Vaccinations

[Wonderlandmom]

Meanwhile, I will pit my son's lifetime health record against anyone's. Proof's in the pudding, folks!

Is he the 2 yr 10 month old in the picture?

 

[tedhowe]

I know it is reassuring to think there are some sweet little men in white coats somewhere trying to save the world w/ their medicine.....they don't exist.

Okay, the hyperbole is getting pretty thick in here.

I know that those people exist because I have a close relative who is one of those "people in white coats" trying to save the world.

She works for a large, multinational pharmaceutical company in research for vaccines. She doesn't have horns or a red cape. She is not the devil.

There are very real people who are spending their careers trying to help all of us.

Big pharma is not any more or less evil than GM or Walmart or Microsoft or Exxon. There are good and bad aspects to every one of those companies. All of them (and the big pharmas) are motivated by profit, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people working there who aren't trying to make a better world.

As for vaccines, both of our daughters have had all of their vaccines, but not always on the schedule the Doctors recommended. When we spoke to our pediatrician, she said that one reason the vaccines had gotten so loaded into a few "rounds" of shots was because if they were split out, far fewer people would come back and get all the vaccines. She was okay with the idea of spreading them out if the parents wanted - we has several extra visits to the pediatrician's office to get the vaccines done, but we felt more comfortable with it.

I am 100% pro vaccine. I think that its one of the things we can do which will most likely help improve our children's chances of leading happy, healthy lives.

Those people who have a personal or familiar history of adverse reactions should be comfortable in their choice not to vaccinate - and shouldn't be ridiculed for it.

Those people who fear adverse reactions or autism and therefore don't vaccinate are not, I think, being honest in their reasoning. Statistically there's no doubt in my mind that kids are better off vaccinated than not.

 

[Crankyshank]

Originally Posted by 3jsmommy
I know it is reassuring to think there are some sweet little men in white coats somewhere trying to save the world w/ their medicine.....they don't exist.

Smmoafg!!! Now that is complete and utter BS. I work in the medical community. I know for a freaking fact those people are out there in pretty large numbers. I encounter them daily!

 

[Nikel]

Those people who fear adverse reactions or autism and therefore don't vaccinate are not, I think, being honest in their reasoning. Statistically there's no doubt in my mind that kids are better off vaccinated than not.

Since you know what's in my head better than I do, what is my reasoning then?

 

[LadyShiva]

Those people who have a personal or familiar history of adverse reactions should be comfortable in their choice not to vaccinate - and shouldn't be ridiculed for it.

Hey, Nikel, did you read the above in Ted's post?

You seem to be trying to read offense into people's posts again.

Brandie

 

[tiggersmom2]

Smmoafg!!! Now that is complete and utter BS. I work in the medical community. I know for a freaking fact those people are out there in pretty large numbers. I encounter them daily!

Honestly Jenn, it's a lost cause....just let it go. If these people are disparaging doctors and the whole medical community, do you really think they give a flip what other educated folks, like us, in the medical community think?!

It is sad that ALL of the medical community is pro-vax and yet there are those that discredit everything they recommend b/c they "know" better......

Yeah, whatever, but don't expect those of us in the medical community to think what you are doing is anything except irresponsible.

 

[tedhowe]

Since you know what's in my head better than I do, what is my reasoning then?

Nikel,

Why are you trying to pick a fight here? Did I not clearly state that I feel people in your situation are totally justified in not wanting to have vaccinations?

There are two parts to the equation in my mind... the statistical and the personal. Personal trumps the statistical, as it should because it has a more direct correlation with possible future reactions.

But absent personal experience (meaning family history or individual history - not anecdotal evidence of non-genetically related individuals) to the contrary, I feel that the responsible thing to do is to vaccinate.

Were I in your situation, I would not have any further vaccinations for small children in my family. I would at a minimum wait until they were older - and then I would think long and hard about it.

But, I think that people who don't vaccinate because of possible complications are reacting in a similar way to those people who are afraid of strangers snatching their children from the street - even when the statistics show that that is extremely rare.

My belief is that both of these reactions are based on emotion instead of rational thought.

I'm not even saying there is anything wrong with that, but its not the strictly rational thing to do.

 

[TinkerbellMama]

There is no sound point but that the most vocal part of the DIS will miss it.
I thank you all for the personal digs, but you misunderstood my last post nearly in its entirety (especially about the lifetime health record).
I must say I am not in the least surprised!

 

[BelleBoo&AmisMum]

It is sad that ALL of the medical community is pro-vax and yet there are those that discredit everything they recommend b/c they "know" better......

But that's the point not ALL doctors are pro-vax. There are doctors that question vaccines. Our own pediatrician doesn't vax her kids, either does our chiropractor, our pulmonologist did selective vax on her kids due to allergies.

