Walking Solutions Contest

[Marionnette]

They pretty much tell you you can get more after you first three are done.

"After you enjoy your third FastPass+ experience, you’re free to make another selection at an in-park kiosk or on your mobile device. Use that one, then get one more (based on availability)―and repeat!"

I was using this "loophole" last June before I ever visited any Disney forums.

Ah, but they didn't tell you to refresh, refresh, refresh, did they? How many visitors check the app or kiosk for that next FP only to see that the only thing left is a FP to ITTBAB? Clueless Joe has no idea that if he keeps refreshing, Disney sometimes drops additional FOP FPs into the system, so he doesn't refresh, refresh, refresh. He takes the ITTBAB FP. That's why he is standing in a 2-hour line for FOP. Disney don't draw a road map for FPs and DVC doesn't provide a roadmap for walking. Just because it isn't written explicitly some place that something is permissible, that doesn't automatically make it wrong.

 

[Pooh12863]

Ah, but they didn't tell you to refresh, refresh, refresh, did they? How many visitors check the app or kiosk for that next FP only to see that the only thing left is a FP to ITTBAB? Clueless Joe has no idea that if he keeps refreshing, Disney sometimes drops additional FOP FPs into the system, so he doesn't refresh, refresh, refresh. He takes the ITTBAB FP. That's why he is standing in a 2-hour line for FOP. Disney don't draw a road map for FPs and DVC doesn't provide a roadmap for walking. Just because it isn't written explicitly some place that something is permissible, that doesn't automatically make it wrong.

I'm going to agree to disagree and bow out to allow the thread to get back to it's intended purpose.

 

[chicagodisneyguy]

I think my suggestion would be only one modification per reservation within the 11 month window to the original check in date. Any subsequent changes would be cancel and re-book. So if you book Jan 1 to Jan 7 you could only change the start date, to say the Jan 7-Jan 13, one time. If you make that change and then want to change to Jan 13 to Jan 20 you would have to cancel and re book like everyone else. Sure people can still walk a week, but that's better than some of the examples I've seen where people walk for months. Allowing the one modification also allow the person that books Thursday to Tuesday, then realized Friday to Wednesday works better, the option to change without losing their desired room. For anyone who has to change dates 5 times in the first week of booking you just need to plan better. And even though I have zero evidence to back it up, I bet if you looked at 100 random reservations that are modified significantly in the first weeks after booking, >90% would be walking versus legitimate date changes. I don't mean adding or losing one day. I mean shifting reservations a whole week.

I don't know if Disney could/would want to build that into their website so I would even suggest making that one change call-in only with Member Services. Allowing only member services to make that change could even leave it open where in extenuating circumstances a supervisor could even grant a second change in that time frame (military orders changing, school calendar shifting, etc). There wouldn't be many instances where people would legitimately need to change so many times so far out, so this would give MS the power to make a change if they deem it reasonable. Kind of how sometimes airlines refund or change non-refundable or non-changeable tickets.

I say this rule only applies to check in date because I think people who book 7 days should be able to add more nights to their reservation up to say, the 14 nights, that was purposed up thread. People booking longer stays aren't booking rooms with the intent to cancel them later, so I don't think they should be punished.

While walking isn't explicitly banned in the POS or DVC rules, I don't know of any lodging company which wants customers to take rooms out of inventory with zero intention of staying in them. People doing this in the CRO side is the exact reason Disney is changing the 60 day onsite fastpass rule. People are taking rooms out of Disney's inventory and dumping it back on them with little time to then sell it. I'm active on several mile/points forums and hotel & airline companies have been know to ban customers who book too many flights/hotel rooms with zero intention of using them. Sure, people end up in the rooms after walkers con't their walk. But if two members are trying to grab the released days and member 1 gets the first day and member 2 gets the second day and so on they end up with mishmash of worthless days. If i was one of the members trying for those released days I'd rather get my whole stay or miss out completely and book a different room. Having the inventory removed by members who don't want it isn't prohibited, but it also isn't in the best interest of the whole membership. DVC is charged with doing what's in the best interest of the entire membership. While people can make arguments that it's not against the rules, I don't know how anyone can make the argument the entire membership is better off allowing walking.

Short of lessening the spread between the highly sought out, lower point rooms and the regular rooms (and jacking up AKL Concierge even higher) I don't know how else to get people to stop walking.

