United Airlines Forces Man off of oversold flight

[bcla]

(again I said I understood that THIS unfortunate case had nothing to do with overbooking and I'm not suggesting this rule should change because of the United incident...)

I'm asking why does it matter if there is a person in the seat if the fare has been paid in full already? Is it simply a tool (double dipping) to keep fares low? It just seems shady.

Man I'm glad we drive to Disney LOL.

It hasn't ever happened to me, but when you buy your ticket are you told right then that the flight is full and you are flying on standby?

Check the available seats for an idea. It's not the full picture though. Some opt to not pick a seat. I've had cases (BOGO free through credit card) where I couldn't until checkin.

The big deal is that unrestricted fare may bump someone on a non refundable fare, even if booked hours ahead of the flight.

 

[mummabear]

Check the available seats for an idea. It's not the full picture though. Some opt to not pick a seat. I've had cases (BOGO free through credit card) where I couldn't until checkin.

The big deal is that unrestricted fare may bump someone on a non refundable fare, even if booked hours ahead of the flight.

And this is the issue, no one should be able to pay to bump someone else off, the transferable ticket should only be able to be transferred where there are empty seats.

 

[MillauFr]

Last week Delta had a lot of issues stemming from the weather. I was stuck in Cincinnati for the night. My flight was delayed delayed delayed due to weather then it ended up being cancelled it was cancelled because at that point there was no flight crew available. You know what delta did? This:

"As a Medallion® Member, you expect and deserve more.

Hello, Julie SkyMiles® #xxxxxx>

20,000 MILES TO SAY WE'RE SORRY.

Last week, severe weather and tornadic activity at our Atlanta hub caused a major disruption in our flight operations and your travel plans. Our response in the days following was out of character, and I am sorry for what you experienced. It was an accumulation of events that began with unprecedented severe weather in Atlanta on April 5th, when seven storm cells, including tornadic activity, passed over the airport and shut down our operation for much of the day. Our recovery was hampered by a lack of available seats resulting from heightened spring break travel volume, as well as an inability of our crew-tracking systems and processes to adequately position our people to do their jobs.

I have heard from many of you who feel like we let you down. In acknowledgment of what you endured, 20,000 bonus miles will be added to your SkyMiles account in the next 48 hours.

Thank you for your patience and your loyalty. We will continue to review all aspects of this disruption and develop a plan to avoid a similar situation in the future, ensuring we deliver on the reliability and service you expect and deserve from Delta."

I am a delta flyer for life now.

United will never get my money.

United would just say tough. Deal with it.

 

[DebbieB]

He said they'd have to drag him off in direct response to an officer threatening they were going to drag him off.

They said it first!

http://people.com/human-interest/fo...nger-police-arguing-before-dragged-off-plane/

He was already talking lawsuit even before they touched him. I agree they went overboard dragging him off but I think he was trying to be as uncooperative as possible to help his case.

 

[cats mom]

While I know that this situation wasn't an overbooking issue...

Does anyone know why overbooking is still legally allowed? Why isn't that considered "double-dipping". If someone paid for an airline seat and then no-shows, it does not matter if that seat flies vacant as the fee for that seat has been paid for already. the airline collected all the money it should be entitled to for that seat.

Am I missing something? Heck, if everyone no-showed for a flight and it flew empty from point A to point B, wouldn't it cost the airline less in fuel since there would be less weight? They already got paid for every seat. No?

(again I said I understood that THIS unfortunate case had nothing to do with overbooking and I'm not suggesting this rule should change because of the United incident...)

I'm asking why does it matter if there is a person in the seat if the fare has been paid in full already? Is it simply a tool (double dipping) to keep fares low? It just seems shady.

Man I'm glad we drive to Disney LOL.

It hasn't ever happened to me, but when you buy your ticket are you told right then that the flight is full and you are flying on standby?