I'm really really tired of the you're with us or against us mentality. And that is a blanket statement.

 

[Minniemouse07]

There are two parts to the equation in my mind... the statistical and the personal. Personal trumps the statistical, as it should because it has a more direct correlation with possible future reactions.

But absent personal experience (meaning family history or individual history - not anecdotal evidence of non-genetically related individuals) to the contrary, I feel that the responsible thing to do is to vaccinate.

Then there are those that combine the two "parts." There are those of us that take our family medical history into account... and then do all the research. We read vaccination books, journal articles, research and yes, find some information on the internet... on both sides of the vaccination fence. We research the diseases, possible complications and the worldwide incidence rates. We read the manufacturer's inserts that come with the vaccines, learn the efficacy rates, consider all the possible side effects. We confer w/ a variety of medical professionals and have ongoing conversations w/ them regarding the latest info on diseases and vaccines.

We are NOT crazy people that "heard" from somewhere that our friend's, friend's cousin had a kid w/ autism. We are parents that spend hundreds of hours culling through information so we can make educated decisions regarding our families.

And after all that research, some of us come to a different conclusion that vaccinating our children ISN'T the responsible thing to do...for OUR children.

I know for me that my research didn't ever end. I did hundreds of hours of research before dd was born over 6yrs ago. At that time our decision was to selectively vax her on a schedule that spaced them out over time. Through experience and MUCH more research we decided after dd's 4yr check up to totally stop vaccinating, and ds (21mo) isn't vaxed at all.

Is this my final decision...not by a long shot. I will continue to research and make decisions as new data is discovered and new information is available. I know as of right now if my children don't build up a natural immunity to chicken pox before they are 12 or 13yo, I am planning on getting the vaccine for them. I may do the same w/ the HPV vax, or Hep B..I don't know because the data may be different when we get to that point.

DO NOT assume that a parent that chooses not to vaccinate does so w/o solid, credible information that THEY interpret in such a way that vaccinating their child puts them MORE at risk than not doing so.

I should add that I have worked in biological research for the past 12 years. I know that there is good work going on in laboratories all around the world. Heck, I even worked for a good hunk of my 12 years at an institution that DEVELOPS vaccines. That doesn't mean I don't question, and it doesn't mean that their work isn't important.

 

[jodifla]

But that's the point not ALL doctors are pro-vax. There are doctors that question vaccines. Our own pediatrician doesn't vax her kids, either does our chiropractor, our pulmonologist did selective vax on her kids due to allergies.

I'm really really tired of the you're with us or against us mentality. And that is a blanket statement.

There's something I don't see you addressing: In story after story after story we quoted, death rates rise after enough people stop vaccinating, allowing diseases to get a decent foothold in a community.

That's why you're getting the "us against them" mentality. Because YOUR decisions affect the rest of us.

And that's not "drama" it's simply fact.

 

[tedhowe]

DO NOT assume that a parent that chooses not to vaccinate does so w/o solid, credible information that THEY interpret in such a way that vaccinating their child puts them MORE at risk than not doing so.

Fair enough. I won't contradict what you've said. From what I've read of your posts, you are someone that I would "agree to disagree" with and based on the research you've said you've done I would respect your decision.

But, I believe that a significant part of the reason why vaccinating a child might put them at MORE risk today that not vaccinating them is because of the fact that such a large percentage of the population IS vaccinating their children. If nobody vaccinated their kids any more, we would very quickly swing back to the other side of the statistical pendulum and it would be far more risky to NOT vaccinate.

Others have said that they feel no requirement to vaccinate their kids for the common good (I don't recall if I've seen that in your posts, but I don't think so). I do feel that requirement exists as part of the social contract.

We're not saying that you have to send your child out to wander on I-95 at rush hour for the social good. We're suggesting that doing something which has a high likelihood of no adverse reaction and a similar high likelihood of benefitting not only the child but society as a whole... that to me is not too much to ask in the social contract...of course that is changed if there is a history of problems in the family.

Ted

 

[3jsmommy]

Okay, the hyperbole is getting pretty thick in here.

I know that those people exist because I have a close relative who is one of those "people in white coats" trying to save the world.

She works for a large, multinational pharmaceutical company in research for vaccines. She doesn't have horns or a red cape. She is not the devil.

There are very real people who are spending their careers trying to help all of us.

Big pharma is not any more or less evil than GM or Walmart or Microsoft or Exxon. There are good and bad aspects to every one of those companies. All of them (and the big pharmas) are motivated by profit, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people working there who aren't trying to make a better world.

