TSA mess and the police

[jodifla]

I'm late to the party, but I support LuvOrlando 100%. My background is in psychology, and I write professionally about phobias. Both the scanners and the invasive pat downs are what is known as "triggers." A trigger is, simply, something that causes a portion of the population distress, fear, or discomfort. It could be because that person was previously molested. It could be because that person is touch-sensitive (have any of the moms of kids with autistic spectrum disorders weighed in yet?). It could be for absolutely no discernible reason at all. But it doesn't make someone "hysterical" or "panicky" or a "conspiracy theorist" to have a negative reaction to a trigger.

Now, just about anything could trigger someone, somewhere. Some people are afraid of cats. Some are afraid of toothbrushes. We can't make the world entirely safe and comfortable for everyone. BUT, the visceral reactions being expressed both here and around the world indicate that the number of people who are being triggered by these new security measures is reasonably high. I haven't done a study, so I can't say precisely how high. But clearly high enough to be a problem.

Now add in a little matter known as civil liberties. Someone upthread quoted the 4th Amendment, so I won't rehash it. For those who say "you don't have to fly," that's true for me and apparently true for LuvOrlando. But it's not true for everyone. Flying is required by many employers. Why should someone have to choose between being groped/exposed or losing their job? What if your boss told you that you had to allow him/her to fondle you? Wouldn't you immediately file a sexual harassment suit?

I was particularly interested in eliza61's arguments regarding profiling. I am truly sorry that your family experienced those horrible things. But I'm confused as to why you are then okay with being automatically suspected of terrorism whenever you enter an airport. Just like the police officers who harass your family for being black and owning a Lexus, the TSA agents harass you for being American and choosing to fly. I don't see a lot of distinction there. Unless, perhaps, you would be fine with being harassed for owning a Lexus, as long as all Lexus owners of all ethnicities were being harassed? In which case it appears that the racial component is your only concern, not the fact of the harassment itself

I'm half-Jewish. I lost relatives in the Holocaust. So perhaps my opinions are colored by the very real fact that I, too, see a slippery slope. Hitler also started with policies that were designed to "keep the people safe." I never thought I would live to see the day when the American public would tolerate daily invasion into their lives in the name of "safety." I was appalled by the Patriot Act. The fact that it has now escalated into the choice between naked scanners and invasive pat downs, and people are STILL okay with that, has me completely boggled.

For those who keep saying that this will somehow "prevent" another 9/11, do you really believe that the terrorists (well-developed terror cells, not random idiots) are stupid? In case you hadn't noticed, we're still chasing previous threats. How many "underwear bombers" have there been in the past year? How many "shoe bombers" have there been since we started taking off our shoes? They adapt to whatever we're doing and change their MO.

Finally, okay, let's say that you're right. Security theater is going to prevent all future attacks. At what price, then, are we safe? September 11 wasn't an attack on those who died. It was an attack on our way of life. Their goal was to disrupt our freedom, and they've done a heck of a job at that. I, personally, would rather die in a free society than live in one controlled by fear.

This is a great post. And very true about children with disabilities. I'm afraid we're going to see terrible scenes playing out across the country when overzealous agents try to frisk frightened autistic children, or just plain shy adolescents in the midst of puberty.

The whole line of "flying is a privilege, not a right" is just garbage to me. UNREASONABLE searches are unconstitutional. Being groped by TSA agents WITHOUT CAUSE is UNREASONABLE. I have a right as American citizen to travel across the country without being violated.

From accounts across the Internet, these are not the pat-downs of even last month, which I agree were not a problem, having been through a couple of them over the years.

From reports out there now, these new searches by TSA agents are hands grabbing your breasts, your crotch, and hands down your pants. You OK with hands down your children's pants? I'm sure not.

And my congressmen will be hearing about it from me this week.

 

[ccgirl]

#1 - This was *just* put into effect. The fancy pat down, correct? She may very well have been patted down without any 'groping', as she was patted before the fancy pat was initiated. However, ever if she was patted AFTER the 'enhanced' pat - many are reporting they felt it was extreme - including frequent fliers (i.e. Flight Attendants!)

#2 - It's not just a question of molesters and perverts. Many of us just aren't comfortable with it - or frankly (for me...) it pisses me off!!! I'm an American Citizen, flying within the country, with a ticket I paid for - and could possibly be treated like a common criminal! It's not *okay* with me. It makes me really flipping mad!!

#3 - Again, for the umpteenth time - this is an entry level position. It's not even comparable to a Doctor. Truly. I believe you or I could both be TSA agents, after going through their training. This isn't an elite bunch.

The two sides of this issue may never agree. the girl I just went to Vegas with October 23rd, even posted on her FB about how ridiculous it is, to 'feel violated', or to even bother 'opting out'. This is one of my best friends. We don't agree on it. We still had a good time.

We're not all going to agree - but my opinion is this: It irritates me. I'm an American being treated like a Terrorist until proven innocent, and I don't like it.

