TSA mess and the police

[mhsjax]

Yes I remember those images vividly - like the lady who made the sign of the cross right before she jumped to her death rather than burn. I get it - but my point - almost nothing is 100% guaranteed and if you are afraid of being blown up in an airplane than don't fly - that is almost 100% guaranteed - if you don't fly you won't get blown up in an airplane.

You aren't going to appease everyone no matter WHAT the (government) does. If they pull back on the things they think may work and something goes wrong they get blamed, if some folks feel they are overreaching they get all kinds of grief. It's really a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.

Funny thing is, most of the world is pretty darn strict about airline travel especially compared to the states but I have yet to see or hear about the outrage in those countries - sometimes we forget that even post-9/11 we really do still have some of the most liberal "freedoms" compared to alot of other countries. Does that mean we have to be like them no, but sometimes its good to copy the lesson plans that work (think Israel, etc.).

Do I think the patdowns, body imaging, etc. is necessarily the best way to go - I can't say. I am not an expert in any of those areas, etc. and I'm guessing most of us aren't. It is easy for us to second guess every decision the TSA makes as good or bad - but as anyone knows any time there is human involvement we will never reach 100% perfection.

Yep, Israel, it is my understanding that they also have men carrying gun on their planes, I may be wrong. I also understand that El Al, or whatever their airline is, is about the safest around.

 

[C.Ann]

CAnn - I found this:



It's someone's account of what happened, so whether or not it's truth - we don't know. But this woman says she did, indeed, have to remove clothing.

That's what I was afraid of - and why I asked what the "next" step was..

Someone here already mentioned materials for bombs in or on feminine hygeine products.. So let's go with that for a minute..

Your 82 yr. old grandma is flying to wherever to visit here grandkids.. She is randomly selected for a pat down.. (And it has been shown over and over and over that people are being pulled randomly in some cases - not just those refusing the scanner..)

Grandma recently had a female procedure done - which requires the use of the thickest available feminine hygiene pad there is (to prevent leakage) - for a week.. She's perfectly healthy enough to travel - just has to deal with this minor issue of wearing a pad..

She is randomly pulled out of line for a pat down.. TSA agent looks her up and down and proceeds to "feel" wherever they have been trained to "feel"..

Wait! What the heck does this old lady - who is obviously way beyond the age of having a monthly cycle - have between her legs?????????

What happens to grandma now?? Off to the "private" room where she has to take off her underwear and show them her pad??

Issues like this are bound to arise.. If other people are comfortable with that for themselves and their children - comfortable with playing Russian roulette while standing in line, wondering if you or one of your kids is going to be randomly chosen for a pat down - and then dealing with what comes next if something doesn't "feel" right - have at it..

For those who don't have a problem with this, are you comfortable with the concept of what happens "next" - just because something doesn't "feel" right to the TSA person performing the pat down on you or your kids?

I'm not.. And just off the top of my head - without even having to ask - I know of at least 5 other people who will not play this game for what basically amounts to a useless, unnecessary invasion of personal privacy - that is not going to do squat (no pun intended) to improve the safety of the passengers on any given airplane..

 

[pilotwife_02]

OMgosh - LOL! - These clothes appear plain....until you get in the scanner.

http://www.bodyscannerattitude.com/

 

[bumbershoot]

I'm going to go way out on a radical limb here, so I'll go ahead and don the flameproof suit. I think we should return to PRE-9/11 airport security standards. Here is exactly why:

1) Pretty much every government official and 9/11 commission on earth has come to the same conclusion: 9/11 fundamentally occurred because of a lack of communication. The information was there, but lots of different agencies around the world each had a PIECE of it. Had they all communicated effectively, they could have stopped the attack.

2) The 9/11 hijackers had BOX CUTTERS. They didn't have some sophisticated indefensible weapon. What they preyed on was the general public's understanding of terrorism at that time, which went roughly like this: 99% of the time, the terrorists don't want to die either. They want money or the release of prisoners or something. So they'll hijack a plane, divert it to another country and everybody on board will sit there for a few days while everyone negotiates. Sit down, shut up, do what you're told and you'll get home alive. Hence why no one fought back until the plane they took down in Pennsylvania. Knowing what we know now, it's patently obvious that we as passengers have to fight. Do you really think a couple of bad guys could take down a plane with box cutters today?

3) In the highly unlikely event that they do invent that superweapon that can't be easily overcome by a coordinated hand to hand effort between passengers, shouldn't somebody on the dang plane have SOME way to fight back? I don't think flying with guns or knives is smart, but golly gee, self-defense classes teach us to use our car keys or purses to subdue a bad guy. Knitting needles or a multi-tool aren't very effective for taking down a plane anymore (see point 2), but could theoretically be used as part of a counter-attack. There's way more regular passengers on a plane than bad guys. But the bad guys are going to find a way to sneak on whatever they like, while the good guys sit there entirely defenseless and terrified of our own shadows.