As for vaccines, both of our daughters have had all of their vaccines, but not always on the schedule the Doctors recommended. When we spoke to our pediatrician, she said that one reason the vaccines had gotten so loaded into a few "rounds" of shots was because if they were split out, far fewer people would come back and get all the vaccines. She was okay with the idea of spreading them out if the parents wanted - we has several extra visits to the pediatrician's office to get the vaccines done, but we felt more comfortable with it.

I am 100% pro vaccine. I think that its one of the things we can do which will most likely help improve our children's chances of leading happy, healthy lives.

Those people who have a personal or familiar history of adverse reactions should be comfortable in their choice not to vaccinate - and shouldn't be ridiculed for it.

Those people who fear adverse reactions or autism and therefore don't vaccinate are not, I think, being honest in their reasoning. Statistically there's no doubt in my mind that kids are better off vaccinated than not.

This relative your talking about probably has nothing to do w/ the decisions made by the CEO & PR people in her company right?
I said in my post that I trust my doctor, there are many good dr.'s, many in my family including myself have worked in the medical field.
That said.......I KNOW that drug companies have huge marketing groups & do damage control to keep unfavorable studies from the public & since there is an epidemic of Autism in the U.S. right now & vaccines are being "said" to have nothing to do w/ it I choose to question those studies that many people here choose to believe.
I was responding to a poster who was being ignorant, rude, & dramatic.
I do not see how my "hyperbole" could offend anyone, I was referring to the public's perception of an industry at large & the manipulation they use to promote that perception.
Read my entire post before you choose to pick it apart.
I have told a true story about a true example of this, I notice there is no reaction to that or concern there, just act like I am attacking good people like my BIL who help save lives everyday...convenient for your argument.
BTW to compare Big Pharma w/ Walmart & Microsoft just goes to show how little you understand these issues.
How many cases can you find about people dying or suffering because of the greed & coverups of those companies.

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

Then there are those that combine the two "parts." There are those of us that take our family medical history into account... and then do all the research. We read vaccination books, journal articles, research and yes, find some information on the internet... on both sides of the vaccination fence. We research the diseases, possible complications and the worldwide incidence rates. We read the manufacturer's inserts that come with the vaccines, learn the efficacy rates, consider all the possible side effects. We confer w/ a variety of medical professionals and have ongoing conversations w/ them regarding the latest info on diseases and vaccines.

We are NOT crazy people that "heard" from somewhere that our friend's, friend's cousin had a kid w/ autism. We are parents that spend hundreds of hours culling through information so we can make educated decisions regarding our families.

And after all that research, some of us come to a different conclusion that vaccinating our children ISN'T the responsible thing to do...for OUR children.

I know for me that my research didn't ever end. I did hundreds of hours of research before dd was born over 6yrs ago. At that time our decision was to selectively vax her on a schedule that spaced them out over time. Through experience and MUCH more research we decided after dd's 4yr check up to totally stop vaccinating, and ds (21mo) isn't vaxed at all.

Is this my final decision...not by a long shot. I will continue to research and make decisions as new data is discovered and new information is available. I know as of right now if my children don't build up a natural immunity to chicken pox before they are 12 or 13yo, I am planning on getting the vaccine for them. I may do the same w/ the HPV vax, or Hep B..I don't know because the data may be different when we get to that point.

DO NOT assume that a parent that chooses not to vaccinate does so w/o solid, credible information that THEY interpret in such a way that vaccinating their child puts them MORE at risk than not doing so.

I should add that I have worked in biological research for the past 12 years. I know that there is good work going on in laboratories all around the world. Heck, I even worked for a good hunk of my 12 years at an institution that DEVELOPS vaccines. That doesn't mean I don't question, and it doesn't mean that their work isn't important.

well said! much of this parallels my beliefs and experience.......

 

[Nikel]

Others have said that they feel no requirement to vaccinate their kids for the common good (I don't recall if I've seen that in your posts, but I don't think so). I do feel that requirement exists as part of the social contract.

We're not saying that you have to send your child out to wander on I-95 at rush hour for the social good. We're suggesting that doing something which has a high likelihood of no adverse reaction and a similar high likelihood of benefiting not only the child but society as a whole... that to me is not too much to ask in the social contract...of course that is changed if there is a history of problems in the family.

I was one of the posters that said that, just to clear things up. In general I do think about the good of society in most of my choices, but not this one. We would however, isolate ourselves as much as possible if one of caught something or had known exposure to something contagious, not just limited to vax preventable diseases.

 

[sha_lyn]

But that's the point not ALL doctors are pro-vax. There are doctors that question vaccines. Our own pediatrician doesn't vax her kids, either does our chiropractor, our pulmonologist did selective vax on her kids due to allergies.