And a friendly reminder - The 4th Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

You keep stating that the procedure was "just" put in place. I have said in a few posts that I flew this past Sunday, as in 5 days ago, when the procedure was in place. My DH did get the full body pat down and he likened it to being frisked at a sports stadium.

You might rather be felt up - but all in all the whole thing is just a show.

Terrorism really isn't deterred by harassing 72 year old Grandmas from Tulsa flying out to Newark to see the grandkids. The only thing the whole dog and pony TSA show does is put up an appearance to the general public that our government is doing something.

And claiming that anybody expressing an opinion of distaste towards it is acting hysterically is in itself a hyperbole. People are very capable of disliking a practice without teetering into unreasonable hysteria.

This whole conversation kind of reminds me of the viewpoint that anybody who objects to giving the FBI unrestricted authority to tap into our phone calls and invade our private homes on a whim must have something to hide.

But, then if we just patted down people that looked like they are from the Middle East you would complain it is racial profiling.

I think some people are seriously missing the boat on the whole issue when it comes to how this new protocol relates to kids. I don't think anyone here is of the opinion that the TSA is loaded with child abusers just waiting to get their hands on kids. I agree that is a ridiculous notion, like anywhere else there are good and bad. I DO think that there are a number of problems with the current procedures especially as they would apply to children so that's REALLY the point. Particularly I have an issue with ANY adult putting their hands on a child's private parts not because I am concerned with the motives of the adult. I am concerned with the effect this might have on a kid, the trauma, the fright. I have a hard time believing that there are many child development experts who would say this isn't a cause for concern.

The key with children is preparation. I explain to my children what could possibly occur. I tell them not to be scared in this situation. If you tell your child this shouldn't happen, of course they are going to scared if it happens.

My children were very familiar with their pediatrician and his nurses. They had well baby and well child checkups growing up besides visits when they were sick.
You cannot reasonably compare an ER visit with the TSA.

Why can't you rasonably compare an ER visit with the TSA? I would think the ER visit would actually be more "invasive" as it can involve undresssing.

Anyone else find it incredibly interesting that SO MANY people are supporting invasive handling and exposure to radiation without any interest in the ethics and legality of the issue?

As for the term 'pat down', I think it's ridiculous to try and diminish what's going on by using the euphemism 'pat down'. A 'pat down' is what happened BEFORE, a 'pat down' does not include any sort of invasion of private parts. As for those of you who are made uncomfortable with the terms 'molest' and 'assault' good, you should be uncomfortable, they are ugly words and whats going on is equally ugly.

No way should some under-trained TSA agent have this kind of control over me or my kids simply because I walk into the facility.

Again, I'm all for keeping us safe but this has gone too far. I didn't do anything wrong so why should I be subjected to such treatment? It's just too much for me and it's too much for my kids. I agree all we have to do is not fly but why is that a choice we need to make? If nothing changes I will choose not to fly but I'm also not going to drive because I am used to traveling no more than 3 hours and frankly, I'm just not willing to inconvenience myself or my family more than 3-5 hours so I'll just stay local. To those of you who propose this as a simple solution I'd point out it sounds easy enough but if lots of people make the same choice as I do, and don't underestimate people like me, how long do you think the tourism industry can go on? You think the travel industry is doing poorly now, what do you think will happen if all the Moms start walking out of airports because we don't like what's happening to our kids? Think about it, think about the number of kids who don't get vaccinated, who don't eat processed foods & whose parents study the benefits of organic diets so they pay double at the grocery store. Toys in Happy Meals were just banned because it encourages kids to eat unhealthy diets. Do any of you REALLY think the typical American parent who can afford a leisure flight and vacation for their family is going to be ok with exposing themselves and their kids to radiation and/or invasive physical searches for a vacation? I don't think so. You can argue all you want but at the end of the day Moms decide what will or won't happen to their families and I think the number who are fine and dandy with this are going to be in the minority. You might be loud here but i don't think most parents are gong to fall in line with you, parents spook over a great deal less that this.

I'm on here because I'm mad. I want to go on vacation but I want my kids to be kept out of this more so I'm staying home. I'm not happy about it but I won't fly, not like this.

FYI, not everyone who was mistreated as kids is a-ok with being touched. Yay for those of you who got over it but not everyone has. Most people, in fact, have HUGE issues with any kind of non-consensual touching of any kind and have huge issues with control and feeling safe so don't pull the whole "It's ok with me so it should be ok with the world" card because it's simply not true. Being touched at all, never mind invasively, can be very traumatic for an abuse survivor. I scream if someone surprises me in even the most ordinary circumstances, even in my own house, even if it's my DH or kids doing the surprising. As for touching, well the ONLY people who can do that live in my house. No-one is an authority for where someone else's limits are so saying what is or isn't ok for everyone else because it's ok for you is way over the line. Shame on you for going there, you've got no right to speak for others ESPECIALLY about this, you should know better.