 

[drusba]

My main view is that walking should be left as is. It is not against the rules and is needed for some rooms at some times of the year. Moreover, those that feel it is an issue should consider not making any requests to DVC to stop it or offer possible solutions as to how to stop it. Why? Because based on DVC's conduct over the last 10 years, the result you are likely to get is something much worse than you ever dreamed possible. For example, DVC's ideal solution would likely be to raise by 20% (or even 40% over a two year period) the points needed for BWV standard and boardwalk view studios, AKV club level and value studios, BLT standard view studios, and VGF studios, the ones principally affected by walking, and thus reduce the desire and ability of members to reserve those rooms, with the result that they will become readily available at 11 months out, and, of course, DVC would just say it was in response to the overwhelming feedback from members on the problems concerning walking.

 

[Marionnette]

The walking problem existed long before the ability to modify reservations online. Certainly, it has become easier to do as a result of this change. So perhaps the solution is to make it harder to walk a reservation, not to change the rules so that other members are negatively impacted.

You have to ensure that those who want to stay longer than 7 nights can do so with no penalty for adding on nights or making them compete (again) with other owners just so they can stay in the same villa for those extra nights.

You have to come up with a solution that doesn't penalize those with fewer points, or give mega-owners an advantage. So, only permitting a given number of free modifications favors those with more points. Mega-owners would just add more nights on until they reach their desired dates and then drop the ones they don't want.

You need a solution that doesn't require a phone call to MS to make a modification, which is difficult for owners who live overseas or have work schedules that don't allow for calling during MS hours. It also adds to operating costs, which drives dues up for everyone.

I really don't have a solution that doesn't involve one of those three things. And I don't think that DVC has one, either. That's why we haven't seen them take action. In all honesty, only a small number of villas even need to be walked all of the time with a select few others that might require a walk some of the time. I can't get behind any solution to the walking problem that is going to negatively impact all members because a small percentage of villas are hard to get.

 

[Chuck S]

I don't agree with your point on more housekeeping, your 10 day trip will use 3 rounds of housekeeping 4, 8, and 10. Your possible split stay will use 3 rounds of housekeeping 4, 7 and 3 on the second room.

+2 Full cleanings, your original room upon check-out, and making your new room ready for check-in.

 

[IrishEye]

My suggestion would be to allow a change to the original check in date 1 time, 2nd time $200 charge, 3rd time cancel and re-book.

 

[Chuck S]

My suggestion would be to allow a change to the original check in date 1 time, 2nd time $200 charge, 3rd time cancel and re-book.

I doubt cash penalties would pass legal muster, as no such thing was set out in the the original purchase.

 

[Bearval]

So lets see if as a group we can come up with a solution on how to stop walking with the minimal impact to non-walkers. So all suggestions are welcomed. Then feel free to point out the problems with the suggestion. If we come up with something reasonable someone can always send it off to Disney.

Here's my idea to get started.

When making a reservation, keep track of the original check-in date when the reservation was first made. Then if any modification changes the check-in date of the reservation by more than 7 days after the original check-in date, don't allow the modification.

So basically I could walk for just under 1 week, but after that I would have to cancel the reservation. This would still allow people to make adjustments due to flights. Here my assumption being that people just modify their reservation by a couple of days either way when booking their flight.

This then doesn't involve adding any fees per modifications or limiting the number of modification you could make. It just limits how far away your final check-in date can be from your original check-in date.

How about you can only make modifications at the 11 month window (with the exception of adding days)if the day after your last day is available to be booked by anyone at 11 months and then you can make unlimited modifications. You would have to compete like everyone else for that open date. The only people who would get punished with this would be a walker.

 

[Pooh12863]

I doubt cash penalties would pass legal muster, as no such thing was set out in the the original purchase.

Are reservation modifications even mentioned in the POS?

 

[Chuck S]

Are reservation modifications even mentioned in the POS?

Yes and no. There is no reason to mention reservation modifications specifically, as they still follow the general booking rules of availability, 11/7 window, cancelling 31 days or more before arrival, holding points, and so forth, like any reservation.

 

[Chuck S]

How about you can only make modifications at the 11 month window (with the exception of adding days)if the day after your last day is available to be booked by anyone at 11 months and then you can make unlimited modifications. You would have to compete like everyone else for that open date. The only people who would get punished with this would be a walker.

To what overall benefit? Those members with more points could simply hold the reservation long enough for any restriction to expire, then drop days from the beginning...again benefiting those with lots of points and further hurting the small contract members.

 

[Pooh12863]

Yes and no. There is no reason to mention reservation modifications specifically, as they still follow the general booking rules of availability, 11/7 window, cancelling 31 days or more before arrival, holding points, and so forth, like any reservation.