Not all no shows result in the airline getting paid for the seat. There are fully refundable tickets. Many companies book unrestricted airfare for greater flexibility, in fact some agree to only purchase unrestricted tickets in exchange for a company discount. Some airlines allow changes without penalty for frequent flyers of higher status levels. Accommodations are made for passengers who miss connections when it's the airlines fault all the time.

I'm not defending the practice, just pointing out that a no show or last minute change or cancellation doesn't always mean the airline is getting paid for that empty seat.

 

[Babs Johnson]

I heard on tonight's news that Delta has upped the amount to $10,000. For that amount I may book a flight just to see if I get bumped. Just kidding but I bet they get takers before it gets that high.

From this story:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-delta-volunteer-offer-20170414-story.html

Delta Air Lines is moving to make it easier to find customers willing to give up their seats. In an internal memo obtained Friday by The Associated Press, Delta said gate agents can offer up to $2,000, up from a previous maximum of $800, and supervisors can offer up to $9,950, up from $1,350.

Looks like Delta used to have the same limits as United did before this incident.

While I know that this situation wasn't an overbooking issue...

Does anyone know why overbooking is still legally allowed? Why isn't that considered "double-dipping". If someone paid for an airline seat and then no-shows, it does not matter if that seat flies vacant as the fee for that seat has been paid for already. the airline collected all the money it should be entitled to for that seat.

Am I missing something? Heck, if everyone no-showed for a flight and it flew empty from point A to point B, wouldn't it cost the airline less in fuel since there would be less weight? They already got paid for every seat. No?

There are many business passengers flying on expensive fully refundable fares. The airlines give them flexibility, including the right to cancel at the last minute and receive a refund, in exchange for the high price. Those fares are the bread and butter of airline profits.

Airlines overbook to make up for the loss of revenue if a high fare passenger cancels.

 

[mummabear]

He was already talking lawsuit even before they touched him. I agree they went overboard dragging him off but I think he was trying to be as uncooperative as possible to help his case.

Of course he was thinking about suing! They were kicking him off of the plane.

Not all no shows result in the airline getting paid for the seat. There are fully refundable tickets. Many companies book unrestricted airfare for greater flexibility, in fact some agree to only purchase unrestricted tickets in exchange for a company discount. Some airlines allow changes without penalty for frequent flyers of higher status levels. Accommodations are made for passengers who miss connections when it's the airlines fault all the time.

I'm not defending the practice, just pointing out that a no show or last minute change or cancellation doesn't always mean the airline is getting paid for that empty seat.

And changes to those airfares are something they need to think about.
Maybe they need to move the cancellation window, certainly no one should be able to just not show up and get a refund.
Maybe the answer is to leave one spare seat.

 

[Babs Johnson]

Last week Delta had a lot of issues stemming from the weather. I was stuck in Cincinnati for the night. My flight was delayed delayed delayed due to weather then it ended up being cancelled it was cancelled because at that point there was no flight crew available. You know what delta did? This:

"As a Medallion® Member, you expect and deserve more.

Hello, Julie SkyMiles® #xxxxxx>

20,000 MILES TO SAY WE'RE SORRY.

Last week, severe weather and tornadic activity at our Atlanta hub caused a major disruption in our flight operations and your travel plans. Our response in the days following was out of character, and I am sorry for what you experienced. It was an accumulation of events that began with unprecedented severe weather in Atlanta on April 5th, when seven storm cells, including tornadic activity, passed over the airport and shut down our operation for much of the day. Our recovery was hampered by a lack of available seats resulting from heightened spring break travel volume, as well as an inability of our crew-tracking systems and processes to adequately position our people to do their jobs.

I have heard from many of you who feel like we let you down. In acknowledgment of what you endured, 20,000 bonus miles will be added to your SkyMiles account in the next 48 hours.

Thank you for your patience and your loyalty. We will continue to review all aspects of this disruption and develop a plan to avoid a similar situation in the future, ensuring we deliver on the reliability and service you expect and deserve from Delta."

I am a delta flyer for life now.

United will never get my money.