You keep using the term "invasive". Personally, I don't see anything invasive with the pat down. They are not going inside of my pants. As I said before, my DH got the new "pat down" method and it was not invasive at all. However, people don't seem to want to take the word from myself or the other traveller that just travelled and gave her personal experience with being involved in the pat down. Neither were invasive.

Do you know how many people the TSA has prevented from boarding have ever been prosecuted for actually being a threat to the flight they were prevented from boarding? ZERO, yes 0, nada, zip, not one
In other words, the morons who have prevented people from boarding did so for no credible reason- at least not one provable in court.
I hope and pray that some of these passengers sue the self righteous pants off the idiots who are in charge of this joke of a gov't agency.

What will the boneheads do when all of their ridiculous security measures fail? There was the dumb shoe bomber but the terrorists who plan big attacks are smart. Groping and scans won't stop them. If they decide to shoot a missile at a plane, will all the people who went through TSA "security" feel any better? The adage "where there's a will, there's a way" could be the terrorist motto.

Sorry...not sure how you can prove that. I know, and have seen knives being taken from passengers. How do you know what their intent with the knife was?

Did cigarettes cause cancer before they were acknowledged to do so by the medical community or not? I kind of think they did. The report didn't make cigarettes carcinogens. Was the earth round before the scientific community declared it so or not? Again, I kind of think it was. In my opinion, sometimes common sense should take over where the establishment is slow. Common sense tells me that if the whole counties female population gets a lead blanket when getting dental or other x-rays then there must have been research somewhere along the lines to warrant the trouble and expense. Common sense also tells me considering everything I've read on the subject of child development, and my own experiences, that an adult invasively touching a child is a bad idea all the way around. I don't need a report to tell me this, I'm sure there are reports on this but i don't need one in my hand to know the situation has got disaster written all over it.

I acknowledge that your common sense may tell you something different than mine, and that's fine. What isn't fine is telling me I'm wrong because I see things differently. I am just as capable of thinking things through as you are and the fact that we reach different conclusions does not mean one or the other is wrong, it just means we're different. I think I'm right for me and you are right for you.

Bolding mine. I stated before, the exact levels of radiation that your body experiences from the backscatter. Please go back and read that post. The research has been done and it equal to flying 2 minutes on a cross-country flight. It is not the same as dental or other x-rays as the radiation bounces off the body (hence the term backscatter) rather than penetrating the body. Yes, we are all capable of thinking things through. I wanted to see the scientific data and make an informed decision before I just jumped to my opinion. What is so invasive of the TSA pat downs? They are not going under your child's clothing.

I wonder how many of those that are so vehemently against the pat downs get patted down at concerts or sporting events?

 

[jodifla]

Anybody want to subject their child to this?? And think this is just A-OK??


http://www.thousandsstandingaround.org/

fatcat04 in Cruise Critic (Nov. 8, 2010 ): We were flying from Nashville to Orlando to go to Disney for my son's birthday. My son is 9 years old. Nashville has installed the new backscatter scanners, aka "naked" scanners. Now I am not a modest person and for me myself I don't care. To be honest, I had not given it much thought. We were given no option to opt out of the scans that I could see, no signage or instructions. I later found out you can opt out and choose the pat down instead. Well, we all three went through the machine. Husband and I were fine. They scanned the kid and then informed us they had to pat him down. I asked why, they said he moved. So I am thinking run of the mill pat down, wand over his body and light touch. He is 9 years old for the love of Pete but that was not the case. Had anyone but a physician doing a necessary medical exam touched my child in the places the TSA agent put his hands, I would have filed charges. He groped the inside of his legs and touched his genitals. He put his hands around my son's neck in a choking position, felt all the way down his chest area and his buttocks. He placed his hands inside my son's pants waist band and felt around his waist. The agent was loud and intimidating even for me, a 36 year old women. He barked at him to "hold up your pants" and "spread your legs, shoulder width." All I could think was my son looked like he was being frisked and how humiliating this was for him to be stared at by everyone as they passed by us. Now, this whole scenario was out in the open, we were not given the option of privacy. My son was scared and humiliated. I am not a momma hen or a wacko and we fly regularly and have never minded the security measures needed but this was a shocking experience. Shocking enough for us to forgo air travel (which we have always loved) until these new security rules change and come closer to something akin to reason. And yes, we have contacted the authorities and other to complain about this situation. We also contacted the airline to tell them why we were cancelling and to let them know that these kinds of things will impact their business. To each his own and all are free to travel as they like but I am not convinced treating my child like a prison inmate progressed the cause of national security one iota.

 

[Magpie]

Hey JL, thanks for the question.

