthur story on CD, and paused the CD to talk about he different views of women in different retellings, and how they change the story according to both the culture it's being presented in and the target audeince. Both conversations were definitely educational, but I'm not going to submit a request that the school excuse my kid so we can drive to the swimming pool and talk on the way.

When I approve a request for excused absence on educational grounds, the trip has to have an educational component, AND a reason why it has to happen during the school day. My son's middle school is closed for election day, and he's going to volunteer at the polls -- a great learning experience IMO. My school is open on that day, and if one of the students asked to take the day off to volunteer I'd approve it, because it's not like they can decide to work at the polls in July when school's out. Similarly, we had a family that took their kids out for two months to travel to Uzbekistan because the father got some kind of fellowship -- since we're a charter school we could only hold their space for that long if it was "excused" which we did, because it was a once in a lifetime opportunity. I know when I was in high school I was excused to go to a major debate tournament, and I also know friends whose kids have been excused to go to Special Olympics events -- you can't choose the time for those.

But, even if they're learning a lot, the learning that happens at WDW can happen at a different time. Families go to WDW during the school year because it works for them, for their budget, or their preferences as far as weather, or whatever, not because it's a once in a lifetime opportunity. And I'm fine with that, but when they do they need to understand that the school system doesn't have the same responsibility to them. If one of my students is out for an "excused absence" of a week, because they're sick or their parent died or whatever, their teacher has a responsibility to do whatever they need to do to catch that kid up. If they're out for an unexcused absence, then the parents shoulder that responsibility. Teachers can, and do help. When my son was out last week his math teacher met with him the day before he left during study hall to review the lesson he'd miss, his reading teacher made sure the study guide for the test he'd miss was available early, and let him take it during lunch on the day he came back. They did these things out of the goodness of their hearts, and I'm grateful, but it's not a requirement.

When I went in to make the request, I simply told the school "My son will miss one day of school next week due to a family trip". They said "please put it in writing" and he was classified as "unexcused, parent approved" which basically means, he doesn't have our permission/blessing, but we know he's safe we aren't sending out the police to look for him, or calling his emergency contacts etc . . .

This is a GREAT distinction between the two and pretty much how our school deals with these. If you take time off for a vacation the teachers do NOT give work in advance, the STUDENT has to get the missed assignments when they get back and they get two days for every day missed to get it turned back in.

 

[MushyMushy]

Oh and Mushy, I also understood the tone of your post. Fun idea, but didn't work.

I'm starting to get how my poor husband feels. He has an oddball sense of humor that very often falls flat. He'll make a comment in a big group of people and then you'll hear crickets chirping and an uncomfortable throat clearing. I usually laugh out loud to make him feel better.

So for you all who are LOLing with me and not clearing their throats,

 

[MushyMushy]

This is a GREAT distinction between the two and pretty much how our school deals with these. If you take time off for a vacation the teachers do NOT give work in advance, the STUDENT has to get the missed assignments when they get back and they get two days for every day missed to get it turned back in.

We just get one day per day missed, and it'll be up to the individual teacher what happens. Some might go ahead and give her the work in advance and some might say, "Just go, have fun and make it up when you get back." Either way, we'll work with her to make sure she doesn't get behind.

 

[pperfectmom]

How is it dishonest to fill out the form provided by my district? It gives the principals the opportunity to look at it and say, "Ah, but WDW isn't educational, so we're declining it."

They won't. But that's beside the point. There is nothing dishonest about me filling out this form.

On our last trip I decided that I was not even going to attempt the whole "educational" trip business and just sent in a letter a couple weeks beforehand saying we were going to WDW and would be missing 4 days. Both teachers sent home forms to fill out for the educational exemption and pretty much insisted I fill them out. All days were excused whether I wanted it or not. But, as a disclaimer, we are in a poor area of the country and I highly doubt very many kids here ever take off for vacation purposes.

 

[CathrynRose]

None of us would take our HIGH SCHOOL aged kid out of school to go to the Zoo-right?

.

I did. I didn't bother disguising it as educational - I called him in sick.

It was my mom's, his grandma's birthday - April 23rd. She's dead. It was beautiful outside, after the cold and yuck of winter. And we were missing her.

I thought it was a perfect day for the Zoo. My son agreed.

 

[design_mom]

And I'm fine with that, but when they do they need to understand that the school system doesn't have the same responsibility to them. If one of my students is out for an "excused absence" of a week, because they're sick or their parent died or whatever, their teacher has a responsibility to do whatever they need to do to catch that kid up. If they're out for an unexcused absence, then the parents shoulder that responsibility. Teachers can, and do help. When my son was out last week his math teacher met with him the day before he left during study hall to review the lesson he'd miss, his reading teacher made sure the study guide for the test he'd miss was available early, and let him take it during lunch on the day he came back. They did these things out of the goodness of their hearts, and I'm grateful, but it's not a requirement.

I don't think that's how it works at my school. Regardless of whether it's excused or unexcused, the teacher is not required to give work in advance, nor spend extra time teaching the child the lesson. That is the parents' responsibility regardless of the nature of the absence.

The difference at our school is that if an absence is "excused" the teacher must allow the missed work to be made up without a late penalty... and must allow the student to take any tests/quizzes that were missed. For an unexcused absence, accepting make-up work is left to the teacher's discretion. (I can't imagine any of my kids' teachers not allowing make-up work, but with an "excused" absence, everyone is on the same page.)

If a school chooses *not* to excuse a trip to WDW, that is their option. (You do make some valid points.) However, I don't see anything dishonest about requesting an excused absence as long as you're honest about where you're going. The school is free to say no.