Delta realized that they screwed up big time with their poor recovery efforts. Good for them for trying to soothe affected passengers.

 

[mnrose]

(again I said I understood that THIS unfortunate case had nothing to do with overbooking and I'm not suggesting this rule should change because of the United incident...)

I'm asking why does it matter if there is a person in the seat if the fare has been paid in full already? Is it simply a tool (double dipping) to keep fares low? It just seems shady.

Man I'm glad we drive to Disney LOL.

It hasn't ever happened to me, but when you buy your ticket are you told right then that the flight is full and you are flying on standby?

No. You are told that a seat will be assigned at check in. And, most of the time, you'll get one.

 

[bcla]

And this is the issue, no one should be able to pay to bump someone else off, the transferable ticket should only be able to be transferred where there are empty seats.

You may think that's a big enough issue, but most flights don't result in anyone getting bumped even with same day ticket purchases. The basic model assumes that there will be enough last minute cancellations, no-shows, or changes such that bumping happens occasionally. It works pretty well, but only a predictive model can be used; it's not a crystal ball.

Airlines are businesses. They're looking to make money in an industry where they're paying $30-100 million for an aircraft that seats 70-180 people. It only makes sense if they maximize capacity. The alternative is to charge more. If the alternative is to pay 25% more with a guarantee of no bumping vs a 1:1000 possibility of getting involuntarily bumped, what do you think usually wins out?

 

[bcla]

And changes to those airfares are something they need to think about.
Maybe they need to move the cancellation window, certainly no one should be able to just not show up and get a refund.
Maybe the answer is to leave one spare seat.

A huge premium is paid in order to get a refund st any time. Do you really think the airlines will give up people paying 5-8 times as much as the lowest fare? This is where most actually make their money.

 

[PollyannaMom]

I flew yesterday (different airline) and wondered if things were going to be tense because of the recent incident.

They weren't overbooked, but they were looking to seat two passengers together after we were on the plane, and asked if there were two adults next to each other could split up. They offered window seats in exchange, and when they didn't get takers for that, offered a free drink to each, and a couple volunteered. People clapped. I was glad to hear the staff keep things cheerful and even inject some light humor (though they did not "go there"!)

 

[Jennasis]

No. You are told that a seat will be assigned at check in. And, most of the time, you'll get one.

I fly about once or twice a year (usually on American). Every time I have gone online to purchase a ticket I am taken to a screen with a seating diagram and asked to choose my seat from the available seats (with some of the seats only available via an upcharge for extra legroom or what have you). I know Southwest doesn't assign seats.

 

[sunshinehighway]

They over book because statistically, a certain percentage of passengers are no shows. By "double booking" and keeping the flights as full as possible, they can keep fares relatively lower. We could regulate airlines again, I suppose, but back when airlines were regulated, prices were MUCH higher (higher than they are in real dollars even, not inflated dollars). In the VAST majority of cases, they guess correctly on the overbooking (because they have sophisticated software programs which allow them to predict this quite accurately, and when they are wrong, in the VAST majority of cases, they get willing volunteers to be bumped in order to get compensation. If you go on frequent flyer websites, you will find threads where people talk about the best strategy for getting bumped, and what the current going rate for compensation is on the different airlines.

This is an aberration in the "bumping" world. Happens all the time, and generally without fuss.

There is no reason for airlines to change their overall procedure because a single case goes badly. There are, literally, hundreds of thousands of voluntary bumps every year. Delta leads the pack at 130,000. In addition to the voluntary bumps, there were 40,000 involuntary bumps last year. How many of these ended badly? Do we really need to regulate the crap out of airlines on this point when it obviously goes pretty well the vast majority of the time. This case is going to be worked out (apparently) in a lawsuit, and that's as it should be.