No I have quite a few issues with the security measures and as I've said before every time I fly I must evaluate what I deem as too invasive. what I object to is painting the AGENTS who for the most part are not power hungry pedophiles waiting to get their hands on people but simply hardworking folks trying to keep a job. Are there some scums in the pond sure. But they are no more all child pedophiles than all black men are drug dealers and the problem is that once you start spreading the lie, the lie becomes the preception. Just as the preception among most americans is that african american men are criminals, not based on truth but based on years of portraying them that way. It is because of my history with racial profiling and discrimination that makes me object to these post. So now you have op and bloggers screaming that the agents are "perverts, feeling them up, sexually assualting children" and the hysteria becomes the preception.

The bottom line there is absolutely no safety measure thats going to guarantee our safety. nada, zip, nothing.

I agree, completely!

And regarding a post above, the fellow who was convicted of molestation was NOT doing "basically what the TSA agents are supposed to be doing under the new protocols".

And where the heck is this "they're putting their hands down your child's pants" thing coming from?

According to the media, travellers have a choice to either go through the backscatter machine (less radiation than 2 minutes of air travel) OR they can choose the "enhanced pat down".

The enhanced pat down consists of this...

The head of the US Airways pilots union, Capt. Mike Cleary, said Wednesday that he had learned in informal conversations with TSA personnel that security officers now "are to run their hand up the inside of your leg until they meet bone resistance. In addition, they use a circular pat-down routine from the small of the stomach, around through a person's crotch, and up into the small of the back."

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/busi...iety_over_airport_pat-downs_and_scanners.html

Let's stick to the facts, eh? I think they're probably upsetting enough to some people without having to embellish them.

 

[LuvOrlando]

YAY, the ACLU has picked up on the issue! I kind of doubt a think tank like the ACLU would turn it's attention to this if there weren't legitimate ethical and legal issues on the table. I couldn't be happier!

Looks like I am not alone in my concerns, it also looks like the situation has caught the eye of minds far greater than my own. Maybe I will end up in Aruba and I will get to see Happy Potter in Universal after all. Did I mention YAY?

On the ACLU website look for "TSA Pat-down search abuse."

 

[jodifla]

I agree, completely!

And regarding a post above, the fellow who was convicted of molestation was NOT doing "basically what the TSA agents are supposed to be doing under the new protocols".

And where the heck is this "they're putting their hands down your child's pants" thing coming from?

According to the media, travellers have a choice to either go through the backscatter machine (less radiation than 2 minutes of air travel) OR they can choose the "enhanced pat down".

The enhanced pat down consists of this...



http://www.philly.com/inquirer/busi...iety_over_airport_pat-downs_and_scanners.html

Let's stick to the facts, eh? I think they're probably upsetting enough to some people without having to embellish them.

Take a look at that site and see that many, many, many people say that is NOT what is happening. The child "moved" in the scanner....you have to stay perfectly still, which will be tough for many children. Then the are subjected to the pat-down, which again, many, many people are describing as grabbing crotch and breasts with their hands, looking down their pants, etc.

As we all know, TSA works differently at every airport, and individual agents work differently as well. It's completely believable that this is happening...now even have pilots and flight attendants saying this is happening.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Nope sorry, not buying that one. Most of those people aren't even trained to detect something, they have gotten things through them in the past during testing. Why would I allow some woman or man to touch my DD or DS, God help anyone that touches my child like that. I will choose not to fly. This is a dog and pony show, always has been always will be. Just like anything, give people too much power and they will abuse it. It is disgusting.

Not buying it. Just as (even here) the negative experience is pretty much always reported/broadcast while the typical or expected or normal, everyday experience isn't... ALL of "those people" are trained to detect something. MOST of them do. The news only reports when a prohibited object (or test object) slips by.

"TSA Agents prevented fourteen of fourteen simulated prohibited items from getting through security today in a test by consumer groups..." just doesn't sell papers or increase ratings or hits.

 

[Magpie]

Anybody want to subject their child to this?? And think this is just A-OK??


http://www.thousandsstandingaround.org/

fatcat04 in Cruise Critic (Nov. 8, 2010 ): We were flying from Nashville to Orlando to go to Disney for my son's birthday. My son is 9 years old. Nashville has installed the new backscatter scanners, aka "naked" scanners. Now I am not a modest person and for me myself I don't care. To be honest, I had not given it much thought. We were given no option to opt out of the scans that I could see, no signage or instructions. I later found out you can opt out and choose the pat down instead. Well, we all three went through the machine. Husband and I were fine. They scanned the kid and then informed us they had to pat him down. I asked why, they said he moved. So I am thinking run of the mill pat down, wand over his body and light touch. He is 9 years old for the love of Pete but that was not the case. Had anyone but a physician doing a necessary medical exam touched my child in the places the TSA agent put his hands, I would have filed charges. He groped the inside of his legs and touched his genitals. He put his hands around my son's neck in a choking position, felt all the way down his chest area and his buttocks. He placed his hands inside my son's pants waist band and felt around his waist. The agent was loud and intimidating even for me, a 36 year old women. He barked at him to "hold up your pants" and "spread your legs, shoulder width." All I could think was my son looked like he was being frisked and how humiliating this was for him to be stared at by everyone as they passed by us. Now, this whole scenario was out in the open, we were not given the option of privacy. My son was scared and humiliated. I am not a momma hen or a wacko and we fly regularly and have never minded the security measures needed but this was a shocking experience. Shocking enough for us to forgo air travel (which we have always loved) until these new security rules change and come closer to something akin to reason. And yes, we have contacted the authorities and other to complain about this situation. We also contacted the airline to tell them why we were cancelling and to let them know that these kinds of things will impact their business. To each his own and all are free to travel as they like but I am not convinced treating my child like a prison inmate progressed the cause of national security one iota.