4) I think somebody already touched on this earlier, but what's to stop a terrorist from entering the unsecure part of the airport with an AK-47 and mowing down the line of helpless people stuck at the TSA checkpoint? They don't care about airplanes, they care about wreaking havoc.

I completely, totally, 100% agree.

Today I was checking Alaskaair b/c I want to see if our flight has gone down in price (most people don't know, but they do issue credits without a fee when that happens), and I saw a new Alert on top. Now, no doubt due to recent events, ink cartridges and toner over 16 ounces can't be carried on OR put into checked bags.

AUGHHHHHHH.

Obviously someone has been there, TRIED to do that, normal security measures caught it. But now they have to focus on "oh that bag has toner in it, gotta get it out", while, possibly, something that's a threat goes by *because no one has used it before*.


The communication thing is so BIG. My mom worked in a very relevant department of a big intelligence agency (she died 18 months to the day before 9/11) and she would brief the bigwigs on things, but KNEW that it wasn't getting out to other agencies. They kept their info so close to the vest. TV shows aren't reality but they often portray reality well, and the shows involving various agencies, when they show them not wanting to share info because THEY want to catch the baddies, that is/was sooo true. And that's what helped cause the problems. "ooh there's a bad guy talking to another bad guy, but we aren't going to tell anyone b/c we don't want them to get the credit". Hopefully that's slowed down now.


And yes, the reaction of passengers would be, has been, entirely different now vs then. It's all different. We're different (I think we're more worldly now, not insulated babies anymore, we realize it happens to *everyone*) now, we act differently now.


So, wow, I agree totally with your post.

 

[mhsjax]

I am just curious, but do celebs go through this? I can''t imagine some famous person allowing someone to pat them down and potentially touch private areas?

 

[CathrynRose]

I remember watching a show (like Dateline or 20/20-ish) a long, long time ago, about airline security, and they interviewed the head of the "TSA" in Isreal - whatever it's called there.

He laughed at us. And this could have been before no liquids, or no shoes, but for sure it was before the Naked Scanners or the "buy me a drink" pat-down.

They don't do any of that, there. They had highly trained individuals, profiling and WATCHING people. Watching like no one watches. They had dogs. Dogs that could sniff a bomb over in the McDonalds down the road, from where they stood.

This is America. Don't we have a better technique than to pull a grandmother or a child out of a security line, and frisk them?

I don't blame him for laughing.

 

[ccgirl]

I remember watching a show (like Dateline or 20/20-ish) a long, long time ago, about airline security, and they interviewed the head of the "TSA" in Isreal - whatever it's called there.

He laughed at us. And this could have been before no liquids, or no shoes, but for sure it was before the Naked Scanners or the "buy me a drink" pat-down.

They don't do any of that, there. They had highly trained individuals, profiling and WATCHING people. Watching like no one watches. They had dogs. Dogs that could sniff a bomb over in the McDonalds down the road, from where they stood.

This is America. Don't we have a better technique than to pull a grandmother or a child out of a security line, and frisk them?

I don't blame him for laughing.

But profiling is also against our civil liberties. Why aren't you asking for the ACLU there? I bet if you were in the group being profiled you would be. I guess grandmothers and children could never be a threat?

 

[CathrynRose]

But profiling is also against our civil liberties. Why aren't you asking for the ACLU there? I bet if you were in the group being profiled you would be. I guess grandmothers and children could never be a threat?

Not profiling like that. Not "That guy looks Middle Eastern.... get him!"

Profiling as to people's behavior. Their actions. Their eye movements. Are they sweating in 30 degree weather? Nervous? Pacing? Do they look hesitant to get into the Security Line?

It's been said by several witness account who flew with the shoe-bomber, he had a melt down of sorts, before getting on the plane, before security. But, he was still allowed to go. (I'll find that link....)

And, lemme think.... I watched a show in September on History (I think...) remembering 9/11. It was a ticket agent who didn't care for, and was leary of the one guy... the main Terrorist guy....when he checked him in. Said he seemed anxious, sweaty, darting eyes, and such. And even felt guilty about thinking that way, as the man was obviously Middle Eastern and felt he was jumping to assumptions.

If an untrained ticketing agent, could get a vibe from the way this man was acting - imagine trained professionals doing this?

Am I the only one, who looks around your gate "making sure" no one look suspicious?