I guess the question of whether we need to regulate the crap out of airlines comes down to if there's a problem with how things currently are. If there is a problem, are airlines willing to address it on their own.
I like my cheap flights. Of course I want it to stay like that but I also want confidence that airlines respect customers.
The biggest problem with this whole situation is United's response. If that's the attitude airlines are going to have, then yeah there needs to be more protections for customers even if that means high prices.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

In the US the FAA gives the captain full authority once the door is closed, but at the gate the airline still has full authority over the plane. I've heard of captains and gate agents in disagreement, but in this case there was none.

In case anyone missed it, it said in one of those articles I posted yesterday that it was a gate agent that called the aviation police into this situation.

He was already talking lawsuit even before they touched him. I agree they went overboard dragging him off but I think he was trying to be as uncooperative as possible to help his case.

We all say things when we're being threatened. It's human nature.

 

[bcla]

I fly about once or twice a year (usually on American). Every time I have gone online to purchase a ticket I am taken to a screen with a seating diagram and asked to choose my seat from the available seats (with some of the seats only available via an upcharge for extra legroom or what have you). I know Southwest doesn't assign seats.

That's typically an option, but not always available depending on how the ticket was purchased. Sometimes the only available seats are "premium", where passengers wait until checking to avoid paying extra. I've had a few cases where I couldn't select. The final one now is "basic" fares where a carryon isn't allowed, just a personal item. Also, no seat assignment until checkin or maybe even at the gate, and no way to select. Even on the same reservation they may spread out families. This comes with no chance of refund or change at all. Also the last to board and probably the first to be bumped involuntarily. And perhaps no option to be a volunteer to be bumped. Of course people will buy these if it saves them money.

 

[bcla]

In case anyone missed it, it said in one of those articles I posted yesterday that it was a gate agent that called the aviation police into this situation.

Well, one of the columns I was reading was about an argument between the gate agents and captain over whether or not to board more passengers since there was room on the plane. One suggestion was that the gate agents wanted the plane to move out quickly because they're evaluated based on on-time performance. However, until the door is shut it's a balancing act between who working for the airline has authority. However, the airline still has Supreme authority even if it's not vested in one person.

 

[mom2rtk]

Last week Delta had a lot of issues stemming from the weather. I was stuck in Cincinnati for the night. My flight was delayed delayed delayed due to weather then it ended up being cancelled it was cancelled because at that point there was no flight crew available. You know what delta did? This:

"As a Medallion® Member, you expect and deserve more.

Hello, Julie SkyMiles® #xxxxxx>

20,000 MILES TO SAY WE'RE SORRY.

Last week, severe weather and tornadic activity at our Atlanta hub caused a major disruption in our flight operations and your travel plans. Our response in the days following was out of character, and I am sorry for what you experienced. It was an accumulation of events that began with unprecedented severe weather in Atlanta on April 5th, when seven storm cells, including tornadic activity, passed over the airport and shut down our operation for much of the day. Our recovery was hampered by a lack of available seats resulting from heightened spring break travel volume, as well as an inability of our crew-tracking systems and processes to adequately position our people to do their jobs.

I have heard from many of you who feel like we let you down. In acknowledgment of what you endured, 20,000 bonus miles will be added to your SkyMiles account in the next 48 hours.

Thank you for your patience and your loyalty. We will continue to review all aspects of this disruption and develop a plan to avoid a similar situation in the future, ensuring we deliver on the reliability and service you expect and deserve from Delta."

I am a delta flyer for life now.

United will never get my money.

Bummer that my son wasn't a Skymiles member. He got his room and food comped but that's it. But he did get a nice job offer he was there to interview for, so I'll take that.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

He was already talking lawsuit even before they touched him. I agree they went overboard dragging him off but I think he was trying to be as uncooperative as possible to help his case.

Agreed!! And there are people like that -- we all know it -- United should have known it. Again, all the more reason to have an "auction" -- up your $$ offer until you have VOLUNTEERS. Easy.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Bummer that my son wasn't a Skymiles member. He got his room and food comped but that's it. But he did get a nice job offer he was there to interview for, so I'll take that.

Very cool! Congrats to him!!