I don’t believe there is anything in the contracts we all signed that would prevent DVC from taking any actions they wish in reference to reservation modifications. I believe they could legally make you cancel and reschedule to make a modifications, or charge a fee for allowing it at all.

 

[Chuck S]

I don’t believe there is anything in the contracts we all signed that would prevent DVC from taking any actions they wish in reference to reservation modifications. I believe they could legally make you cancel and reschedule to make a modifications, or charge a fee for allowing it at all.

I would think, since we are NOT charged to simply cancel a reservation, nor charged to book a reservation (that should be covered under the management fees in our dues) that modifications would also be covered under that component. Or else what is Member Services for?

 

[Deb & Bill]

They just need to go back to making reservations by check-out date instead of check-in date. And you can book by the night if you like and combine the nights into one reservation.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

They just need to go back to making reservations by check-out date instead of check-in date. And you can book by the night if you like and combine the nights into one reservation.

They stopped that for valid reasons IMO.

Nope - just stick with what it is. No "solutions" are needed as this is a perceived problem for a handful of rooms and a handful of people that seem to believe they would be able to book anything they wanted if there were no "walkers". I argue that they still wouldn't get anything they wanted anytime they wanted if this change were made. That wasn't happening way back with the other booking rules either and there were just as many complaints - maybe more. There's too few Concierge rooms, value rooms and a few other views or low point rooms for the demand. Better to build an expectation that it's great if you can get them but if you can't then book something else and move on. Waitlists work too.

 

[Pooh12863]

I would think, since we are NOT charged to simply cancel a reservation, nor charged to book a reservation (that should be covered under the management fees in our dues) that modifications would also be covered under that component. Or else what is Member Services for?

I agree, but the discussion was what they could legally do. Legally, I don't think they even have to allow modifications.

 

[drusba]

I agree, but the discussion was what they could legally do. Legally, I don't think they even have to allow modifications.

One of the official documents is the Home Resort Rules and Regulations. Those have always covered and allowed cancellation and rebooking and modifications of reservations. Those particularly point out that if you cancel a reservation and it had banked or borrowed points, or was cancelled beyond the banking date, you have to make a new reservation using those points for before the end of the use year or they will expire. The rules also provide that a modification of a reservation can be done, and if you modify a reservation more than 30 days out, any excess points resulting from the modification go back into your account, but if you modify 30 or fewer days out, those leftover points go into holding.

It is possible those rules could be amended, but, since the time DVC began, those rules have specifically allowed both cancellations/rebookings and modications of reservations.

On another point, the DVC entities cannot charge members anything for making or changing reservations at any DVC resorts. The agreements concerning the reservation systems specifically provide for the only payments DVCMC (responsible for home resort reservations) and BVTC (responsible for reservations made at 7 months out) can get for any creation, operation, or use of any reservation system that is used by members for reserving DVC resorts. Those payments are limited to the management fee (12% of the annual budget excluding certain items in the budget), which payment goes to DVCMC, the $1 per member DVC Reservation Component fee in the annual dues (which goes to BVTC), the breakage income that exceeds the amount required to be used as a set-off for dues (BVTC gets the breakage income up to an amount that equals its annual costs plus 5% of such costs, and amounts above that go to DVCMC), and fees that can be charged for members' trading out to non-DVC resorts (BVTC gets those).

Every now and then someone mentions that we should do away with something like walking or other reservation activity because it adds too much to annual dues to pay for it. The fact is that DVCMC and BVTC could spend very little on a reservation system or many millions on the reservation systems and applicable MS personnel, and your dues in either case would not change one dime because the management fee is always 12% of the budget regardless of what DVCMC does, the $1 per member DVC Reservation Component dues item cannot be raised or lowered, and breakage income over and above that used to set-off dues is not a dues item. And if you ever wonder why the DVC reservation system breaks down all the time, and why it can take forever to get anyone on the phone, consider this: the less the DVC entities pay for the reservation systems and related employees, the more profit they can make out of the membership fee and breakage income.

 

[robinb]

These are all solutions in search of a problem. Walkers are not doing anything that every other DVC member can do if they wished to. In addition, walking only affects a small number of booking categories and most of them are only during the most popular times. So all this Strum und Drang is over what ... 20-30 rooms across all of DVC?

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

These are all solutions in search of a problem. Walkers are not doing anything that every other DVC member can do if they wished to. In addition, walking only affects a small number of booking categories and most of them are only during the most popular times. So all this Strum und Drang is over what ... 20-30 rooms across all of DVC?

And only for certain time periods.