 

[NotUrsula]

Yep, Israel, it is my understanding that they also have men carrying gun on their planes, I may be wrong. I also understand that El Al, or whatever their airline is, is about the safest around.

Yes, it is, but you have to understand that Israel only has one international airport, and the traffic that El Al carries in one year is about equivalent to what goes through ORD in one day. There is no way that any major airport in the US can adopt Ben Gurion's full procedures, because the lines would be stretching beyond the runways. (Among other things, Israeli security officers personally interview every passenger at some length; the average interview is about 30 minutes, and they do expect children to answer without prompting from their parents.)

Now that all cockpits have been hardened, hijacking is not the principal risk issue, the issue is explosives, and the answer to that threat has 4 paws and a tail. The answer is DOGS, and you will see them in every intl airport that is really hardnosed about security. They also use behavior and travel pattern profiling.

I agree that we should go back to the old style, without the shoe check and the "new" patdowns, but add full cargo screening and also add patrolling armed personnel with dogs airside. If the dogs don't like you, THEN they can search you, and thoroughly, too.

 

[CathrynRose]

Yes, it is, but you have to understand that Israel only has one international airport, and the traffic that El Al carries in one year is about equivalent to what goes through ORD in one day. There is no way that any major airport in the US can adopt Ben Gurion's full procedures, because the lines would be stretching beyond the runways. (Among other things, Israeli security officers personally interview every passenger at some length; the average interview is about 30 minutes, and they do expect children to answer without prompting from their parents.)

Now that all cockpits have been hardened, hijacking is not the principal risk issue, the issue is explosives, and the answer to that threat has 4 paws and a tail. The answer is DOGS, and you will see them in every intl airport that is really hardnosed about security. They also use behavior and travel pattern profiling.

I agree that we should go back to the old style, without the shoe check and the "new" patdowns, but add full cargo screening and also add patrolling armed personnel with dogs airside. If the dogs don't like you, THEN they can search you, and thoroughly, too.

I could be wrong, as I've never flown from or to, Isreal - but I do have a girlfriend who has a few times. The "interview" (for her, at least) was minimal. Where are you going? How long were you here? I think it was enough to begin to weed out potential trouble. I'm sure if you started getting jumpy, and nervous - yours would be more intense. She said it was 'maybe' 3 questions... maybe 2, maybe 4? Same with her husband, and step children. Her son's were an infant, and 4 - at that time - so no questions.

And I agree with what it should revert back to - and with the doggies, and the profiling.

Curious - has Isreal's airport ever had an incident, that went unnoticed, until it was too late?

 

[punkin]

I could be wrong, as I've never flown from or to, Isreal - but I do have a girlfriend who has a few times. The "interview" (for her, at least) was minimal. Where are you going? How long were you here? I think it was enough to begin to weed out potential trouble. I'm sure if you started getting jumpy, and nervous - yours would be more intense. She said it was 'maybe' 3 questions... maybe 2, maybe 4? Same with her husband, and step children. Her son's were an infant, and 4 - at that time - so no questions.

And I agree with what it should revert back to - and with the doggies, and the profiling.

Curious - has Isreal's airport ever had an incident, that went unnoticed, until it was too late?

This is true. The interviews are generally short and easy.

However, a friend of mine recently flew from Indonesia (muslim country) to Israel and she got the long interview. She was not pleased, but she wasn't patted down either. It was a very intense 30 minute interrogation. The interrogators were polite (well polite for Israelis) and thorough. If she could not answer their questions and provide adequate reasons why she was traveling to Israel, she would not have been allowed to enter the country.

Yes, this was profiling, but it was not racial. It was based solely on her travel patterns. In other words it had a logical basis, not some random pull out of line. That's just a waste of time.

 

[CathrynRose]

For CAnn, again ~

TSA says that during the new standard pat-down, a screener of the same sex will examine your head, shirt collar area, and waistband, and may use either the front or back of his or her hands to feel your body, including buttocks, around breasts, and between the legs, feeling up to the top of the thigh. Women in tight skirts that don't allow an agent to feel the thigh area may be asked to remove the skirt in a private screening area and will be given a gown or towel to put on.

From: http://aclum.org/tsa/kyo_airport.php

ETA - if you read that link - it says something about 'no one is exempt from pat downs....even babies. **shaking head**

 

[Let'sGoFlyAKite]

For CAnn, again ~



From: http://aclum.org/tsa/kyo_airport.php

ETA - if you read that link - it says something about 'no one is exempt from pat downs....even babies. **shaking head**

This is just SICK!!! Yeah, an 8 month old infant wants to kill everyone on board!!! I wish someone here could give us an email address or mailing address to write and complain. If there is enough uproar in the general public and enough threats to not ever fly again, maybe something will be done. I am disgusted.