But... my daughter (then 13 years old) went through this last year!

I didn't bring it up in this thread, because I thought the new pat down would be different. But according to this description, it was exactly the same.

My daughter was pulled out of line at the Ottawa airport and a very friendly lady told us that she'd been randomly selected for a pat down. "You can stay with your daughter, if you like."

We stood in a partially enclosed booth, that was open on both ends and made of a semi-transparent material.

The lady ran her hands down my daughter's entire body, saying, "Now don't worry, I'm going to touch you here, and here, I'll be done really quick..."

Yes, she put both hands on my daughter's shoulders, up against her neck. No, it never occurred to either of us to think of it as "choking". Her hands only rested there for a moment before they continued down my daughter's chest.

She ran her hands along the inside of my daughter's waist band - not her whole hands, just the fingers to about the second knuckle, no more than an inch or two down.

My daughter giggled when her hands passed over her sides, and the lady apologized for tickling her. Then up inside her legs, following the seam of her blue jeans, and it was done!

There wasn't a single part of my daughter's body that wasn't checked, but neither of us felt uncomfortable or humiliated. My daughter actually spent the rest of the flight burbling on about how hilarious it was that SHE got picked out as a possible threat. Imagine that! Her dad and I took a little of the wind out of her sails when we told her that it was random. But she still thought it was cool.

Mind, my daughter loves to be the center of attention, no matter the excuse. I'm not going to pretend any of us are typical travellers, or that our experience in any way invalidates anyone else's. After all, our agent was very nice, while the other one sounds rather intimidating and rude.

It's just amazing to me how radically different the same experience can be for different people! One person's traumatic experience is another person's interesting little adventure.

 

[goofy4tink]

that made me giggle!!




We have flown to MCO from Boston and from Providence,
and I have to say the agents in Boston were always helpful, polite, kind to the kids, never an issue.
also in Providence same thing, I can't recall them being quite as good as Boston, but no issues.
In boston they always helped getting all our gear off the belt so we can move along and get the kids back into their shoes etc.........

in Orlando, its a whole different ball game if you ask me. no one has ever been rude, but certainly not as polite and helpful as others we experienced in Boston or Providence.

My experience as well. I have always found the TSA people at both Logan and Green to be very pleasant and helpful. MCO?? Not so much. For the most part they are okay, but they don't go so far as to be considered 'pleasant'.

What is an alternative?

Letting everyone through? Not checking anything circa 1950?

Just checking bags, not people?

Just checking people, not bags?

Just checking known terrorists and their bags?

We DO NOT know who, what kind of person, when, or where the next attack will happen... We just know it will.

As someone who flies 20 days a month, I am not bothered by TSA at all.

I will have no issue with the increased personal security screenings when they start screening all cargo. As someone has already mentioned, as soon as we adapt to an possible attack (such as the shoe bomber making us now remove our shoes, or the underwear bomber having us go through the backscatter machines and pat downs), the terrorists will change their tactics. We are reactive not proactive..and that's the problem. I truly think that now we face a much greater threat with cargo on passenger planes...and there is a lot of it.
Do I want myself or my teenaged dd being 'groped' by TSA agents? Nope. And I realize there are some out there who feel the word groped is too strong. But many have reported that they have had parts of their bodies grabbed that would have put a stranger in a park in prison if they had done the same thing. Many have reported not being 'groped'...it seems that this is an arbitrary thing..and that is somewhat concerning to me.

Well, I fly in 3 weeks...we'll see what happens. I will be flying out of Boston but flying out of MCO on the way home. We'll see what happens. I will be taking notes!!!

 

[rie'smom]

I'm late to the party, but I support LuvOrlando 100%. My background is in psychology, and I write professionally about phobias. Both the scanners and the invasive pat downs are what is known as "triggers." A trigger is, simply, something that causes a portion of the population distress, fear, or discomfort. It could be because that person was previously molested. It could be because that person is touch-sensitive (have any of the moms of kids with autistic spectrum disorders weighed in yet?). It could be for absolutely no discernible reason at all. But it doesn't make someone "hysterical" or "panicky" or a "conspiracy theorist" to have a negative reaction to a trigger.