I'm really really tired of the you're with us or against us mentality. And that is a blanket statement.

Exactly. It was a Dr that told my friend that vaccinations caused her DD's seizure. He advised her to not vax her 2 younger children because the risk was not worth it. However IRL she gets the attitude that is so prevalent here in the DIS.... "you are risking my child if you don't vax your other 2".
On the flip side of that I wonder if those who vax realize they are putting everyone with a compromised immune system at risk when they take their recently vax'ed kids out in public.
I guess everyone with a medical condition or who isn't vax should stay away from the public so those who are vax'ed can run around wherever they want.

As said before, I'm not even non-vax'ing,and yes I do take precautions after vax'ing DD. IE... We were invited to a July 4th cookout. I informed the hostess that DD was vax'ed 10days prior. She then informed one of the guest (who is HIV positive) that DD was vax'ed and told him what shots DD received. The other guest called his Dr to get the OK for him to be near DD.

 

[CEDmom]

There is no sound point but that the most vocal part of the DIS will miss it.
I thank you all for the personal digs, but you misunderstood my last post nearly in its entirety (especially about the lifetime health record).
I must say I am not in the least surprised!

What is there to misunderstand ? You said you'd pit your DS's lifetime health record against anyone's. That would be his lifetime health record that's all of 2 years and 10 months old, right ?

 

[LadyShiva]

Here's the vaccines that have live virii, and therefore should not be used by immunosuppressed individuals:
http://wwwn.cdc.gov/travel/yellowBookCh9-Immunocompromised.aspx

The list:
Bacille Calmette Guérin
Live, inhaled versions of the Flu vaccine (different from the version for children now approved)
MMR
Typhoid Fever
Chicken Pox (aka, varicella)
Yellow fever

Brandie

 

[Geoff_M]

This relative your talking about probably has nothing to do w/ the decisions made by the CEO & PR people in her company right?
I said in my post that I trust my doctor, there are many good dr.'s, many in my family including myself have worked in the medical field.
That said.......I KNOW that drug companies have huge marketing groups & do damage control to keep unfavorable studies from the public & since there is an epidemic of Autism in the U.S. right now & vaccines are being "said" to have nothing to do w/ it I choose to question those studies that many people here choose to believe.

The notion will somehow just not go away that Big Pharma is raking in the big bucks with such products as standard "required" childhood vaccines like Polio, Tetanus, Measles, etc. Drug companies aren't tripping over themselves in a rush to make, sell, or market these vaccines. Many drug companies exited the human vaccine markets all together, and have only gotten interested in them again recently... but only in regards to newer novel vaccines like the HPV vaccine or the race for an HIV vaccine.

As for suppressing studies with regard to Autism and vaccines, most of the major studies done after the controversy arose had nothing to do with vaccine makers, but instead were conducted by outside research institutions, health institutions, and governmental health bodies. The vaccine makers' primary response was to drop Thimerosal from childhood vaccines in an effort to appease public perceptions. However, it seems to have had the opposite effect as many people assume that if they stopped using it, then that must be "proof" that there's something wrong with it. The frenzy of activities in this area reached its peak not long after 2000, and those organizations were satisfied that there was no connection and they've "moved on" to more promising research into the disorder's causes. But, still there's some work being done to look into new ways to find a Thimerosal vaccine-autism link. Here's the results from one of the latest studies who's results were announce this Spring. This one's from the U. of Missouri and once again found no connection... Link The money quote from one of the researchers: "It is time to move on and focus our research dollars and efforts on avenues that will be more productive."

 

[3jsmommy]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/ind...le=UPI-1-20070626-16403000-bc-ageofautism.xml
Try to find research institutions, Universities,(Columbia, Yale) or a Gov. agency that is not directly or indirectly funded by drug companies & I will agree w/ your statement.
The studies by these institutions usually follow a negative independent study by patient advocate groups.(damage control)
More recently there have been more "grass root" studies being done, probably at the frustration of family members because of just this problem.
It seems on this board there has been an attitude of these type of studies or movements not being credible, I know how the system works & I will delay as long as I see fit.
I hope no one else ever has to find out about this system first hand as I have, because why would you unless you were doing it for someone that you lost due to a "side effect".
I see my mom suffering at the thought of not being able to protect her child from a medicine that killed her'
All drugs are not one size fits all, I won't take that chance w/ my child, as I said before my neighbor has 2 autistic children, # 3 & 4 where not vaxed unitl they were older. She told me,"I wasn't afraid of the chicken Pox." Do you blame her?
Until you walk in someone elses shoes you cannot say what there decision about this should be.
I have my reasons not to trust your "studies" so does my wonderful sister (in heaven)& my neighbors beautiful kids.
I'm done w/ this debate.