 

[CathrynRose]

Who started this thread?? I'm wasting hours of my life Googling, now!!! **shake fist**

There's been a few accounts of - and these were pre-envasive pat downs - of women being asked to go to the Private Room for additional screening (one didn't have a bra on). They said "No, thanks...." and removed their shirt and/or skirt, right there in the public screening area....even the bra less woman.

Many, many people are NOT happy about this.

 

[phamton]

This is just SICK!!! Yeah, an 8 month old infant wants to kill everyone on board!!!

I seriously doubt that they think that a baby would be trying to kill someone. I imagine they think that some terrorist would not be afraid to sacrifice a baby by hiding bombs or weapons on them.

 

[NotUrsula]

Actually, babies under a year old are a good target for having something hidden on them; it's an old smuggler's trick to hide valuables in a diaper because it is bulky and no one really wants to feel inside of one. They don't talk so they can't be interrogated to get an answer. However, since they are little and go through diaper changes several times daily, they are also completely unlikely to suffer any lasting traumatic reactions to being searched.

As to who to write, the answer is simple: your Senators and Congressional representative. It would also be worthwhile to write to the members of the Senate Homeland Security & Govt Affairs Committee. http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=AboutCommittee.Membership

 

[C.Ann]

For CAnn, again ~



From: http://aclum.org/tsa/kyo_airport.php

ETA - if you read that link - it says something about 'no one is exempt from pat downs....even babies. **shaking head**

Looks like it's not just grandma we have to worry about - and the "next" step that no one seemed to want to address - or has no concerns about - is insane!!


From: http://aclum.org/tsa/kyo_airport.php

The "resolution pat-down"

If an "anomaly" is detected during the pat-down--or when you go through the AIT scanner--you will be subjected to a "resolution pat-down." TSA agents will take you to a private area and do a more intense pat-down, which includes using the front of the agent's hands for a more thorough search, including the groin area.

Option: Ask to take a witness with you.

If you are taken to a private area for a "resolution pat-down" search, you can ask to bring a witness with you, or ask TSA to provide a witness for you. This search should also be conducted by a person of the same gender.


Other Things to Know

Traveling with Children

While you may opt your children out of an airport scan, there is no exemption for children from the pat-down searches. TSA says it must "screen everyone, regardless of age (even babies)."

And for children with disabilities who cannot walk or stand;:

Know that if your child is unable to walk or stand, the Security Officer will conduct a pat-down search of your child while he/she remains in their mobility aid, as well as a visual and physical inspection of their equipment.

Everyone still comfy, cozy with this?

 

[jsmith]

He laughed at us. And this could have been before no liquids, or no shoes, but for sure it was before the Naked Scanners or the "buy me a drink" pat-down.

Sure he did-because in Israel-airport security-who are really soldiers-have the authority to SHOOT people they think are threats-and as for the better security in isreal-city buses in Jerusalem-and shopping malls-get blown up on a regular basis. I have seen EL AL (the Israeli national airline) aircraft on the ground in US airports-surrounded by Isreali soldiers-the Mossad has better intel than we do most of the time. and Yes israeli airliners have been hijacked, they have been a target of terrorists since the nation was founded.
The trouble is Americans dont want the measures that will really make us more secure-armed military personnel in airports (common almost everywhere in Europe) and outside tourists sites( we saw this alot in Turkey this summer). Profiling-look at what happened when Arizona tried to keep the mexicans in mexico. All those things are against the law in this country.TSA agents are doing what they have been mandated to to do-as someone said-its kind of window dressing because of the government did what they really should do the uproar would be much worse.

 

[Ponygirl]

Whenever I hear a story about airport security, I think of George Carlin and the rant he did several years ago. I am not posting a link but it was funny stuff. If you decide to search for it, consider yourself forewarned about his language.

 

[jodifla]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40136368/ns/travel-news/18424824

Pilots, passengers, parents rail at new pat downs
Stepped-up security airport screening provokes outcry to TSA


Some travelers are also livid about how children are being screened. During a trip last Sunday by a father and son through Orlando airport in Florida, the 8-year-old boy was selected for extra screening by TSA after going through the metal detector.
The father said the officer described the procedure before conducting it. Then he patted down the boy in the open security area, using the backside of his hands to check his genital area, he said.
"I didn't think it was going to be as horrible as he was describing," said the boy's father, Bill, who works as a lobbyist in Washington and did not want his full name used.
"We spend my child's whole life telling him that only mom, dad and a doctor can touch you in your private area, and now we have to add TSA agent and that's just wrong," he told Reuters. "At some point the terrorists have won."