Now, just about anything could trigger someone, somewhere. Some people are afraid of cats. Some are afraid of toothbrushes. We can't make the world entirely safe and comfortable for everyone. BUT, the visceral reactions being expressed both here and around the world indicate that the number of people who are being triggered by these new security measures is reasonably high. I haven't done a study, so I can't say precisely how high. But clearly high enough to be a problem.

Now add in a little matter known as civil liberties. Someone upthread quoted the 4th Amendment, so I won't rehash it. For those who say "you don't have to fly," that's true for me and apparently true for LuvOrlando. But it's not true for everyone. Flying is required by many employers. Why should someone have to choose between being groped/exposed or losing their job? What if your boss told you that you had to allow him/her to fondle you? Wouldn't you immediately file a sexual harassment suit?

I was particularly interested in eliza61's arguments regarding profiling. I am truly sorry that your family experienced those horrible things. But I'm confused as to why you are then okay with being automatically suspected of terrorism whenever you enter an airport. Just like the police officers who harass your family for being black and owning a Lexus, the TSA agents harass you for being American and choosing to fly. I don't see a lot of distinction there. Unless, perhaps, you would be fine with being harassed for owning a Lexus, as long as all Lexus owners of all ethnicities were being harassed? In which case it appears that the racial component is your only concern, not the fact of the harassment itself

I'm half-Jewish. I lost relatives in the Holocaust. So perhaps my opinions are colored by the very real fact that I, too, see a slippery slope. Hitler also started with policies that were designed to "keep the people safe." I never thought I would live to see the day when the American public would tolerate daily invasion into their lives in the name of "safety." I was appalled by the Patriot Act. The fact that it has now escalated into the choice between naked scanners and invasive pat downs, and people are STILL okay with that, has me completely boggled.

For those who keep saying that this will somehow "prevent" another 9/11, do you really believe that the terrorists (well-developed terror cells, not random idiots) are stupid? In case you hadn't noticed, we're still chasing previous threats. How many "underwear bombers" have there been in the past year? How many "shoe bombers" have there been since we started taking off our shoes? They adapt to whatever we're doing and change their MO.

Finally, okay, let's say that you're right. Security theater is going to prevent all future attacks. At what price, then, are we safe? September 11 wasn't an attack on those who died. It was an attack on our way of life. Their goal was to disrupt our freedom, and they've done a heck of a job at that. I, personally, would rather die in a free society than live in one controlled by fear.

Thank-you!

 

[pilotwife_02]

YAY, the ACLU has picked up on the issue! I kind of doubt a think tank like the ACLU would turn it's attention to this if there weren't legitimate ethical and legal issues on the table. I couldn't be happier!

Looks like I am not alone in my concerns, it also looks like the situation has caught the eye of minds far greater than my own. Maybe I will end up in Aruba and I will get to see Happy Potter in Universal after all. Did I mention YAY?

On the ACLU website look for "TSA Pat-down search abuse."

True! My DH's union is working with them (as well as other airline unions as I understand).

 

[jodifla]

But... my daughter (then 13 years old) went through this last year!

I didn't bring it up in this thread, because I thought the new pat down would be different. But according to this description, it was exactly the same.

My daughter was pulled out of line at the Ottawa airport and a very friendly lady told us that she'd been randomly selected for a pat down. "You can stay with your daughter, if you like."

We stood in a partially enclosed booth, that was open on both ends and made of a semi-transparent material.

The lady ran her hands down my daughter's entire body, saying, "Now don't worry, I'm going to touch you here, and here, I'll be done really quick..."

Yes, she put both hands on my daughter's shoulders, up against her neck. No, it never occurred to either of us to think of it as "choking". Her hands only rested there for a moment before they continued down my daughter's chest.

She ran her hands along the inside of my daughter's waist band - not her whole hands, just the fingers to about the second knuckle, no more than an inch or two down.

My daughter giggled when her hands passed over her sides, and the lady apologized for tickling her. Then up inside her legs, following the seam of her blue jeans, and it was done!

There wasn't a single part of my daughter's body that wasn't checked, but neither of us felt uncomfortable or humiliated. My daughter actually spent the rest of the flight burbling on about how hilarious it was that SHE got picked out as a possible threat. Imagine that! Her dad and I took a little of the wind out of her sails when we told her that it was random. But she still thought it was cool.

Mind, my daughter loves to be the center of attention, no matter the excuse. I'm not going to pretend any of us are typical travellers, or that our experience in any way invalidates anyone else's. After all, our agent was very nice, while the other one sounds rather intimidating and rude.

It's just amazing to me how radically different the same experience can be for different people! One person's traumatic experience is another person's interesting little adventure.

And if the attendant hadn't been friendly, but gruff, scary, barking orders? Or your daughter was scared and crying? Or perhaps autistic, and can't handle being touched?

If the TSA scanner grabbed her crotch area 4 times so hard your child almost burst into tears from pain? All being reported around the Interet.

Just because your experience was good one -thank goodness - doesn't discount the many stories already flying around -- and this process just started a few days ago.

Says a lot that the PILOTS unions and Flight attendants are calling foul.

 

[rie'smom]

Why can't you rasonably compare an ER visit with the TSA? I would think the ER visit would actually be more "invasive" as it can involve undresssing.

You keep using the term "invasive". Personally, I don't see anything invasive with the pat down. They are not going inside of my pants. As I said before, my DH got the new "pat down" method and it was not invasive at all. However, people don't seem to want to take the word from myself or the other traveller that just travelled and gave her personal experience with being involved in the pat down. Neither were invasive.
y opinion. What is so invasive of the TSA pat downs? They are not going under your child's clothing.

An ER visit is a medical emergency and procedures would be performed by professionals skilled in treating people. It can be life or death.

The airport TSA agents, on the other hand, are not doing anything to treat anyone. As I posted previously, not one person ever stopped from boarding a plane by a TSA agent has ever been prosecuted. There has not been enough evidence to take it to court. This tells me that the agents are either very subjective in who they choose to pick on or they're dumb. It's more than likely a combination.

Guess what? The agents can and have put their hands down people's pants. This is part of the new touches allowed by TSA agents. Yes, your breasts, your genitals, and your buttocks are all allowed to be touched with palms facing the body part. Feel like it may be invasive now?

 

[kaytieeldr]

I understand where you are coming from, I also understand that no one is going to touch my 11 yo DD breasts and crouch, no way, no how. Again same for DS. And according to some of these reports, it doesn't matter what the person wants. did you see the youtube about the man's mother in the wheel chair? There was no excuse for that, and yes I do believe that this did, can, and will happen again.

These agents spent years barely scanning luggage and not even looking at the scanner at the luggage went by, they could have cared less. This is the type of individual that is feeling you up. They have no business, Now, if they want to train some Dr's in how to do this, then fine, but sorry Jane and Joe off the street isn't feeling up anyone in my family.

Disagree. They're working, they're watching, they're trained, they're doing their jobs. I don't know anyone who works for the TSA or DHS, but you all try doing your jobs in public with the bulk of people you encounter resenting you or thinking you could care less, or you have no business doing what you're doing, or that you're not trained, or that you're just 'off the street'.

 

[pilotwife_02]

I will have no issue with the increased personal security screenings when they start screening all cargo. As someone has already mentioned, as soon as we adapt to an possible attack (such as the shoe bomber making us now remove our shoes, or the underwear bomber having us go through the backscatter machines and pat downs), the terrorists will change their tactics. We are reactive not proactive..and that's the problem. I truly think that now we face a much greater threat with cargo on passenger planes...and there is a lot of it.
Do I want myself or my teenaged dd being 'groped' by TSA agents? Nope. And I realize there are some out there who feel the word groped is too strong. But many have reported that they have had parts of their bodies grabbed that would have put a stranger in a park in prison if they had done the same thing. Many have reported not being 'groped'...it seems that this is an arbitrary thing..and that is somewhat concerning to me.

I agree with all this! I am not bothered by the "professionals" who do what they are supposed to do: tell you where they are touching, nice and sympathetic to the fact that they are dealing with children, disable people, people who may have emotional issues with a pat down. What I DO have a problem with is those agents who bark orders and treat anyone who wont' go through the AIT or isn't happy to have a pat down (who would be happy about) like they are jerks. No, I haven't seen this happen but YES I have hear other pilots who I trust say they have witnessed it.

 

[kaytieeldr]

For anyone who thinks this new "pat down" procedure is just fine and dandy,

Please take the time to watch this video!!!!


This is NOT acceptable!! <snip>
Please watch this video - research the complaints that are being made - see if you can find the videos of the actual groping that is going on now - and maybe you might reconsider your feelings on this matter..

I watched the video. I'm underwhelmed. It's a third party report, and it's presented too smoothly. There doesn't seem to the outrage one would expect from having one's parent maltreated. The fact that the man in the video is an actor makes it even more suspicious; his parents not ever being asked for identification during the entire process even moreso.

And while I haven't travelled since the changes, my experience with a wheelchair in the airport - especially one owned by the airport - is that the TSOs know when the chair is causing the alarm vs. when the passenger is.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I understand where you are coming from, I also understand that no one is going to touch my 11 yo DD breasts and crouch, no way, no how. Again same for DS. And according to some of these reports, it doesn't matter what the person wants. did you see the youtube about the man's mother in the wheel chair? There was no excuse for that, and yes I do believe that this did, can, and will happen again.

These agents spent years barely scanning luggage and not even looking at the scanner at the luggage went by, they could have cared less. This is the type of individual that is feeling you up. They have no business, Now, if they want to train some Dr's in how to do this, then fine, but sorry Jane and Joe off the street isn't feeling up anyone in my family.

Disagree. They're working, they're watching, they're trained, they're doing their jobs. I don't know anyone who works for the TSA or DHS, but you all try doing your jobs in public with the bulk of people you encounter resenting you or thinking you could care less, or you have no business doing what you're doing, or that you're not trained, or that you're just 'off the street'.

 

[LuvOrlando]

I have to be honest, I find the supporters to be perplexing mostly because very few are being clear over what it is, exactly, that they are supporting.

They are tearing away at complaints but they really aren't saying what the advantages are to the changes.

I don't think this issue is about whether or not security needed to be changed after 9/11 so debating that doesn't make sense. For discussions sake lets just agree that what was going on up through the summer was, more or less, tolerable. For me it was, for most people things were fine. I didn't mind the long lines and the rules about fitting stuff into my quart size baggie. I was OK with taking 6 months to get my passport. I was even ok with knowing that IF I made a mistake and sounded an alarm I would be pulled aside and searched. In the name of safety I was ok with all of that. Now lets move beyond that point to the current situation. The issue on the table is the most recent step, in particular, the fact that anyone of any age must be willing to subject themselves to either a radioactive test or a invasive bodily search. This is the point here on this thread.

The people who are taking an opposing view must feel that the new changes are, in fact, warranted and I'd really, genuinely like to know why they feel that way. I'm even willing to put aside the issue of the legality of the measures because I can't help but think there must be a reason. Do you know something I do not? Have there been threats the rest of us don't know about which justify the changes? What is it about your experience that says that the recent changes are necessary? Remember I am not at all saying we should go back to a pre 9/11 state, what I am asking is why should we be where we are in November 2010? No-one is really addressing this. There is a lot of back and forth over how come people like me are wrong and why the scanners are safe and how the touching doesn't bother you but what you're not doing is telling me why you are right. Tell me because maybe I am missing something. Maybe lots of us are missing something.

 

[ccgirl]

But... my daughter (then 13 years old) went through this last year!

I didn't bring it up in this thread, because I thought the new pat down would be different. But according to this description, it was exactly the same.

My daughter was pulled out of line at the Ottawa airport and a very friendly lady told us that she'd been randomly selected for a pat down. "You can stay with your daughter, if you like."

We stood in a partially enclosed booth, that was open on both ends and made of a semi-transparent material.

The lady ran her hands down my daughter's entire body, saying, "Now don't worry, I'm going to touch you here, and here, I'll be done really quick..."

Yes, she put both hands on my daughter's shoulders, up against her neck. No, it never occurred to either of us to think of it as "choking". Her hands only rested there for a moment before they continued down my daughter's chest.

She ran her hands along the inside of my daughter's waist band - not her whole hands, just the fingers to about the second knuckle, no more than an inch or two down.

My daughter giggled when her hands passed over her sides, and the lady apologized for tickling her. Then up inside her legs, following the seam of her blue jeans, and it was done!

There wasn't a single part of my daughter's body that wasn't checked, but neither of us felt uncomfortable or humiliated. My daughter actually spent the rest of the flight burbling on about how hilarious it was that SHE got picked out as a possible threat. Imagine that! Her dad and I took a little of the wind out of her sails when we told her that it was random. But she still thought it was cool.

Mind, my daughter loves to be the center of attention, no matter the excuse. I'm not going to pretend any of us are typical travellers, or that our experience in any way invalidates anyone else's. After all, our agent was very nice, while the other one sounds rather intimidating and rude.

It's just amazing to me how radically different the same experience can be for different people! One person's traumatic experience is another person's interesting little adventure.

Well..aren't you just awful for letting your DD get subjected to that. (said sarcastically). Sounds like she was well prepared. As I said before, I think it is important to prepare your children for what may happen. I think children get very afraid when they are ill-prepared.

An ER visit is a medical emergency and procedures would be performed by professionals skilled in treating people. It can be life or death.

The airport TSA agents, on the other hand, are not doing anything to treat anyone. As I posted previously, not one person ever stopped from boarding a plane by a TSA agent has ever been prosecuted. There has not been enough evidence to take it to court. This tells me that the agents are either very subjective in who they choose to pick on or they're dumb. It's more than likely a combination.

Guess what? The agents can and have put their hands down people's pants. This is part of the new touches allowed by TSA agents. Yes, your breasts, your genitals, and your buttocks are all allowed to be touched with palms facing the body part. Feel like it may be invasive now?

No, still not invasive. The ER physician was doing what he/she was trained to do and the TSA agent is doing what he/she is trained to do. My DH had it last weekend and as I said many times, it was not invasive at all. They put their hands around the inside of his waist. They did not shove their hands down his pants and hold on to his testicles as some are reported they have "heard". They did run their palm over them on the outside of his pants. Again, we were prepared for this. We do not feel the TSA agent was doing this to get his jollies. He was doing his job. He had to do this because he, too, moved during the backscatter.

Obviously, we are just on different sides of this opinion.

 

[punkin]

Magpie, your daughter's pat down did not happen in the US. Does TSA run things up in Canada too? I doubt it.